A bit more about "parousia"

[John of Japan]

As you know, I, & others, have repeatedly asked the preterists here to PROVE their assertions, and all they've provided are conjectures, incorrect opinions, imaginations, red herrings, bunny trails, & goofy excuses, E, G. -

"The language in the Scriptures is figurative/symbolic/metaphorical."

"It happened in the spirit world."

"You simply missed their happenings."

Then, their excuses become outright outlandish:

"Josephus and a couple of others saw chariots in the sky"
(Well, my kids, at age five, saw submarines in the sky.)

"The image of Caesar on Roman coins was the mark of the beast."
(In that case, several past US Presidents were "beast-ettes", as their images are on OUR coins.)

"The Roman army committed the AOD.."
(How 80,000 men crowded into the temple & set up images in it is beyond me!)

"Jesus came in the clouds in 70 AD & took up all the believers to heaven."
(If that's so, loox as if He missed quite a few, as there were plenty of Christians around in 71 AD.)

So far, these, and similar excuses & guessworks have been all that the preterists here and elsewhere have provided, because that's all they have to provide til they can make up some new ones!

The TRUTH is, preterism is just another FALSE, MAN-MADE DOCTRINE of faith & worship that Satan has used to deceive some of the very "elect". It's part of the cesspool that includes the KJVO myth, 'regenerational baptism", oneness/modalism, "all believers shall speak in tongues", & other hooey invented by men. ALL of them should be rejected by Baptists.

I'm with you. The preterist position can only be arrived at by following Origen and Augustine and "spiritualizing" or allegorizing Scripture, and ignoring both the literal meaning of the text, and the recorded history of AD 70.

 

[Covenanter]

Personally I like to know if an individual believes in the 1) future, 2) visible, 3) bodily return of Jesus Christ just to clear the air (so to speak)

HankD

To me, that is a test of orthodoxy. Say "no" to any of the three and, in my opinion, that person is heterodox.

Future, visible & personal is my belief. As the UCCF basis puts it:

The future personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge all men, executing God’s just condemnation of the impenitent and receiving the redeemed to eternal glory.

Or the FIEC:

The Future
The Lord Jesus Christ will return in glory. He will raise the dead and judge the world in righteousness. The wicked will be sent to eternal punishment and the righteous will be welcomed into a life of eternal joy in fellowship with God. God will make all things new and will be glorified forever.

These Christian organisations have a statement that seeks to include rather than subdivide Christians holding the fundamental beliefs, but different non-fundamental beliefs.

 

[agedman]

The problem with both the UCCF statement and the FIEC statement is that the events are jumbled together as if they co-exist at the same time.

Scripture has no such presentation of the events.

I soundly reject such statements as a desire to be ecumenical and sacrificing the truth of the Scriptures in desire to hold each other's hand and sing "We are One in the Spirit."

 

[robycop3]

I'm with you. The preterist position can only be arrived at by following Origen and Augustine and "spiritualizing" or allegorizing Scripture, and ignoring both the literal meaning of the text, and the recorded history of AD 70.

I believe there's PLENTY of empirical and written evidence affirming the position that Jesus' prophecies are LITERAL. For instance, the destruction of J 7 the temple occurred according to how they were written, to the letter. Same for war, rumor of war, Jerusalem's being trod underfoot by gentiles, persecution of Christians with decapitations, etc.

I think some prets believe all supernatural events are over, as it seems those are the events they insist have already happened.

For a long time, I've told preterists near & far that they could shut me up & make me apologize & admit I was wrong by supplying ***PROOF*** that the events they SAY have already occurred, HAVE actually already occurred. If they HAVE already occurred, the EVIDENCE should be very plain, as it is about the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, & the other events I mentioned above.

But so far, the preterists are batting ZERO in the "evidence" dept. How people of at least average intelligence can believe such folderol is beyond me, unless they've been fed that false doctrine for so long that it's become dogma to them.

