A Biblical Response on Race

[Zaac]

Zaac,

I already addressed your charge. Of course families have benefited from the past. My family came to the US generations ago from Ireland. My grandparents worked in a cotton mill and lived in homes owned by the mill. Everything they bought had to be bought on credit (to the company) as they worked 12 hours a day 6 days a week.. And you know what? Rich white men benefited from their situation. Whoop de do. My identity is in Christ, not my race. My point was that more racism is not the solution for the results of past racism.

And your identity in Christ should allow you to empathize with the plight of others. Nobody said for identity to be wrapped in race. In response to the OP, I said that a lot of white Christians were not loving their neighbors as themselves because of a lack of or in many instances a complete disappearance of empathy.

You think it's racist to let people at the table because of the color of their skin. I think it's racists to not make an effort to correct 400+ years of non-consideration because of skin color with consideration because of skin color. No one else has been excluded. But an effort is required to consider folks of color.

There is, I believe, a thread of racism in the Church. I am not saying that all Christians are racists. I’m not even saying that the majority are as my experience speaks otherwise. I’ve known instances where white people were not welcomed in a church because of their race. I also know a couple that left our study group when a black family joined the group. I am not so foolish as to believe that racism no longer exists. But I am not racist enough to attribute the sin to one category of people. I believe the pastor in the OP video was spot on.

And I didn't say that I disagreed with the pastor in the OP. I simply said that part of the reason is what I stated earlier.

What I find disconcerting is when professing Christians integrate the notion of racial victimization into their faith and apply the role of “oppressor” to the Body of Christ through discrimination.

What is disconcerting for me is when professing Christians (1) misrepresent what I DID say and (2) act as though , as evidenced by this board, that there is not a problem within the church.

A lot of white Christians marginalize the lives of non-Whites. They dismiss their lives and their experiences. And then they pretend like 400+ years of privilege has not left them more privileged than everybody else.

And then the same folks want to tell the folks who they enslaved, obstructed and stole from in terms of invention, creativity and otherwise what they should be doing to "overcome". All the while supporting a man and legislative policy and a form of policing that leaves them dead with no due process of law.

So as I said, and I know it's somebody else's words, but people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

You can talk about AA and racism and all other sorts of things that Christians shouldn't be doing. But in addressing the OP, you can't give a Biblical response to race without acknowledging the construct and the fact that it is STILL a factor in how folks in the church treat others. I spoke to an aspect of how a lot of white Christians can't respond without acknowledging some other things.

This is different from dealing with race issues within the Church (which is appropriate). This is taking upon oneself an identity based not only on past oppression but on race.

This is dealing with reality. You want to give a Biblical response to race. Then deal with the reality of what folks are experiencing from the church about race.

When I involve myself in this type of discussion I cannot help but think of the saints who rejoiced that they were found worthy to suffer for the name of Christ. I reflect on the words of those who sang as they were covered in tar, hung, and set ablaze. I consider Paul, an ethnic Jew who came to know Christ and valued the life of his Gentile brother above his own. And then I re-read this post and can’t help but wonder if we are not indeed looking at two distinct people groups divided not by race but by Christ. And that is the determining factor. Not the color of one’s skin but the state of their heart.

And I look at what you said and the state of race in the church, and I say you're being ignorant of the reality when it comes to how race is dealt with in the church.

It remains the most segregated period of the week in many regards. Yet folks want to act as though race is not an issue in the church.

On this board and throughout SBC, I hear the same stereotypical WRONG things about how churchfolk feel about black people or black lives and it always seems to be congruent with what Fox News has said.

White Christians can't give a Biblical response to race without acknowledging that this whole skin color thing IS an issue that often dictates how they respond. A lot of the Black Christians do seem to get this, but it's perhaps because they have been on the receiving end of the very things that white Christians continue to act like are a non-issue.

So I say again, the Christian response to race has to be one of empathy as seen in the Second Greatest Commandment. You are my neighbor and I care about what you're experiencing because I'd want someone to care about me the same way.

But rather than extend empathy, again as witnessed on this board and throughout the church, a lot of white Christians extend the same dis-attached, lack of empathy that was present during Jim Crow and slavery.

