A Biblical Response on Race

[TCassidy]

It doesn't matter why someone is less qualified. I believe you're trolling.

You made a statement that lumps certain members of the community in a category of "less qualified" than others. I asked you why. Why are they less qualified? What has caused them to be "less qualified?" Either answer the question or withdraw your assertion.

And don't ever accuse me of trolling again.

 

[JonC]

Enough of that same tired excuse from white America. There is a $130,000 wealth gap between the average white family and the average black family in this country. White people have benefitted from what happened in the past.

Then care about the truth. It is disingenuous for white Christians to act like after 400 something years of oppression that suddenly after 50 or so years, all of the effects, economic and otherwise, have been wiped away.

There you go again, rambling on about how white people (as if there is one single inclusive group) has benefited when over 20 million people who identify themselves as white live in poverty (whites are the lowest percentage, but my point is your overall picture is unrealistic).

I agreed with you that minorities who are several generations in America are at a disadvantage because of socioeconomic factors related to the racism of the past. I never questioned that. My argument is that the fix is not more racism but a society where race is not the determining factor.

And there you go again talking like you don't know what you're talking about. Where has the white person been denied the opportunity? You see it the way you see it because you're seeing something I haven't said.

I was denied a position because I was white. I'm not seeing it because something you have not said but something that I've experienced. But unlike "some", I don't hold it against another race in general. I did get the position a couple of years later (don't want to keep you at the edge of your seat wondering ).

And again, if you discriminate based on race then you are a racist. It does not matter if you are denying or advancing a man because he is white or he is black. If your choice is based on race then that is racism regardless of the reason.

 

[Zaac]

No, it is not. My veteran status is based on what I did, not on my skin tone or how I was treated. It was because I laid my life on the line to protect our way of life.

Yes it is. Consideration is consideration You felt your service deserved consideration and consideration was given. When Blacks say their experiences with police deserve the same type of consideration and empathy for what's been taking place, it is not received.

Your status received empathy and consideration. Christians don't do the same thing for Blacks and the systemic killing that's taking place.

 

[JonC]

Very few white Americans have inherited wealth. America has had Affirmative Action (an euphemism for institutionalized discrimination against whites) for blacks for three generations. The only thing crippling the black community are Democrats, black leaders, and groups like BLM. Blacks should be driving the criminals out of their neighborhoods, rather than going to war with police -- as one of many examples of why the black community is really suffering.



And, yet your post is echoing political propaganda.

As is your's, brother. Just because some politician agrees with me that Affirmative Action is nothing but institutionalized racism and uses it as propaganda does not make it untrue. For my part, I came about my view honestly . But if you think my position is just propaganda then explain to me how affirmative action is not racism.

 

[Smyth]

Enough of that same tired excuse from white America. There is a $130,000 wealth gap between the average white family and the average black family in this country. White people have benefitted from what happened in the past.

Half of that wealth gap is probably nothing more than the average age of whites vs. blacks. Whites on average are older, and older people have more wealth. A larger number of black women are single mothers. A larger number of black men are in prison. This isn't something whites do to them, this is a poverty-causing thing blacks do to themselves.

Then care about the truth. It is disingenuous for white Christians to act like after 400 something years of oppression

Black crime and single-parenthood has gone up in the last few black generations. Black SAT scores haven't improved. Many Asian immigrants come from highly oppressive countries (for many generations, to this day), and they outperform whites when they arrive. There's no link between the oppression you allege and the black condition today. It's just racist propaganda to blame history for blacks today.

Black privilege is why such blatantly racist false blame against whites isn't just tolerated, but is the only Politically acceptable position anyone is allowed to express. But, I don't care for PC, I care for the Truth.

 

[Zaac]

There you go again, rambling on about how white people (as if there is one single inclusive group) has benefited when over 20 million people who identify themselves as white live in poverty (whites are the lowest percentage, but my point is your overall picture is unrealistic).

And there you go again acting as though just because they are in poverty, they aren't still more privileged than the majority of minorities. Gosh why do you think DT is attracting so many uneducated, poor white people?

I agreed with you that minorities who are several generations in America are at a disadvantage because of socioeconomic factors related to the racism of the past. I never questioned that. My argument is that the fix is not more racism but a society where race is not the determining factor.

You think AA is racism. Racism wouldn't consider another "race".

I was denied a position because I was white. I'm not seeing it because something you have not said but something that I've experienced. But unlike "some", I don't hold it against another race in general. I did get the position a couple of years later (don't want to keep you at the edge of your seat wondering ).

That's your experience and I'm sorry you had to experience that. But what you experienced was not AA.