 

[prophecy70]

For a long time, I've told preterists near & far that they could shut me up & make me apologize & admit I was wrong

Where would I get my amusement from then?

 

[prophecy70]

I believe there's PLENTY of empirical and written evidence affirming the position that Jesus' prophecies are LITERAL. For instance, the destruction of J 7 the temple occurred according to how they were written, to the letter. Same for war, rumor of war, Jerusalem's being trod underfoot by gentiles, persecution of Christians with decapitations, etc.

I think some prets believe all supernatural events are over, as it seems those are the events they insist have already happened.

For a long time, I've told preterists near & far that they could shut me up & make me apologize & admit I was wrong by supplying ***PROOF*** that the events they SAY have already occurred, HAVE actually already occurred. If they HAVE already occurred, the EVIDENCE should be very plain, as it is about the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, & the other events I mentioned above.

But so far, the preterists are batting ZERO in the "evidence" dept. How people of at least average intelligence can believe such folderol is beyond me, unless they've been fed that false doctrine for so long that it's become dogma to them.

Why don't you explain to John how Jesus is a spirit now in the way you argued on another forum?

 

[John of Japan]

I believe there's PLENTY of empirical and written evidence affirming the position that Jesus' prophecies are LITERAL. For instance, the destruction of J 7 the temple occurred according to how they were written, to the letter. Same for war, rumor of war, Jerusalem's being trod underfoot by gentiles, persecution of Christians with decapitations, etc.

I think some prets believe all supernatural events are over, as it seems those are the events they insist have already happened.

For a long time, I've told preterists near & far that they could shut me up & make me apologize & admit I was wrong by supplying ***PROOF*** that the events they SAY have already occurred, HAVE actually already occurred. If they HAVE already occurred, the EVIDENCE should be very plain, as it is about the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, & the other events I mentioned above.

But so far, the preterists are batting ZERO in the "evidence" dept. How people of at least average intelligence can believe such folderol is beyond me, unless they've been fed that false doctrine for so long that it's become dogma to them.

I don't stray far from the BB, but none of the preterists here have been able to answer that, either. Asterisktom once claimed that he had given quotes from early Christians about it, but neither Dr. Cassidy nor I remembered anything like that, and he has never posted such quotes since. Of course as you have said, they don't exist!

To me, preterism is such a hopeless and gloomy doctrine. The blessed hope of the Christian is the 2nd Coming of Christ, and they reject that hope. Some think dispensationalism is a pessimistic doctrine. Not the way I teach it! The greatest revivals in history will occur during the tribulation, and the 2nd Coming will be glorious!

 

[John of Japan]

Since this is apparently meant to be a broad thread about prophecy, I want to submit something that disproves the preterist belief, expressed elsewhere, that Christ had a body while He was on earth, but somehow mysteriously lost that body (they don't say how) before AD 70, so that He could come back "spiritually" in 70 without the embaressment of having to leave His physical body behind in Heaven.

Look at 1 John 4:2b, which says, "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." In that verse, "is come" is the Greek eleluthota, which is a perfect participle. Now as every first semester Greek student should know (I drill my students on it), the verbal aspect of the perfect tense is that something happened the results of which continue. The most famous example of this is Christ on the cross saying, Tetelestai, "It is finished!"

What 1 John 4:2 tells us with that perfect tense is that the results of the incarnation continue. According to Glenn Barker (The Expositor's Bible Commentary on 1 John, Vol. 12), the book was probably written in 85-90. This means that to Paul, Christ's physical incarnation continued at a minimum to that time--after AD 70! Christ had a physical body in AD 70, so He could not have come "spiritually" at that time. Once again, the Biblical data proves full preterism wrong.

 

[robycop3]

Where would I get my amusement from then?

By looking back at how silly you were to believe the preterist doctrine.

 

[robycop3]

Why don't you explain to John how Jesus is a spirit now in the way you argued on another forum?