Take that and place it on top of a majority white run policing and judicial system that has discriminated and jailed disproportionate numbers of minorities while taking a lesser tact with their white counterparts, and the murders of unarmed black and brown people where the officers have been trained to portray the black people in an almost Huckleberry Finnish like stereotyped way, and then try to turn around and say that AA is racist because it is giving the recipients of 400+ years of injustice a chance to be considered...

Well it sits right up there in big bold letters as to why a lot of white Christians can't give a Biblical response on race. A lot of white Christians don't think there's an issue where there is. And they think there is an issue where there isn't.

I've seen it time and time again where when Christians ( Black, White, Brown,etc.) talk about the things of God, they are civil and generally in one accord.

But the minute they are asked to apply what's in the word to what is going on in the world, there comes a political division right along race lines.

And without fail, one group thinks there is a problem while the other thinks there isn't.

 

[Smyth]

It remains the most segregated period of the week in many regards. Yet folks want to act as though race is not an issue in the church.

I have never heard any racist statement or indication of blacks not being welcome in any predominately white church I have ever attended. Predominately white churches are not guilty of segregation.

Blacks, though, are guilty of segregation. Some of it just cultural preference. A lot of it is racism. Even as a black man, I don't want to attend predominately black churches and deal with their racial obsession and racism every single Sunday. In most white churches, race is a complete non-issue. If race is an issue, it's a weak white pastor pathetically apologizing for 400 year of oppression of blacks and falsely accusing the whites in his church for the lack of blacks in the pews.

 

[Zaac]

I have never heard any racist statement or indication of blacks not being welcome in any predominately white church I have ever attended.

There are a lot of predominately white churches you have NOT attended.

Predominately white churches are not guilty of segregation

.
Yes because you have now attended them all and know that they don't. I have attended some that do so your statement is false.

Blacks, though, are guilty of segregation. Some of it just cultural preference. A lot of it is racism.

So you can bring yourself to understand that Blacks segregate. But can't find it in yourself to comprehend that Whites segregate too?

Even as a black man, I don't want to attend predominately black churches and deal with their racial obsession and racism every single Sunday.

You've obviously attended very few predominately black churches.

In most white churches, race is a complete non-issue.

yeah right.

If race is an issue, it's a weak white pastor pathetically apologizing for 400 year of oppression of blacks and falsely accusing the whites in his church for the lack of blacks in the pews.

 

[Smyth]

There are a lot of predominately white churches you have NOT attended.

I've attended a good random sample of churches. Also, if some white preacher were spewing the same kind of racism that black preachers normally spew, there would be youtube videos exposing and denouncing the racism. But, for a a black to be racist, it's not matter of course.

.

 

[Zaac]

I've attended a good random sample of churches.

Sampling is a science that involves doing certain things so that you may say that your sample is representative of a whole.

It might just be best to say that the churches you have attended were like this.

Also, if some white preacher were spewing the same kind of racism that black preachers normally spew,

Such as?

there would be youtube videos exposing and denouncing the racism.

There's quite a bit out there. Who knows? Maybe you haven't been looking in the right places.

But, for a a black to be racist, it's not matter of course.

Not sure what you're trying to say with this comment.

What's the definition of racism that you're using to make your statement?

 

[JonC]

A lot of white Christians marginalize the lives of non-Whites. They dismiss their lives and their experiences.

Yes, you are right. And a lot of non-white "Christians" and non-white non-Christians marginalize the lives of whites. We do not need to divide the Body of Christ into races to address racism (whether it is racism against white people or racism against a minority group). The Church needs to recognize and recognize racism as sin, not participate in sin. And Christians need to love their neighbors...even their white neighbors...as themselves (which includes not classifying them in accordance to their race but dealing with them as children of the same Father). We need to speak of Christ, of love, of the gospel. We need unity in Christ, not division by race.

There are a lot of predominately white churches you have NOT attended.

And there are a lot of predominately white churches you have NOT attended.