And again, if you discriminate based on race then you are a racist.

Again not necessarily so.

It does not matter if you are denying or advancing a man because he is white or he is black. If your choice is based on race then that is racism regardless of the reason.

AA is not based on race.

 

[TCassidy]

Christians don't do the same thing for Blacks and the systemic killing that's taking place.

That is a slander of every true, Spirit filled Christian on the planet. You are the one who keeps bring race into the discussion.

Two things for you to remember. First the words of Morgan Freeman, "the best way to end racism today is to “stop talking about it.” According to this very wise man it is you who is perpetuating racism.

Second, Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Jew nor Greek. Ethnic equality.

Bond nor Free. Social equality.

Male nor Female. Gender equality.

Believe it. Practice it. Stop dividing God's people.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
19 . . . he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[JonC]

And there you go again acting as though just because they are in poverty, they aren't still more privileged than the majority of minorities. Gosh why do you think DT is attracting so many uneducated, poor white people?



You think AA is racism. Racism wouldn't consider another "race".



That's your experience and I'm sorry you had to experience that. But what you experienced was not AA.


Again not necessarily so.


AA is not based on race.

Yes, I know. Your ideological version of AA does not exist (or are those links I provided "radical right" lies as well).

This discussion is more about politics and less about people. You concerned about a race and the
repercussions of the past. You seem to characterize people in terms of their race, speak of the advantage of white men while the truth lies beneath this facade and with the over 20 million who live in poverty. It is not about race but about people. We are created in God's image, and the repercussions which should drive our agenda is not socioeconomic but eternal. Share the gospel. Feed the poor. Help the widow and orphan. Do these things REGARDLESS OF RACE.

For me, I don't care about that "larger picture". The ends do not justify the means. I'm keeping it simple - If you discriminate against a person based on their race then you are a racist. Being a racist is anti-Christian.

 

[TCassidy]

AA is not based on race.

What is it based on?

 

[Zaac]

Half of that wealth gap is probably nothing more than the average age of whites vs. blacks. Whites on average are older, and older people have more wealth. A larger number of black women are single mothers. A larger number of black men are in prison. This isn't something whites do to them, this is a poverty-causing thing blacks do to themselves.

In other words you're making stuff up. Why don't you actually research and see where the gap comes from?

Black crime and single-parenthood has gone up in the last few black generations.

And we all know that the policing system in America has nothing to do with those measures.

Black SAT scores haven't improved.

They should let you take the Black SAT and see what your scores look like.

Many Asian immigrants come from highly oppressive countries (for many generations, to this day), and they outperform whites when they arrive. There's no link between the oppression you allege and the black condition today. It's just racist propaganda to blame history for blacks today.

yes you've been schooled in GOP propaganda. Must marginalize.

Black privilege is why such blatantly racist false blame against whites isn't just tolerated, but is the only Politically acceptable position anyone is allowed to express. But, I don't care for PC, I care for the Truth.

Now THAT was funny.

 

[Zaac]

Yes, I know. Your ideological version of AA does not exist (or are those links I provided "radical right" lies as well).

AA exists as it's supposed to in many areas throughout the country.

This discussion is more about politics and less about people. You concerned about a race and the
repercussions of the past.

This discussion is more about how white Christians treat folks whose skin color differs from their own.

You seem to characterize people in terms of their race, speak of the advantage of white men while the truth lies beneath this facade and with the over 20 million who live in poverty.

You seem to keep attempting to put up the facade that living in poverty takes away privilege.

It is not about race but about people.

It's about white people and people of every other skin color.

We are created in God's image, and the repercussions which should drive our agenda is not socioeconomic but eternal.

I agree. But Jesus didn't deal with the eternal without dealing with the socioeconomical.

Share the gospel. Feed the poor. Help the widow and orphan. Do these things REGARDLESS OF RACE.

I agree. But that doesn't stop those who are privileged from complaining about "handouts", etc.

For me, I don't care about that "larger picture". The ends do not justify the means. I'm keeping it simple - If you discriminate against a person based on their race then you are a racist. Being a racist is anti-Christian.

[/QUOTE]

And you again seem to think what you're defining is racism. It is not.

I'm going to bed.

 

[Smyth]

In other words you're making stuff up. Why don't you actually research and see where the gap comes from?

You presented the gap, you show where it comes from.

They should let you take the Black SAT and see what your scores look like.

I might do that, if I lived in Rwanda, or were applying to the College of Recreational Drugs.

 

[Zaac]

You presented the gap, you show where it comes from.