Are you forgetting? GOD CAN DO ANYTHING! There are things He WON'T do, but there's NOTHING He cannot do.

As I said on another forum, it's easy for Jesus to be Spiritually present among a group of believers in the USA who are gathered to worship Him, while he can also be thus present in a church in China AT THE SAME TIME.


Jesus may appear in a body if he so chooses. He may appear as a doorstop if he so chooses. But when He returns, He shall be visible to all, as he said. Now, I don't know what He will look like then, but everyone shall know who He is.

And now, Sir, since your latest red herring has been answered, care to try to present ant PROOF Jesus' parousia has already occurred???????????????

 

[asterisktom]

To me, preterism is such a hopeless and gloomy doctrine. The blessed hope of the Christian is the 2nd Coming of Christ, and they reject that hope.

The Blessed Hope is eternal life in Christ. Something we now have, which all Christians have this side of the Parousia.

Wouldn't you agree that in order to understand a term it is best to see, first of all, if possible, how the same writer used it? Well, in this very same letter Paul had mentioned "hope" in Titus 1:2 and 3:7

2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began

7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

When the term "hope" is found on both sides of your quote, John, it behooves us to think that Paul is using the term in the same way. He is still speaking of eternal life.

We have eternal life in Christ. I don't "reject"that. I rejoice in it! What a wonderful truth! Nothing gloomy about it at all.

 

[Covenanter]

Since this is apparently meant to be a broad thread about prophecy, I want to submit something that disproves the preterist belief, expressed elsewhere, that Christ had a body while He was on earth, but somehow mysteriously lost that body (they don't say how) before AD 70, so that He could come back "spiritually" in 70 without the embaressment of having to leave His physical body behind in Heaven.

Look at 1 John 4:2b, which says, "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." In that verse, "is come" is the Greek eleluthota, which is a perfect participle. Now as every first semester Greek student should know (I drill my students on it), the verbal aspect of the perfect tense is that something happened the results of which continue. The most famous example of this is Christ on the cross saying, Tetelestai, "It is finished!"

What 1 John 4:2 tells us with that perfect tense is that the results of the incarnation continue. According to Glenn Barker (The Expositor's Bible Commentary on 1 John, Vol. 12), the book was probably written in 85-90. This means that to Paul, Christ's physical incarnation continued at a minimum to that time--after AD 70! Christ had a physical body in AD 70, so He could not have come "spiritually" at that time. Once again, the Biblical data proves full preterism wrong.

So Paul wrote John's letters some 20 years after his death in the early 60s ....

Where does Scripture say "Christ had a physical body in AD 70." ?

According to Paul the resurrection body is a spiritual body:

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
.......
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.​

I'm not convinced by your Greek - ἐληλυθότα also occurs in Acts 18:2

2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome.​

I note also a difference between the TR & the mGNT in 1 John 4:3 where ἐληλυθότα only occurs in the TR.

e.g. NIV 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. NIV

and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. NKJV​

Staying with the NKJV -

1Jo 4:2 - By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
1Jo 4:3 - and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.​

What is the test John is teaching? That Jesus was born as a human baby?In the flesh? The Pharisees would agree - they inferred he was a bastard. John 8:41

I don't like quoting from the Internet - I like to give my own understanding, not other peoples' but I checked with a disp commentator, Chuck Smith:

This is the true litmus test of the spirits, the witness of Jesus.
1. The confession is actually that Jesus is the Messiah, He is God come in the flesh.
2. This is the witness of the Spirit. The witness of the Word of God.
3. Speaking of the Israelites Paul said,
ROM 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh The Messiah came, who is God over all blessed for ever. Amen.

You may have made the case to your own satisfaction, but it is not convincing that John is teaching that the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ has a physical, fleshly body in heaven. Certainly he IS God incarnate, perfect God & perfect man in one person, but even his resurrection appearances showed his resurrection body had properties that no physical body possesses. As Paul asserts -

44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
.......
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,​

 

[John of Japan]

So Paul wrote John's letters some 20 years after his death in the early 60s ....