Did I mention the color of anyone's skin in my initial post? You're not telling me anything I don't know. I simply expanded on why one group was not getting it..

I can accept that. I still disagree with your division, but I can accept that there exists a population that does not "get" racial issues in our nation. Your comments have reinforced my position as well. Why do you think that a segment of black "Christians" is not "getting it"?

Where we disagree is that I believe we should deal with racism in the Church as the Body of Christ (racism is racism regardless of the color of one's skin...it is the same sin). You seem to think it best to deal with the racism of white Christians separately from the racism of Christians who belong to a minority race. Why do you think it necessary to divide the Church by race in order to deal with this sin?

 

[Zaac]

Yes, you are right. And a lot of non-white "Christians" and non-white non-Christians marginalize the lives of whites. We do not need to divide the Body of Christ into races to address racism (whether it is racism against white people or racism against a minority group). The Church needs to recognize and recognize racism as sin, not participate in sin. And Christians need to love their neighbors...even their white neighbors...as themselves (which includes not classifying them in accordance to their race but dealing with them as children of the same Father). We need to speak of Christ, of love, of the gospel. We need unity in Christ, not division by race.

And there are a lot of predominately white churches you have NOT attended.


I can accept that. I still disagree with your division, but I can accept that there exists a population that does not "get" racial issues in our nation. Your comments have reinforced my position as well. Why do you think that a segment of black "Christians" is not "getting it"?

Where we disagree is that I believe we should deal with racism in the Church as the Body of Christ (racism is racism regardless of the color of one's skin...it is the same sin). You seem to think it best to deal with the racism of white Christians separately from the racism of Christians who belong to a minority race. Why do you think it necessary to divide the Church by race in order to deal with this sin?

Racism is an issue of power and the right of one group to exercise that power over another because of their believed superiority.

I don't think it's necessary to divide anyone. But the racists within the church do.

 

[JonC]

Racism is an issue of power and the right of one group to exercise that power over another because of their believed superiority.

I don't think it's necessary to divide anyone. But the racists within the church do.

I agree. There are socioeconomic disadvantages faced by established minority races in our nation. Unfortunately, those responsible are dead. That is why I suggest that we need to discuss how to help people (not races) in such a way as we do not adopt their misguided ideologies.

I also agree that it is not necessary to divide the Church. This is perhaps enough common ground for you and I, and maybe a good criteria to discuss what can be done to help those in need. Perhaps we could focus on the fact that to divide the Church is an anti-Christian sentiment. Categorically speaking of white Christians, black Christians, white congregations, Hispanic congregations, etc. by pulling out one group in the context of this thread is sinful because we are called to be united in Christ rather than divided by race. What we can and should do is look at people rather than people groups. My brother cannot feed his family, cannot get a job, is subject to discrimination and racism, is losing hope, cannot see a way out…etc… That is where we start – with people.

And lastly, I also agree that there are racists within the church. I think that this is obvious as, unfortunately, the Church has in many ways become a microcosm of our culture. The richness of our diversity is being used by some people to form barriers within the body of Christ. But we are called out and called to another purpose. Racism cannot and will not exist in our churches when our churches have their eyes on Christ. A truly Spirit filled, obedient church will never speak of white Christians and black Christians as different groups but instead will see brethren united in Christ and functioning as the Body of Christ, for God’s glorification as we wait in hope for that final consummation when we will be made perfect in the image of our Lord and Savior. Far too many churches have taken their eyes of the prize and have detoured from the race and have become tangled in a never ending web of social issues and diverse worldly ideologies. It is simple. Look to Christ, not the world.

If you believe that I have misrepresented your view, Zaac, then you have my apologies. If I have, then it was unintentional. I dealt with your comments as I understood them. Race will always be a “hot topic” in culturally diverse environments. Men are comfortable with people that are like them, regardless of the color of their skin. But we are not like that. We are the Church, children of God. So what if I am a white man. Give me 10 minutes in the sun and I will be a red man. Race does not matter. People matter. I don’t know if it is a difference in where we are from, or in how we were raised, or our experiences, but I do not understand how people think categorically in terms of race. I’ve known horrible people, and I’ve known wonderful friends. I have never known race to be a factor.