I know where it comes from. You're the one who doesn't as you continue to make stuff up.

 

[JonC]

AA exists as it's supposed to in many areas throughout the country.



This discussion is more about how white Christians treat folks whose skin color differs from their own.



You seem to keep attempting to put up the facade that living in poverty takes away privilege.


It's about white people and people of every other skin color.


I agree. But Jesus didn't deal with the eternal without dealing with the socioeconomical.


I agree. But that doesn't stop those who are privileged from complaining about "handouts", etc.

Your comments betray you.This is not, nor has ever been, a discussion about “how white people treat folks whose skin color differs from their own.” It is about how people treat others whose skin color differs from their own. It is not about “white people and people of every other skin color.” It is about people regardless of skin color.

Jesus did, actually, deal with the eternal without dealing with the socioeconomic. He taught a love that was not dependent on race. What you suggest is not Christian. It is racism. The Kingdom is not of this world. It is not dependent on race or gender. Those barriers which you want to build up are exactly what the gospel has torn down. I am sorry that you have experienced or have been taught whatever has caused race to become such a primary factor in your life and view, but the gospel is not about “turning the tables” and discriminating against one race to elevate another. It is not about creating a society where wealth and poverty are evenly divided among the races. In terms of the world, it is more individualistic than that. It is about another Kingdom all together.

One of the primary things that Christ commanded His people was that they love their neighbors as themselves. This cannot exist in a society where race is the determining factor. The problem is that a lot of folks who call themselves Christians believe that their worldly classification as a minority status justifies their own racism. Only the love of Christ can lead them out of this blindness and into the Light. Where they see a white man, and where other's may see a black or Hispanic man, the faithful Christian sees a man.

What you are doing is trying to justify racism. It was wrong when Whitfield justified slavery on the grounds of evangelism. It was wrong when a man was denied the opportunity to attend college simply because he was black. It was wrong when my sister-in-law was refused service because she “looked Hispanic”. And it is wrong when a man is denied an opportunity because his skin is white. You are trying to justify what cannot be reconciled to Christianity.

Racism - racial prejudice or discrimination. Discrimination - the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually, prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination> (Webster's dictionary)

When race becomes the determining factor it is racism. It is racial discrimination. You can pretend it is not racism (we've had centuries of men pretending that it is not racism) and you can pretend it is justified (we've had centuries of men pretending their racism is justified), but that has no bearing on the truth. A man who would deny another man an opportunity because of his race is exactly like the men decades ago who would deny another man an opportunity because of his race. There is no difference. You are right that racism exists today, but you seem blind as to the extent of its existence.

 

[Revmitchell]

So what has happened is certain cultures tend to generate suspicion. For example, wearing a hoodie in the middle of summer, with the hood pulled over the head as to hide the face. Doing this is contrary to reason and good common sense. Police often see this as suspicious and it does in fact generate more attention from them in some situations. Those people who wear that do not like the attention they get from it so they have worked to tie the culture to their skin color in order to gain sympathy as a victim and thereby getting the police to stop giving them the added attention. When that did not work they escalated their victim status by making exaggerated claims of police brutality due to their skin color. They work to prop this up by misrepresenting and or exaggerating what goes on between the police and communities predominately lived in by a single race. Now it as escalated even further by the murdering of cops.

There are a number of issues that certain races want to be legal and or not gain extra attention from law enforcement such as excessively baggy clothes, smoking pot, hanging out in the streets at all hours of the night etc. They are upset that these cultures and lifestyles draw extra attention from law enforcement. They know that they cannot gain any sympathy as victims from stating what the real issues are so they have to escalate things. In this case it is the beginning of a race war.

It is dishonest, it is evil and it needs to stop.

 

[Zaac]

Your comments betray you.This is not, nor has ever been, a discussion about “how white people treat folks whose skin color differs from their own.” It is about how people treat others whose skin color differs from their own. It is not about “white people and people of every other skin color.” It is about people regardless of skin color.

What is it with you and this continuous attempts to change what I wrote? I didn't say white people. I said white Christians. Now let that sink in.

Jesus did, actually, deal with the eternal without dealing with the socioeconomic.

The ministry of Jesus was always accompanied by Him meeting needs.

He taught a love that was not dependent on race. What you suggest is not Christian.

Sure it is. YOUR misunderstanding which is evidenced by your repeated attempts to reword what I have said is not CHristian.

It is racism.

The version you may keep trying to create might be. But nothing I have said is.

The Kingdom is not of this world. It is not dependent on race or gender. Those barriers which you want to build up are exactly what the gospel has torn down.

