A bit more about "parousia"

[Covenanter]

We can start off this thread with full agreement ! ! !

2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

That reference is to Jesus' presence with them during his life on earth, with a particular reference to the transfiguration.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

This is quite obviously the incarnation and transfiguration. It is not about the second coming since the verbs

You must have missed my post, as you did not "agree" at the time.

Your reference to parousia in the general letters needs discussion.

 

[Covenanter]

Well, the thread's almost done and I haven't gotten to parousia in the general epistles yet.



Jas 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.



Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.



James would not be saying "unto the presence of the Lord," since we have the Holy Spirit within us. He is talking about the 2nd Coming in both of these verses. As for the "draweth nigh," I know someone's going to complain about that. I have no problem with it. But before someone says, "See, he meant AD 70," that was still many years away, so that won't work.





2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.



This is quite obviously the incarnation and transfiguration. It is not about the second coming since the verbs



2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.



This is a general statement about an event, not about a presence. It can't mean "presence," since Peter knew he had the presence of Christ with him through the indwelling Holy Spirit.



2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?



Though not mentioning Christ, this refers to the end times, in particular when Christ will create the new heavens and the new earth. That is not a presence, but an event.



1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.



Since this speaks of Christ's appearing, then the parousia in this verse is parallel to it and has to mean an event, the 2nd Coming.

 

[Covenanter]

None of those references even hint at the complex futuristic events taught by the Dispensationalists.

The parousia is immediately followed by the NH&NE.

 

[prophecy70]

I guess no one cares to engage this yet

 

[John of Japan]

We can start off this thread with full agreement ! ! !

Yes, we agreed there.

You must have missed my post, as you did not "agree" at the time.

Yep. Missed it. Sorry.

Your reference to parousia in the general letters needs discussion.

Strange, no one interacted with that list or any of the other comments I made on any of the 16 parousia references to the 2nd Coming of Christ at the time. You have your chance. They had their chance. I'm not sure of the point of this thread.

 

[John of Japan]

None of those references even hint at the complex futuristic events taught by the Dispensationalists.

If you were looking for dispensationalism, you missed the point of that entire thread.

The parousia is immediately followed by the NH&NE.

Nope.

 

[John of Japan]

I guess no one cares to engage this yet

Well, since no one engaged a single one of my 17 references to the 2nd Coming of Christ referenced with parousia....

 

[Covenanter]

Strange, no one interacted with that list or any of the other comments I made on any of the 16 parousia references to the 2nd Coming of Christ at the time. You have your chance. They had their chance. I'm not sure of the point of this thread.

That thread was about to be locked - so I opened this one to discuss the parousia in the general letters. Starting with agreement.

 

[John of Japan]

That thread was about to be locked - so I opened this one to discuss the parousia in the general letters. Starting with agreement.

Okay. Go to it.

 

[Covenanter]

My post 91 on page 5 of your thread referred to 2 Peter 3 -

Mat. 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

If the disciples expected a sudden & glorious coming, why ask about a sign? In the context, they were asking about the destruction. Jesus has a lot to explain.

Jesus warns about the tribulation before the destruction. He's telling the Christians the signs they will watch for in order to flee the city.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
There will be a beginning of the final war. When it begins, the Roman legions - like vultures - will gather. The beginning will be unmistakable, like a flash of lightning begins the thunderstorm. The lightning announces the gathering of the legions intent on spoil.

But even that is not the end, there's more to come -
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect will be gathered from the doomed city before the destruction. Jesus would come & supervise the deliverance of the elect before the destruction, & would ensure the fulfilment of his prophecy before this generation passed.

The other comings in the chapter relate to the passing of heaven & earth - the final coming in resurrection & judgment.

So about 35 years later the scoffers challenged his prophecy -
2 Peter 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation

If they were thinking in terms of the final coming, the question would be irrelevant. No. They were obviously thinking, "Jesus hasn't come as he declared he would. This generation is fast dying out." Peter assures them that just as God warned of a coming flood, with 100 years warning, & opened the ark for sinners who heeded that warning, though none but the family were saved when the promised flood came, so Jesus' warning of his coming is sure. There's still time to repent - God is longsuffering, but the destruction will come.

Peter extends the warning to all of us, encouraging godly living in anticipation of the final coming in judgment.

 

[John of Japan]

My post 91 on page 5 of your thread referred to 2 Peter 3 -

Mat. 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

If the disciples expected a sudden & glorious coming, why ask about a sign? In the context, they were asking about the destruction. Jesus has a lot to explain.

I have no idea why this is supposed to be a problem to my position. They obviously did not expect a sudden and glorious coming, so Jesus had to teach them all about it. And no one ever interacted with my comments on the 4 usages of parousia in the Olivet Discourse, so your post is basically moot.

So about 35 years later the scoffers challenged his prophecy -

2 Peter 3:3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation

This is precisely what full preterists do: mock our belief in the premillenial return of Christ.