We all start off somewhere in life. None of us start off the same. What is important is not what advantages or disadvantages we have had in a lost world which is condemned and perishing but our relationship to God and each other in Christ. There are two categories of people. Those who are perishing and those who comprise the Body of Christ.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree. There are socioeconomic disadvantages faced by established minority races in our nation. Unfortunately, those responsible are dead.

And what are those?

 

[JonC]

And what are those?

When we speak of these disadvantages and advantages we are speaking in comparison. I think that most of us have experienced some sort of socioeconomic disadvantage (and advantage) when compared to some people. I also believe it obvious that these advantages/disadvantages of the past have in some way impacted our society today. For example, my grandparents were not afforded the opportunity to graduate high school because they had to work the farm. My other grandparents had to work in a cotton mill. The economic situation in which they found themselves impacted the opportunities available to them, and subsequently to my father and my own family. That’s life.

Where race comes in is that those doors closed to my grandparents because of socioeconomic reasons were closed to generations of other people because of their race. It is the case that much too often poverty feeds poverty. A past culture where one race could not gain ground, or had to knock down doors closed to them because of the color of their skin, produces future consequences and a people that are at the start disadvantaged. To answer your question, these disadvantages are products of racism which impacted the minority race from gaining employment, education, etc. I can even remember small towns where minority families were forced to move. So yes, minorities have faced such disadvantages and the consequences are felt today.

My argument is that racism is not the solution. We have to go forward from where we are and those who are intently focused on the blaming the past can never gain a future.

 

[Revmitchell]

Where race comes in is that those doors closed to my grandparents because of socioeconomic reasons were closed to generations of other people because of their race. It is the case that much too often poverty feeds poverty. A past culture where one race could not gain ground, or had to knock down doors closed to them because of the color of their skin, produces future consequences and a people that are at the start disadvantaged. To answer your question, these disadvantages are products of racism which impacted the minority race from gaining employment, education, etc. I can even remember small towns where minority families were forced to move. So yes, minorities have faced such disadvantages and the consequences are felt today.

I'm sorry but everyone has the same opportunity for advancement in this country. We all have those things that impede our success but that is irrelevant. No matter the impediment we have to over come. People from all backgrounds and races have done so. The problem for some races is not what society is doing around them it is what they are doing to themselves. Certain sub cultures tend to be just another impediment to personal advancement. They can either change or suffer the consequences.

 

[Revmitchell]

 

[JonC]

I'm sorry but everyone has the same opportunity for advancement in this country. We all have those things that impede our success but that is irrelevant. No matter the impediment we have to over come. People from all backgrounds and races have done so. The problem for some races is not what society is doing around them it is what they are doing to themselves. Certain sub cultures tend to be just another impediment to personal advancement. They can either change or suffer the consequences.

I disagree that everyone has the same opportunity for advancement, although I believe that all can advance. I do agree that everyone faces barriers and that some use race as an excuse and are so caught up in what they do not have that they never advance.

If I were articulate then this would have been my answer:

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree that everyone has the same opportunity for advancement, although I believe that all can advance. I do agree that everyone faces barriers and that some use race as an excuse and are so caught up in what they do not have that they never advance.

If we all have barriers, if we all have an opportunity to advance then we all have the same opportunity. Just because someone's barriers may be more difficult than another's is irrelevant to whether or not we have the same opportunity.

 

[JonC]

If we all have barriers, if we all have an opportunity to advance then we all have the same opportunity. Just because someone's barriers may be more difficult than another's is irrelevant to whether or not we have the same opportunity.

To advance in general, yes. I suppose it depends on the opportunity. My concern is that some minority groups within the American church seek a racial solution to advance some people instead of a spiritual solution to advance the Body of Christ. The God makes a new race of people - ONE race, not divided.

 

[Revmitchell]

To advance in general, yes. I suppose it depends on the opportunity. My concern is that some minority groups within the American church seek a racial solution to advance some people instead of a spiritual solution to advance the Body of Christ. The God makes a new race of people - ONE race, not divided.

