A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

[BobRyan]

I am starting this thread because J Jump's position goes far beyond the issue of "I never knew you" in Matt 7 - to and issue that is much more basic and common to all Christians. (As I have pointed out a few dozen times but J Jump seems reluctant to admit it)

From Post 58 on the Matt 7 "I never knew you thread"

Amy said to J Jump Quote:
and if you believe that you don't know if you will be in the Kingdom or lake of fire for 1000 years (I've seen you post this as well), then you should lose sleep because that is a terrifying doctrine that you teach.

J Jump responds
Well you are not entirely accurate in your assessment Amy. I say I don't know for sure, because I can't say with 100% certainty that I will continue to believe and will continue to have a faith that works for the rest of my life.

As of right now I am believing and have a faith that is working so should I die right now or should the Lord return I will have a place in His coming kingdom. However that place is not guaranteed and if I live another 20 years or the Lord doesn't return that doesn't mean that at some point I won't stop believing or that I won't stop having a faith that works.

Hopefully that clears that up. And should I get to that point then yes there should be sleepless nights. However at this point that is not the case Thank God! With ALL seriousness!!!

1. For the 5 point Calvinist the way they "solve the problem of what happens if you stop believing" is to "retro-delete assurance" saying "well then you never were saved in the first place".

2. For the 4 point Calvinist the problem is sovled by completely denying the Bible teaching on PERSEVERANCE such that it does not matter if you continue in the faith or not - you are saved anyway.

BOTH options salvage OSAS - trying to rescue it from the definining light of the Bible doctrine on "perseverance" -- because in each of these solutions there "is a way" to be once saved.

3. J Jump has found a THIRD way to try and rescue the false teaching of OSAS from the truth defining light of "PERSEVERANCE" as found in scripture -- He argues that all of the PERSEVERANCE texts are real - but they only apply to candy that you get during the 1000 year reign with Christ. So as he points out in his comment above - to stop believing is STILL to be saved for "By grace you are saved NO MATTER if you have faith or not" in his view. Doing very much the same thing as the 4 point Calvinists BUT still leaving "some meaning" to the PERSEVERANCE texts of scripture.

4. Obviously the REAL answer is to fully embrace the Bible doctrine on Perseverance AS IT IS STATED in scripture. The Bible teaching on Perseverance was NOT intended to show that "falling from grace" (Gal 5:4) means you NEVER WERE UNDER Grace to start with (debunking the 5 point Calvinist view) - thus debunking the 5 point Calvinist view. Obviously you can not "fall from something you never had"!

And "falling from Grace" (Gal 5) does NOT Mean that "you can be saved APART FROM GRACE and FAITH" debunking both the 4 point Calivnist view and the "other path" that J Jump suggests where the LOST go to heaven but not the Millennial kingdom!

What say you? Do you select the actual Bible based solution of accepting the Biblical doctrine of Perseverance AND the Bible teaching that there is NO such thing as salvation APART from "Christ in you the hope of Glory", "Grace" and "faith" --or do you pick one of the failed solutions instead?

IF you select the Bible solution as noted above then you have picked an "unpopular view" that will get falsely represented.

J Jump said about BobRyan
Bob teaches a works-based eternal salvation message. I have NEVER not even once said eternal salvation is based on ANYTHING other than the finished works of Jesus Christ done on the behalf of the sinner and the sinner's faith in those finished works.

Faith that works only has to do with the 1,000-year kingdom, so there is no way you can lump me into a works-based salvation camp unless you believe the kingdom and eternal salvation are the same thing. And if that is what you believe then you really believe your eternal salvation is only 1000 years long. Not much of an eternal salvation .
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1033709&postcount=55

In Christ,

Bob

 

[webdog]

What say you? Do you select the actual REAL solution or do you pick one of the failed solutions instead?

Why not pick a failed solution...you did!

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

We cannot 'fall from grace' because God's grace is sufficient to keep us.

If we are saved, we will go to Heaven. If we are not saved, we will go to Hell. We WILL spend eternity someplace.

All of our works are as 'filthy rags'.

It matters not what we do or don't do (that does NOT mean that we have a license to sin).

Jesus did it all. It is finished.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Wow, BobRyan, an issue we can agree on. :applause:

 

[Matt Black]

We cannot 'fall from grace' because God's grace is sufficient to keep us.

If we are saved, we will go to Heaven. If we are not saved, we will go to Hell. We WILL spend eternity someplace.

