A bit more about "parousia"

[John of Japan]

So God will cause this antichrist to be born? Because once he's born the "rapture" would have to occur within his lifetime.

Sigh. I guess you don't understand providence.

God doesn't have to do anything. He can do the Rapture anytime He wants to. He can permit any antichrist He wants to as being the final one. (There have been and are many, according to 1 John 2:18.) His providence in regards to the Rapture is not limited by Satan's puny efforts to provide a fake Christ.

So the antichrist isn't going to rule the world from a newly furnished temple?

Absolutely not.

 

[prophecy70]

If you go up in the Rapture, you come down with Jesus in the 2nd Coming in Glory (Jude v. 14). And the Bible says nothing about leaving your clothes behind in the Rapture. That's pop eschatology. You really need to forget that stuff and read serious writers like Pentecost, McClain, Payne, Paul Lee Tan and many others I could suggest. That way you would quit putting up fluffy straw men in these discussions and actually have substantive posts.

If you actually want to get serious about prophecy and forget the fluff, I suggest you start with The Interpretation of Prophecy, by Paul Lee Tan. Another great one to seriously get started with would be The Millennium Bible, by William Biederwolf. It's an oldie but still great.

But there is no rapture in the bible.
I read your grandfathers writing on it, he inserts the rapture in the olivet discourse, I don't see where he gets that from.


Do you believe Thomas Ice? I watch enough debates with him and preterists.

 

[prophecy70]

Sigh. I guess you don't understand providence.

God doesn't have to do anything. He can do the Rapture anytime He wants to. He can permit any antichrist He wants to as being the final one. (There have been and are many, according to 1 John 2:18.) His providence in regards to the Rapture is not limited by Satan's puny efforts to provide a fake Christ.

Absolutely not.

Alright, I understand now.

Then what is this final antichrist going to do?

 

[John of Japan]

But there is no rapture in the bible.

I believe there is one. When you categorically state that there is no rapture, that's pretty "in your face" to those of us who believe there is one, you know.

I read your grandfathers writing on it, he inserts the rapture in the olivet discourse, I don't see where he gets that from.

Since you once told me in a PM not to recommend anything about prophecy by John R. Rice, I can't help you there.

Do you believe Thomas Ice? I watch enough debates with him and preterists.

Do I believe him about what? He has a lot of material, and I've not read much of his stuff on prophecy. I will say that I recommend his website to my "Dispensational Theology" students, since he is a scholar in that area.

 

[John of Japan]

Alright, I understand now.

Then what is this final antichrist going to do?

You want the whole Biblical doctrine of the Antichrist here on a BB thread? Can't do that. Try more focused queries.

 

[TCassidy]

Good thing I am not a airplane pilot.

I glad you are not a pilot too.

Back in the 1970s, the CEO of Northwest Orient Airlines, Don Nyrop, had a rule that two born again Christians could not be in the same cockpit at the same time in case of the rapture. He didn't want any of his planes to be without both pilot and copilot.

 

[John of Japan]

I glad you are not a pilot too.

Back in the 1970s, the CEO of Northwest Orient Airlines, Don Nyrop, had a rule that two born again Christians could not be in the same cockpit at the same time in case of the rapture. He didn't want any of his planes to be without both pilot and copilot.

I love it!

 

[TCassidy]

But there is no rapture in the bible.

WEB
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

Latin Vulgate
Ad Thessalonicenses I: 16. quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi
17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

English: Caught up. Latin: rapiemur. Transliteration: Rapture.

 

[prophecy70]

I believe there is one. When you categorically state that there is no rapture, that's pretty "in your face" to those of us who believe there is one, you know.

Well I meant its not spelled out.

 

[prophecy70]

I glad you are not a pilot too.

Back in the 1970s, the CEO of Northwest Orient Airlines, Don Nyrop, had a rule that two born again Christians could not be in the same cockpit at the same time in case of the rapture. He didn't want any of his planes to be without both pilot and copilot.

ROFL!
That is really funny. Wow

 

[prophecy70]

WEB
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

So the Lord is coming in the air and then turning right back around?
Isn't a resurrection going on here as well?

 

[TCassidy]

So the Lord is coming in the air and then turning right back around?

That depends on whether you are Pre-Trip, Mid-Trib, or Post-Trib.

Isn't a resurrection going on here as well?

Most dispensationalists believe there are two resurrections. The resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust.

 

[TCassidy]

Well I meant its not spelled out.

See my post #28 where it is spelled out.

 

[prophecy70]

See my post #28 where it is spelled out.

1st thes 4:13
According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

So if John is saying the parousia is the second coming and a physical return of Christ, then how can you include a secret rapture in here, if 4:16 happens at the "Parousia"?

Is it not saying these are the same event?

 

[John of Japan]

Well I meant its not spelled out.

What would it take, if 1 Thess. 4 isn't good enough for you? Something like, "There's going to be a rapture and all Christians will fly like Superman! Up to be with Jesus!"

 

[TCassidy]

how can you include a secret rapture

What secret rapture?

 

[prophecy70]

What secret rapture?

so you do not believe in a secret rapture before the "great tribulation"?

What is your idea of the rapture?

 

[prophecy70]

What would it take, if 1 Thess. 4 isn't good enough for you? Something like, "There's going to be a rapture and all Christians will fly like Superman! Up to be with Jesus!"

That would be helpful

I dont think superman existed in bible times, but I could be wrong. Do you have any supporting documents on this?

 

[prophecy70]

Remember that there are two phases of the coming of Christ. First, He will come into the air and call out His saints to meet Him. This is the first part of His coming, the part always referred to by Jesus when He said, "Watch, therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" and made similar statements. Then on the earth there will intervene the seventieth or last "week" of Daniel's prophecy (Dan. 9:24-27). On the earth then there will be "the beginning of sorrows," and in the last half of the "week," three and one half years of great tribulation while the Antichrist rules the world. Then Christ will return from Heaven, coming literally in the clouds with the saints and angels to fight the battle of Armageddon, destroy the kingdoms of the Antichrist, and reign upon earth. During the great tribulation this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to all the world and then will come the end of the tribulation in the battle of Armageddon when Christ comes to set up His kingdom. That is what Matthew 24:14 means. The gospel or good news of the coming reign of Christ will be preached by a newly converted remnant in all the world after Christ comes and takes away His saints.

John R Rice

So it is a two phase Parousia with the first phase not being a physical coming? But if thats the case, how can Parousia always mean physical coming? Or Is it two physical comings?

I thought you said John, the Antichrist doesn't rule the world?

 

[John of Japan]

John R Rice

So it is a two phase Parousia with the first phase not being a physical coming? But if thats the case, how can Parousia always mean physical coming? Or Is it two physical comings?

I thought you said John, the Antichrist doesn't rule the world?

Yep, that's what I said; he will try, though. I'm out of here till Friday.

Happy Thanksgiving.