If they were thinking in terms of the final coming, the question would be irrelevant. No. They were obviously thinking, "Jesus hasn't come as he declared he would. This generation is fast dying out." Peter assures them that just as God warned of a coming flood, with 100 years warning, & opened the ark for sinners who heeded that warning, though none but the family were saved when the promised flood came, so Jesus' warning of his coming is sure. There's still time to repent - God is longsuffering, but the destruction will come.

You are adding your thoughts to Scripture, an extremely dangerous thing to do. The Peter passage says nothing about "this generation." The comparison is to the flood, for which there was no promise about a generation, but only a statement from God to only Noah about his righteousness in his generation (Gen. 7:1).

Peter extends the warning to all of us, encouraging godly living in anticipation of the final coming in judgment.

And this points up the fact that there are far more reasons for Christ's 2nd Coming than just judgment, something that none of you preterists or "preterist leaners" dealt with in the slightest in my thread on that.

 

[prophecy70]

And no one ever interacted with my comments on the 4 usages of parousia in the Olivet Discourse, so your post is basically moot.

I explained the coming was the same in the OT passages since the word in Hebrew means a physical coming as well, but then you told me the OT passages were anthropomorphism. I don't believe that amounts to a row of beans comparing the comings, but if you do, then you explained it to yourself.

Is like manner, a white horse, or beaming down to the mount of Olives?

And does this antichrist have to be born? And how is this possible if the Rapture is imminent?

 

[John of Japan]

I explained the coming was the same in the OT passages since the word in Hebrew means a physical coming as well, but then you told me the OT passages were anthropomorphism. I don't believe that amounts to a row of beans comparing the comings, but if you do, then you explained it to yourself.

Figurative language must use physical elements. Thus, the anthropomorphism in Is. 19:1 uses a cloud (an existing item) and riding (a real activity) and coming (a real action) to form the anthropomorphism of God (a spirit, with no physical component until the incarnation) actually riding (something He does not literally do) on a cloud (something no one does because a cloud is not solid). These literal elements make up the figure of speech, which is not meant to be interpreted literally. Here is a definition for you: "figure of speech Ancient term for any form of expression in which the normal use of language is manipulated, stretched, or altered for rhetorical effect" (Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics, by P. H. Matthews, p 138).

Is like manner, a white horse, or beaming down to the mount of Olives?

Not sure what you are asking with "like manner." That's just a 1611 way to say, "in the same way," so it's not figurative language.

There is no indication in the text that the white horse Jesus will ride is a figure of speech. Since Revelation is apocalyptic literature, there should be a way to tell if the white horse is a metaphor, but there is nothing in the text like that. White horses are real (my Grandpa's Tennessee Walker was "Mac"). And the Mount of Olives is a real place. So I interpret that horse literally.

Again, there are no indications in the Olivet Discourse that the usages of parousia there are figurative, so I interpret them literally.

About "beaming down to the Mount of Olives," I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Never heard of this idea, or interpretation, or whatever it is.

And does this antichrist have to be born? And how is this possible if the Rapture is imminent?

Antichrist may be alive right now. What the Bible says is that he will not be "revealed" until after the apostasia, not that he won't be born (2 Thess. 2:3).

 

[Covenanter]

Figurative language must use physical elements. Thus, the anthropomorphism in Is. 19:1 uses a cloud (an existing item) and riding (a real activity) and coming (a real action) to form the anthropomorphism of God (a spirit, with no physical component until the incarnation) actually riding (something He does not literally do) on a cloud (something no one does because a cloud is not solid). These literal elements make up the figure of speech, which is not meant to be interpreted literally. Here is a definition for you: "figure of speech Ancient term for any form of expression in which the normal use of language is manipulated, stretched, or altered for rhetorical effect" (Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics, by P. H. Matthews, p 138).

Not sure what you are asking with "like manner." That's just a 1611 way to say, "in the same way," so it's not figurative language.

There is no indication in the text that the white horse Jesus will ride is a figure of speech. Since Revelation is apocalyptic literature, there should be a way to tell if the white horse is a metaphor, but there is nothing in the text like that. White horses are real (my Grandpa's Tennessee Walker was "Mac"). And the Mount of Olives is a real place. So I interpret that horse literally.

Again, there are no indications in the Olivet Discourse that the usages of parousia there are figurative, so I interpret them literally.

About "beaming down to the Mount of Olives," I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Never heard of this idea, or interpretation, or whatever it is.
Antichrist may be alive right now. What the Bible says is that he will not be "revealed" until after the apostasia, not that he won't be born (2 Thess. 2:3).

The relevant Scriptures include:

Mat. 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

Thus, the anthropomorphism in Is. 19:1 [Mat. 24:30] uses a cloud (an existing item) and riding (a real activity) and coming (a real action) to form the anthropomorphism of God (a spirit, with no physical component until the incarnation) actually riding (something He does not literally do) on a cloud (something no one does because a cloud is not solid). These literal elements make up the figure of speech, which is not meant to be interpreted literally.

I don't think the coming on the clouds of heaven in the Olivet prophecy is a figure of speech. It's certainly in dramatic language, but is it literal? We can interpret it in the same way as the Isaiah prophecy, & the tribes of the land will see him with understanding in the way they did not see him when he was walking among them. John 12 quoting Isa. 6.