Now you're speaking foolishness as I have suggested no barriers.

[SNIP]

Jon I'm done having this discussion with you or anyone else who attempts to change what I wrote on the page. When practiced as it was designed, and it is still done, there is nothing racist about AA.

You don't get that because you've shown repeatedly that you've got a somewhat spurious definition of what is/ is not racism.

Good day and I will not be speaking to you about anything else in this thread.

 

[JonC]

What is it with you and this continuous attempts to change what I wrote? I didn't say white people. I said white Christians. Now let that sink in.

I know that you said "white Christians". That is my point. Now let that sink in.

Your remarks seem to be caught up in race instead of the gospel. Some Christians do treat others differently because of their race. You are right about that. But it is not an issue inherent to all "white Christians" and it is not a problem limited to "white Christians". If it is a problem then it is a problem within the Church. What I am trying to get you to understand is that Christians are children of God. We are characterized by Christ, not the color of our skin. When we see each other we should see a brother in Christ and treat each other as family (not give an advantage to one person because he is a minority, but instead we should not allow race to influence our actions). Racism will never end as long as we use race as a criteria. The color of a person's skin is superficial. It should not determine how that person is treated...period.

Take to heart what TCassidy offered. Those words were not his own:

Second, Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Jew nor Greek. Ethnic equality.

Bond nor Free. Social equality.

Male nor Female. Gender equality.

Believe it. Practice it. Stop dividing God's people.

 

[Zaac]

I know that you said "white Christians". That is my point. Now let that sink in.

One last reply and I'm done with replying to you.

If you know that I said white CHristians there shouldn't have been any point in you trying to misconstrue what I said. Now you let that sink in too.

Your remarks seem to be caught up in race instead of the gospel.

The OP asked for a Biblical response to race. I addressed what I have seen to be the problem and why there hasn't been a Biblical response to the race issue in this country.

It makes folks uncomfortable. My remarks addressed why there hasn't been a Biblical response from white Christians on the radical right. And you confirmed it.

Some Christians do treat others differently because of their race. You are right about that. But it is not an issue inherent to all "white Christians" and it is not a problem limited to "white Christians".

And did I say all white Christians? I spoke to what white Christians on the radical right were doing. And it's the same thing that a lot of them were doing during the 60s and slavery which is pretending like all was well and turning their heads as blacks and other minorities were murdered.

If it is a problem then it is a problem within the Church. What I am trying to get you to understand is that Christians are children of God. We are characterized by Christ, not the color of our skin.

Did I mention the color of anyone's skin in my initial post? You're not telling me anything I don't know. I simply expanded on why one group was not getting it.

When we see each other we should see a brother in Christ and treat each other as family (not give an advantage to one person because he is a minority, but instead we should not allow race to influence our actions).

That's within the church. IT ain't happening within the church just as it ain't happening on this board because a lot of a certain majority DOES see race and stereotypes and marginalizes the worth of life of the minority based upon those stereotypes.

You may not want to hear that but tough cookies. It's the truth. It it's on display at the RNC. It's on display in this forum. And it's on display in the Church.

If some of you are the representation of Christ, it's no wonder a lot of folks don't want to hear what others have to say about the Gospel. Because as was the case with Jesus, people don't want to hear how much you care until you show them how much you care.

So talk a good game. But when you are okay with marginalizing the lives of people based upon race, when you can't even acknowledge that there are economic advantages that have been gained by a majority of white people because of race,when you can't admit that there is a systemic problem with policing throughout this country based upon race, then just stop talking because I deal with folks who are real about what's going on.

And don't tell me about a Biblical response to racism when your words betray you about a Biblical response that wants to ignore the real racism because you obviously don't know what it is, in exchange of something you think is racism.

Racism will never end as long as we use race as a criteria. The color of a person's skin is superficial. It should not determine how that person is treated...period.

Pure foolishness because you act as though 450 years of racial advantage in employment and access to employment, in education and access to education, in authority and access to authority makes the color of a person's skin superficial.

You're being dishonest if you believe that there are not all sorts of advantages heaped upon white people in comparison to minorities because of their white skin..
If that were not the case, you'd have more Senators of color. Black students are suspended far more than their white counterparts by white administrators.Black children are sentenced many times more than their white counterparts for the same offenses.

And example after example after example that shows a bias against people of color in this country. Deny it if you wish. It exists.

And just as Jesus designed a way to let His people sit at the table, he's designed a way to have minorities to sit at the table in an environment and a country that is increasingly racist and racially biased.

Take to heart what TCassidy offered. Those words were not his own:

Second, Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Jew nor Greek. Ethnic equality.