Where does Scripture say "Christ had a physical body in AD 70." ?

According to Paul the resurrection body is a spiritual body:

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
.......
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.​

Having a "spiritual body" (of and pertaining to the spirit) does not rule out having a physical body. You and I both have a spirit, but we have a physical body. Jesus specifically claimed not to be a spirit (Luke 24:39), so He obviously didn't mean that he was giving up His physical body.

Your question should not be, "Did Christ have a physical body in AD 70?" but "If Christ did not have a spiritual body in AD 70, where and when did He lose His physical body that He had after the resurrection?"

I'm not convinced by your Greek - ἐληλυθότα also occurs in Acts 18:2

2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome.​

Do you have any idea what I mean by verbal aspect? By the Greek perfect tense? Because if you don't, whatever I say is not going to convince you.

The word in Acts 18:2 is the same, as you point out, and so it is also in the perfect tense with the same verbal aspect: having come with the results still there. In other words, Aquila and Priscilla were still in Rome. Once again, this bolsters my point.

I note also a difference between the TR & the mGNT in 1 John 4:3 where ἐληλυθότα only occurs in the TR.

e.g. NIV 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. NIV

and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. NKJV​

Wrong. The TR, Majority Text (Hodges and Farstad), and the Byzantine Textform (Pierpont and Robinson) are all the same.

Staying with the NKJV -

1Jo 4:2 - By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
1Jo 4:3 - and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.​

What is the test John is teaching? That Jesus was born as a human baby?In the flesh? The Pharisees would agree - they inferred he was a bastard. John 8:41

I don't like quoting from the Internet - I like to give my own understanding, not other peoples' but I checked with a disp commentator, Chuck Smith:

Oh, great, now you're quoting a Charismatic pastor as if he were a dispensational scholar and as if your link was to a commentary. (It's to a sermon outline.)

You may have made the case to your own satisfaction, but it is not convincing that John is teaching that the risen, ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ has a physical, fleshly body in heaven. Certainly he IS God incarnate, perfect God & perfect man in one person, but even his resurrection appearances showed his resurrection body had properties that no physical body possesses. As Paul asserts -

44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
.......
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,​

Okay, then when and how did Jesus lose His post resurrection physical body?

 

[John of Japan]

The Blessed Hope is eternal life in Christ. Something we now have, which all Christians have this side of the Parousia.

Wouldn't you agree that in order to understand a term it is best to see, first of all, if possible, how the same writer used it? Well, in this very same letter Paul had mentioned "hope" in Titus 1:2 and 3:7

2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began

7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

When the term "hope" is found on both sides of your quote, John, it behooves us to think that Paul is using the term in the same way. He is still speaking of eternal life.

We have eternal life in Christ. I don't "reject"that. I rejoice in it! What a wonderful truth! Nothing gloomy about it at all.

Nope, sorry. Full Preterism is still hopeless to me. This wicked old world stretches on and on into the foreseeable future with no 2nd Coming in which Christ sets things right. Gloomy, gloomy, gloomy.

All you've got is a spiritual coming in judgment in AD 70. I showed on a previous thread many of the wonderful meanings of the 2nd Coming, and you dealt with none but one, and blew that one big time. (I mean really, "sheep doors" in John 14:1-3?) Preterism can't handle the many meanings of Christ's 2nd Coming.

 

[Covenanter]

I'm not convinced by your Greek - ἐληλυθότα also occurs in Acts 18:2
2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome.

Do you have any idea what I mean by verbal aspect? By the Greek perfect tense? Because if you don't, whatever I say is not going to convince you.

The word in Acts 18:2 is the same, as you point out, and so it is also in the perfect tense with the same verbal aspect: having come with the results still there. In other words, Aquila and Priscilla were still in Rome. Once again, this bolsters my point.

So Aquila had come from Italy but was still in Rome. Not forgetting that Paul, 20 years after his death, wrote John's letters.