Rev. 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
​

There is no indication in the text that the white horse Jesus will ride is a figure of speech.

The scrolls are opened & appear as a series of videos, the victorious Christ on the white horse & his angelic agents riding out in judgment on the land - see Eze. 14. We see also the martyrs safe under the altar, the terror of the rulers of the land (of Israel) as Jesus' prophecies are realised & the acknowledge the righteous wrath of the Lamb. We see also the deliverance of the 144,000 faithful Jews sealed for their protection, & delivered before the wrath descends. These are scrolls - the plans of God revealed before the destruction.

Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
​

There is no indication in the text that the white horse Jesus will ride is a figure of speech.

Presumable also there is no indication that Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. is a figure of speech.

Zec. 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,.....​

Indicates a very localised coming - I understand they've got their video cameras set up so every eye will see him. I'll miss that event - I don't know how to set my mobile phone.

 

[John of Japan]

The relevant Scriptures include:

Mat. 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

I don't think the coming on the clouds of heaven in the Olivet prophecy is a figure of speech. It's certainly in dramatic language, but is it literal? We can interpret it in the same way as the Isaiah prophecy, & the tribes of the land will see him with understanding in the way they did not see him when he was walking among them. John 12 quoting Isa. 6.

Rev. 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
​

The scrolls are opened & appear as a series of videos, the victorious Christ on the white horse & his angelic agents riding out in judgment on the land - see Eze. 14. We see also the martyrs safe under the altar, the terror of the rulers of the land (of Israel) as Jesus' prophecies are realised & the acknowledge the righteous wrath of the Lamb. We see also the deliverance of the 144,000 faithful Jews sealed for their protection, & delivered before the wrath descends. These are scrolls - the plans of God revealed before the destruction.

Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
​

I'm not quite sure what your point is here, but as far as I get it I agree.

Presumable also there is no indication that Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. is a figure of speech.

Actually, the sword coming out of His mouth is a very clear metaphor for the words of Christ's mouth, due to the fact that the sword is a metaphor elsewhere for the Word of God.

Zec. 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,.....​

Indicates a very localised coming - I understand they've got their video cameras set up so every eye will see him. I'll miss that event - I don't know how to set my mobile phone.

I don't really care about any cameras. Every eye seeing Christ in His glory on the Mount of Olives will be a miracle, not a human accomplishment. You might be referencing my comments on a previous thread about everyone nowadays having a cell phone, but I certainly did not mean that was the way it was going to happen. If you think I did, you did not understand my point in referencing world-wide cell phone reception.

 

[prophecy70]

Antichrist may be alive right now. What the Bible says is that he will not be "revealed" until after the apostasia, not that he won't be born (2 Thess. 2:3).

But how is that possible if the rapture can happen at any moment? Who's in charge of this antichrist?

And no the bible doesn't say anything about a future one world dictator. Your interpretation says that.

 

[prophecy70]

I don't really care about any cameras. Every eye seeing Christ in His glory on the Mount of Olives will be a miracle, not a human accomplishment.

I wouldn't get to see this "miracle" because Ill disappear and leave my clothes 7 years earlier?

Good thing I am not a airplane pilot.

 

[John of Japan]

But how is that possible if the rapture can happen at any moment? Who's in charge of this antichrist?

I fail to see the problem with an imminent rapture and an unknown antichrist. As for who's in charge of him, Satan is. But God is in charge of everything. Do you know what providence is?

And no the bible doesn't say anything about a future one world dictator. Your interpretation says that.

I have said nothing about a future one world dictator. I don't believe in a future one world dictator unless it be the Lord Jesus Christ, King for 1000 years. Please don't put words in my mouth, but pay attention to what I actually write.

 

[John of Japan]

I wouldn't get to see this "miracle" because Ill disappear and leave my clothes 7 years earlier?

Good thing I am not a airplane pilot.

If you go up in the Rapture, you come down with Jesus in the 2nd Coming in Glory (Jude v. 14). And the Bible says nothing about leaving your clothes behind in the Rapture. That's pop eschatology. You really need to forget that stuff and read serious writers like Pentecost, McClain, Payne, Paul Lee Tan and many others I could suggest. That way you would quit putting up fluffy straw men in these discussions and actually have substantive posts.

If you actually want to get serious about prophecy and forget the fluff, I suggest you start with The Interpretation of Prophecy, by Paul Lee Tan. Another great one to seriously get started with would be The Millennium Bible, by William Biederwolf. It's an oldie but still great.

 

[prophecy70]

I fail to see the problem with an imminent rapture and an unknown antichrist. As for who's in charge of him, Satan is. But God is in charge of everything. Do you know what providence is?

So God will cause this antichrist to be born? Because once he's born the "rapture" would have to occur within his lifetime.

I have said nothing about a future one world dictator. I don't believe in a future one world dictator unless it be the Lord Jesus Christ, King for 1000 years. Please don't put words in my mouth, but pay attention to what I actually write.

So the antichrist isn't going to rule the world from a newly furnished temple?