My concern as well.

 

[Zaac]

If we all have barriers, if we all have an opportunity to advance then we all have the same opportunity. Just because someone's barriers may be more difficult than another's is irrelevant to whether or not we have the same opportunity.

Spoken from the perspective of privilege. An opportunity to advance doesn't mean we all have the same opportunity.

White perceptions regarding the extent of racial bias are rooted in ignorance is made clear by a number of important facts. First, as will be shown below, there is the evidence indicating that equal opportunity is the stuff of fiction, not documentary; and secondly, the simple truth is, white perceptions of racism’s salience have always been splendidly naive. Indeed, as far back as 1963, before there was a Civil Rights Act to outlaw even the most blatant racial discrimination, sixty percent of whites said that blacks were treated equally in their communities.

In 1962, only eight years after the Brown decision outlawed segregation in the nation’s schools (but well before schools had moved to integrate or equalize their classrooms), a stunning eighty-four percent of whites were convinced that blacks had equal educational opportunity. (Must be that same 80+ % who say they are Christians)

In other words, white denial of the racism problem is nothing new: it was entrenched even when this nation operated under a formal system of apartheid.

Of course, this ignorance of the lived realities of black people is no surprise. Rather, it is the result of our isolation from African Americans in daily life. More than eighty percent of whites live in virtually all-white neighborhoods, and nearly nine in ten white suburbanites live in communities with less than one percent black populations. What’s more, only twelve percent of whites in law school today — who by historical standards have had more opportunity to mix with people of color than any generation before them — say they had significant interaction with blacks while growing up. One can expect this degree of isolation to lead to a skewed perception of what other people experience. After all, if one doesn’t know many blacks, or witness discrimination, it is all the more likely that one will find the notion of widespread mistreatment hard to digest. Especially when one has been socialized to give more credence to what members of one’s own group say, than what the racial “other” tells us is true.

Good job Tim Wise. In that same vein, it's no wonder why folks who don't spend much time with folks who don't think and look like them would assume everyone has the same opportunity just because everyone has the same opportunity to advance.

Guess that explains why there were hardly any black CEOs (5)in the fortune 500 as of Jan 2015.

 

[Zaac]

To advance in general, yes. I suppose it depends on the opportunity. My concern is that some minority groups within the American church seek a racial solution to advance some people instead of a spiritual solution to advance the Body of Christ. The God makes a new race of people - ONE race, not divided.

I think again that you miss the fact that it's many in the Body of Christ who have done the holding back just as they did during slavery and Jim Crow.

And until everyone in the Body of Christ accepts that there are racial bigots within the church who are just fine advocating all sorts of racial stereotypes about those who don't look or think like them, and who indeed think themselves superior, then you're not working to advance the Body but people.

How do we speak of race not being an issue in the Body of Christ when you've got evangelicals supporting the racism and racial prejudice coming from Fox News and ,i.e. the Trump campaign?

Because I'd really like to know what solution those folks are advancing, and why some seem to take issue with calling their vileness out?

 

[JonC]

I think again that you miss the fact that it's many in the Body of Christ who have done the holding back just as they did during slavery and Jim Crow.

And until everyone in the Body of Christ accepts that there are racial bigots within the church who are just fine advocating all sorts of racial stereotypes about those who don't look or think like them, and who indeed think themselves superior, then you're not working to advance the Body but people.

I don't know if you watched the video I posted (it is rather long...about an hour). This morning I watched a short interview and then dropped my tablet. When I picked it up I guess I mistakenly hit the video. It is excellent (IMHO, of course).

One of the issues was people that are unaware of the issues minorities face in terms of racial barriers (both past and present). Another issue was the fact that so many minorities believe that white people think themselves superior because of their own unidentified racial bigotry. The pastor concludes by emphasizing that the gospel breaks racial barriers because it forms a new race, one race of men.

I agree that the Church cannot ignore racism. If you get a chance, I think that you would like the video.

 

[Revmitchell]

Another issue was the fact that so many minorities believe that white people think themselves superior because of their own unidentified racial bigotry.

Unless they are white they cannot know what we go through.