Do you wonder that I am not convinced by what you write?

 

[asterisktom]

Nope, sorry. Full Preterism is still hopeless to me. This wicked old world stretches on and on into the foreseeable future with no 2nd Coming in which Christ sets things right. Gloomy, gloomy, gloomy.

All you've got is a spiritual coming in judgment in AD 70. I showed on a previous thread many of the wonderful meanings of the 2nd Coming, and you dealt with none but one, and blew that one big time. (I mean really, "sheep doors" in John 14:1-3?) Preterism can't handle the many meanings of Christ's 2nd Coming.

Yes, I regret bringing up the sheep thing. I think I picked that up from Barclay way back in my AF days. I made a mistake - as you did with genea. Moving on...

Speaking of "can't handle", I see you totally passed by observations of "hope" in Titus. We have three occurrences of the word, yet, like almost all futurists, you divorce the meaning of the second one from the first and third.

All I "have is a spiritual coming in judgment in AD 70" - and - a continuing presence of Christ. Parousia. Certainly not gloomy to me. Not having Christ in my life was gloomy, as was the years when I was backslidden.

 

[prophecy70]

Nope, sorry. Full Preterism is still hopeless to me. This wicked old world stretches on and on into the foreseeable future with no 2nd Coming in which Christ sets things right. Gloomy, gloomy, gloomy.

All you've got is a spiritual coming in judgment in AD 70. I showed on a previous thread many of the wonderful meanings of the 2nd Coming, and you dealt with none but one, and blew that one big time. (I mean really, "sheep doors" in John 14:1-3?) Preterism can't handle the many meanings of Christ's 2nd Coming.

We believe the Kingdom is Now, while you sit around waiting for Jesus to sit on a throne in Jerusalem.

How can the Day of The Lord spoken of in 2nd peter come like a thief in the night after the 1000 years? Any one who can read could count down the years.

 

[John of Japan]

We believe the Kingdom is Now, while you sit around waiting for Jesus to sit on a throne in Jerusalem.

That's a good one. Because I believe in the 2nd Coming, I spent 33 years in Japan, am the lead translator of a new Japanese NT, currently teach Greek 101 and Church History, am working on having an MA with a concentration in Bible translation in our seminary, lead a Japanese pastor in getting his one year diploma from my Japanese distance education program, am writing a book on a revivalist, am working on a further degree, work security in my church, etc., etc. And no, this is not boasting, but simply testifying of my life for Jesus, as Paul often did.

So, what does your amil belief inspire you to do for Jesus Christ?

How can the Day of The Lord spoken of in 2nd peter come like a thief in the night after the 1000 years? Any one who can read could count down the years.

That's a no brainer. They are going to be be following the Antichrist, not looking for Christ.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, I regret bringing up the sheep thing. I think I picked that up from Barclay way back in my AF days. I made a mistake - as you did with genea. Moving on...

Okay, you finally admit it. Moving on.

Speaking of "can't handle", I see you totally passed by observations of "hope" in Titus. We have three occurrences of the word, yet, like almost all futurists, you divorce the meaning of the second one from the first and third.

[
Didn't pass them by. I too have the hope of eternal life. But what part of this is hard to understand?

Titus 2:13--"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

All I "have is a spiritual coming in judgment in AD 70" - and - a continuing presence of Christ. Parousia. Certainly not gloomy to me. Not having Christ in my life was gloomy, as was the years when I was backslidden.

Your position misses so many rich meanings of the not-yet 2nd Coming of Christ. Sorry, still very gloomy to me.

So how long will Christ not come in your view? 1000 years? 1,000,000 years? A billion? Eschatology is the study of the end. Full preterism has no end.

 

[HankD]

Why don't you explain to John how Jesus is a spirit now in the way you argued on another forum?

Jesus is the God/man.
Jesus is a Spirit - (O LOGOS), Jesus has a body (to soma).

HankD