Personally I like to know if an individual believes in the 1) future, 2) visible, 3) bodily return of Jesus Christ just to clear the air (so to speak)
HankD
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A bit more about "parousia"
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HankD
To me, that is a test of orthodoxy. Say "no" to any of the three and, in my opinion, that person is heterodox.Personally I like to know if an individual believes in the 1) future, 2) visible, 3) bodily return of Jesus Christ just to clear the air (so to speak)
HankD
I was introduced to preterism early in my Christian life, & I soon began to wonder why, if preterism were true, the earth was the same as it was before 70 AD except for the modern inventions. So, I started doing some research at my public library, before the Internet age.
Meanwhile, I was told by some prets that the words of the Bible were largely figurative/symbolic/metaphorical, and whatever events Jesus had prophesied had already come to pass, all that God intended.And the preterists placed heavy reliance upon "this generation.....".
However, as I studied several Bible versions, from the Geneva thru the NASV, I saw many things jesus had prophesied had come to pass LITERALLY, TO THE LETTER. For example, I saw that the temple in jerusalem had been destroyed to the extent that not one of its stones remained upon another as originally placed, just as Jesus had said. I've kept up with current events ever since early childhood, so I knew there was war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians, etc. etc. JUST AS JESUS HAD SAID.
One of the best gifts I have ever received is the Encyclopaedia Britannica. I've read its volum3es voraciously for years, as well as its annual yearboox. And I didn't find one quark of evidence in it, and in several other world history volumes, that says the eschatological events have already occurred. But I learned that Luis Del Alcazar(1554-1613), a Spanish jeezit, formulated what would later be called preterism in his work, Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (1614), published after his death, whose aim was to protect his popes from being labeled the "beast/antichrist" by Protestants.(Another false doctrine in itself) This work was taken up, praised, & expanded upon by Hugo Grotius & John Donne, & thus the foundation for preterism was established.
Now to me, the "official" preterism doctrine, full or partial, begins with the coming of the "beast from the sea/antichrist/man of sin/that Wicked" to power. (I believe that, despite all the different titles, this will be ONE MAN, same as Jesus is ONE PERSONAGE despite all His different titles.) Scripture makes it plain this one man will rule the world & that no man can defeat him. it appears from Scripture that he will have full power for about 3.5 years, during which the AOD, great trib, & mark of the beast will occur. And it's very, VERY obvious that NO such man has ever come to power yet.
And, seeing the LITERAL AND EXACT fulfillemnt of Jesus' prophecies that HAVE come to pass, I have NO doubt the others will come to pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY!
Keeping with the theme of this thread, Jesus' parousia(return), it's again very, VERY obvious it has NOT yet occurred. First, Jesus had Paul write, in a letter to the Thessalonians that became Scripture, that event would not occur til the man of sin came to power & committed the AOD by entering the temple in Jerusalem & proclaiming himself to be God. This didn't occur in the old temple, so a new one must be built.
And I came to the conclusion that "this generation" must refer to the one that'll actually see those events occur.
Next, Jesus said His parousia will be IN GREAT POWER AND GLORY, and in Rev. 1:7, He said it'd be SEEN BY ALL.
Next, His return will be PERMANENT, & He will take over all rule on earth. And in Matthew 24:23-28 He warns against believing anyone who says He's already come in secret, just as some people did soon after He departed,(The ones Paul wrote about in 2 Thess.2) and some people do today!
There's simple NO valid reason a BAPTIST should believe the parousia has already occurred! That's preterist nonsense! The parousia will be the MOST-SPECTACULAR event ever seen by mortal man! There'll be no mistaking it for anything else! So, Sportzz fanzz, please put aside the writings of Alcazar, Grotius, Donne, Sproul, Gentry, Preston, etc. & stick to the Bible and reliable, unbiased works of history, rejecting any & all MAN-MADE doctrines of faith & worship!
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Now you've got it! There are a number of major places where I disagree with my grandfather. For example, I'm a dispansationalist, but he was not.
Thank you. Had a great day with some friends. I trust your day was blessed.
Yeah, I was raptured like Elijah, but the Lord sent me back with instructions to keep after the preterists on the BB.
Simple, brutal TRUTH that full preterists MUST face -
JESUS' PAROUSIA HAS NOT YET OCCURRED!
No pret can prove any differently!
Saying He came in the clouds in 70 AD & that was the parousia is man-made poppycock. There's only ONE other advent of jesus mentioned in Scripture, including mention by Jesus Himself, and that event has simply not yet happened!