Bond nor Free. Social equality.

Male nor Female. Gender equality.

Believe it. Practice it. Stop dividing God's people.

When I see God's people acting like God's people, there will be nothing for me to say. But as long as we walk in this continued racial bias and outright racism, you can expect me to call it what it is.

 

[Revmitchell]

The op in no way asked for a biblical response to race.

 

[JonC]

One last reply and I'm done with replying to you.

If you know that I said white CHristians there shouldn't have been any point in you trying to misconstrue what I said. Now you let that sink in too.



The OP asked for a Biblical response to race. I addressed what I have seen to be the problem and why there hasn't been a Biblical response to the race issue in this country.

It makes folks uncomfortable. My remarks addressed why there hasn't been a Biblical response from white Christians on the radical right. And you confirmed it.



And did I say all white Christians? I spoke to what white Christians on the radical right were doing. And it's the same thing that a lot of them were doing during the 60s and slavery which is pretending like all was well and turning their heads as blacks and other minorities were murdered.



Did I mention the color of anyone's skin in my initial post? You're not telling me anything I don't know. I simply expanded on why one group was not getting it.



That's within the church. IT ain't happening within the church just as it ain't happening on this board because a lot of a certain majority DOES see race and stereotypes and marginalizes the worth of life of the minority based upon those stereotypes.

You may not want to hear that but tough cookies. It's the truth. It it's on display at the RNC. It's on display in this forum. And it's on display in the Church.

If some of you are the representation of Christ, it's no wonder a lot of folks don't want to hear what others have to say about the Gospel. Because as was the case with Jesus, people don't want to hear how much you care until you show them how much you care.

So talk a good game. But when you are okay with marginalizing the lives of people based upon race, when you can't even acknowledge that there are economic advantages that have been gained by a majority of white people because of race,when you can't admit that there is a systemic problem with policing throughout this country based upon race, then just stop talking because I deal with folks who are real about what's going on.

And don't tell me about a Biblical response to racism when your words betray you about a Biblical response that wants to ignore the real racism because you obviously don't know what it is, in exchange of something you think is racism.



Pure foolishness because you act as though 450 years of racial advantage in employment and access to employment, in education and access to education, in authority and access to authority makes the color of a person's skin superficial.

You're being dishonest if you believe that there are not all sorts of advantages heaped upon white people in comparison to minorities because of their white skin..
If that were not the case, you'd have more Senators of color. Black students are suspended far more than their white counterparts by white administrators.Black children are sentenced many times more than their white counterparts for the same offenses.

And example after example after example that shows a bias against people of color in this country. Deny it if you wish. It exists.

And just as Jesus designed a way to let His people sit at the table, he's designed a way to have minorities to sit at the table in an environment and a country that is increasingly racist and racially biased.

Take to heart what TCassidy offered. Those words were not his own:




When I see God's people acting like God's people, there will be nothing for me to say. But as long as we walk in this continued racial bias and outright racism, you can expect me to call it what it is.

Zaac,

I already addressed your charge. Of course families have benefited from the past. My family came to the US generations ago from Ireland. My grandparents worked in a cotton mill and lived in homes owned by the mill. Everything they bought had to be bought on credit (to the company) as they worked 12 hours a day 6 days a week.. And you know what? Rich white men benefited from their situation. Whoop de do. My identity is in Christ, not my race. My point was that more racism is not the solution for the results of past racism.

There is, I believe, a thread of racism in the Church. I am not saying that all Christians are racists. I’m not even saying that the majority are as my experience speaks otherwise. I’ve known instances where white people were not welcomed in a church because of their race. I also know a couple that left our study group when a black family joined the group. I am not so foolish as to believe that racism no longer exists. But I am not racist enough to attribute the sin to one category of people. I believe the pastor in the OP video was spot on.

What I find disconcerting is when professing Christians integrate the notion of racial victimization into their faith and apply the role of “oppressor” to the Body of Christ through discrimination. This is different from dealing with race issues within the Church (which is appropriate). This is taking upon oneself an identity based not only on past oppression but on race.

When I involve myself in this type of discussion I cannot help but think of the saints who rejoiced that they were found worthy to suffer for the name of Christ. I reflect on the words of those who sang as they were covered in tar, hung, and set ablaze. I consider Paul, an ethnic Jew who came to know Christ and valued the life of his Gentile brother above his own. And then I re-read this post and can’t help but wonder if we are not indeed looking at two distinct people groups divided not by race but by Christ. And that is the determining factor. Not the color of one’s skin but the state of their heart.