Jesus gave some detail in both the Olivet Discourse & in the Revelation of how-spectacular & world-changing His parousia will be, & it's VERY-OBVIOUS that if you believe Jesus, that event has NOT yet happened, simple as THAT! All the yak about other events being the parousia are nothing more than desperate attempts by preterists trying to salvage some veracity for their false, man-made doctrine.
JESUS' PAROUSIA HAS NOT YET OCCURRED!
No pret can prove any differently!
Saying He came in the clouds in 70 AD & that was the parousia is man-made poppycock. There's only ONE other advent of jesus mentioned in Scripture, including mention by Jesus Himself, and that event has simply not yet happened!
Jesus gave some detail in both the Olivet Discourse & in the Revelation of how-spectacular & world-changing His parousia will be, & it's VERY-OBVIOUS that if you believe Jesus, that event has NOT yet happened, simple as THAT! All the yak about other events being the parousia are nothing more than desperate attempts by preterists trying to salvage some veracity for their false, man-made doctrine.
IF that happened AD 70, when was there the resurrection event, and when did there start new Heavens and earth?
I've heard of "panmillennialism" - In spite of all the arguments, it will all pan out - God knows what he is doing. But dispansationalist is a term I'm unfamiliar with. Please explain, with Scripture.
Yeah, I was raptured like Elijah, but the Lord sent me back with instructions to keep after the preterists on the BB.
Keep reading our posts & eventually you will catch up, understand & believe that Jesus did fulfill his Olivet prophesies concerning the destruction. And abandon the dispensationalist teaching with the incredible idea of a temporary future earthly kingdom.
Jesus' return in glory will bring about the final perfection of his creation. As Peter wrote:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
And clearly Peter's indefinite millennium is the present Gospel age:
3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
I think we all agreed that J & the temple were destroyed as Jesus prophesied, but the ESCHATOLOGICAL events have NOT yet occurred.
As for the future earthly kingdom, it's plainly prophesied in the Revelation.
The coming of jesus as king is prophesied thruout Scripture, and at His first coming He was an itinerant carpenter & street preacher, not a king. And when some believing Jews sought to make Him their King, He hid Himself from them.
But when He returns, it'll be in great power & glory as He said. He will rule the nations with a rod of iron, meaning there'll be no opposition to His rule, although it'll be perfectly-just & fair.
And there ARE three dispensations - the Old Covenant, the New Covenant, & the world to come after the millenium is over.
prophecy70
Active Member
If it's clearly prophesied.. is 2nd Peter 3:10 before or after the millennium?
Yeah, I was raptured like Elijah, but the Lord sent me back with instructions to keep after the preterists on the BB.
Looking at your avatar, I can't see if you will need savage bears to deal with the local hooligans.
I left out the "h". It should have been "dishpan-sationalist."
It is an incredible idea--because our incredible God teaches it clearly in Scripture: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6).
Strange that you find it so hard to believe a clear Scripture prophecy. As for me, I'll just continue believing the Bible and interpreting it literally, and thus will never, ever come to any non-literal scheme of prophecy: never amil, never postmil, and absolutely never preterist.
All of this happens in the dispensational scheme just as thoroughly as in any other scheme.
"Clearly" my foot! Peter is emphasizing how God exists outside of our space-time continuum, and in this verse does not talk about Christ reigning.
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Even covenant theologians believe in dispensations.
Clearly after, as the new heavens & earth won't be here til the millenium is over.
As you know, I, & others, have repeatedly asked the preterists here to PROVE their assertions, and all they've provided are conjectures, incorrect opinions, imaginations, red herrings, bunny trails, & goofy excuses, E, G. -I can't bear preterism.
"The language in the Scriptures is figurative/symbolic/metaphorical."
"It happened in the spirit world."
"You simply missed their happenings."
Then, their excuses become outright outlandish:
"Josephus and a couple of others saw chariots in the sky"
(Well, my kids, at age five, saw submarines in the sky.)
"The image of Caesar on Roman coins was the mark of the beast."
(In that case, several past US Presidents were "beast-ettes", as their images are on OUR coins.)
"The Roman army committed the AOD.."
(How 80,000 men crowded into the temple & set up images in it is beyond me!)
"Jesus came in the clouds in 70 AD & took up all the believers to heaven."
(If that's so, loox as if He missed quite a few, as there were plenty of Christians around in 71 AD.)
So far, these, and similar excuses & guessworks have been all that the preterists here and elsewhere have provided, because that's all they have to provide til they can make up some new ones!
The TRUTH is, preterism is just another FALSE, MAN-MADE DOCTRINE of faith & worship that Satan has used to deceive some of the very "elect". It's part of the cesspool that includes the KJVO myth, 'regenerational baptism", oneness/modalism, "all believers shall speak in tongues", & other hooey invented by men. ALL of them should be rejected by Baptists.
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