All of our works are as 'filthy rags'.

It matters not what we do or don't do (that does NOT mean that we have a license to sin).

Jesus did it all. It is finished.

So what if you don't want to be saved anymore?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

So what if you don't want to be saved anymore?

Too bad.

The Bible says that NO MAN can pluck us out of Jesus' hand. We are man so that includes us...

Why wouldn't anyone WANT to be saved anymore???

 

[Matt Black]

Ah. So we don't have free will, then?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Ah. So we don't have free will, then?

Yes, we do. We exercised it when we made Jesus the Lord of our lives.

Some decisions in life are irreversible...

 

[mman]

We cannot 'fall from grace' because God's grace is sufficient to keep us.

If we are saved, we will go to Heaven. If we are not saved, we will go to Hell. We WILL spend eternity someplace.

All of our works are as 'filthy rags'.

It matters not what we do or don't do (that does NOT mean that we have a license to sin).

Jesus did it all. It is finished.

You cannot fall from grace? The Apostle Paul, speaking by inspiration, disagrees.

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

The only way to be "severed" from something is to be first connected to it. They were connect to Christ, then cut off. Salvation is only "in Christ" (II Tim 2:10), therefore they were saved, then cut off, or lost. One cannot be in Christ and severed from Christ at the same time. The only way to fall from grace is to be at one time standing in it, then fall away from it.

If falling from grace is an impossibility, then warning against it is, quite frankly, stupid. Since we know the H.S. is not stupid, then it must be not only a possibility, but such a possibility, it is something to be guarded against.

What was their great sin? Did they stop believeing in Jesus? No. They changed to the good new by adding "circumcision" as a requirment, an ordinance under the old law.

Notice Paul's words in I Cor 15:1-2, Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

"If" is a conditional word. They had received the gospel, stood in the gospel, and were being saved by the gospel IF they held fast. What if they didn't hold fast? Then they would have believed in vain, an impossibility if OSAS were really true.

This passage could not be any more plain!

Will any one earn salvation? Of course not. One could not even earn one moment in glory, however, that does not absolve one from their duty to "hold fast".

If OSAS were true, then nobody has been able to adequately explain something to me.

Notice II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Here is my question, If OSAS were true, how could it ever be possible for someone who has escaped the defilements through the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ to be better off having never known the way of righteousness?

The OBVIOUS conclusion to II Pet 2:20-22 is that OSAS is false. I'm sure many will try to twist this from its simple meaning to some obscure meaning that has to be "explained" for people to "understand" it.

One more for you, Col 1:21-23, "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister"

We are only presented as "holy", "unblameable", and "unreproveable in his sight" IF we continue in the faith. Otherwise were are "moved away from the hope of the gospel". One who is moved away, therefore, will be presented as unholy, blameable, and reproveable in his sight.

 

[webdog]

So what if you don't want to be saved anymore?

What if you don't want to be born anymore...can you undo that? Killing yourself isn't undoing your birth, btw.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

OSAS baptists always often emphasis on John 10:28-29 telling us, no man can pluck us out of Christ's hand, proved that we are perserved by God's power. It called, 'security salvation'.

But, John 10:27-29 telling us, Christ promises us, anyone WHO hear His word (commandments, gospel) are folowing Christ same time, while person is stay perseved in Christ's hand by His power LONG AS we continue follow Him. OR, what if we stopped following Christ, then Christ would loosed us out of his hand. Christ doesn't force us to stay with him. We all have choices with our decision, even, we have freewill.

It is very clearly speak of conditional by base upon our decision, not by God's.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[mman]

Too bad.

The Bible says that NO MAN can pluck us out of Jesus' hand. We are man so that includes us...

Why wouldn't anyone WANT to be saved anymore???

Jn 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Jesus sheep follow him. While it is true and comforting that "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand", does not mean that the sheep has lost his free will to follow.

When a sheep stops following of his own free will, it is no longer Jesus' sheep, because He just stated, "My sheep hear my voice...and they follow me".

The parable of the sower, counting the cost, putting one's hand to the plow, building the tower, going to war all show that not all people will finish what they start.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

It all depends on what "falling from grace" means. Does it mean to lose ones salvation? Other scripture Paul wrote contradicts such a notion:

Romans 8:38-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Colossians 2:13-14;
1 Thessalonians 5:10; 2 Timothy 2:13

When we say that we lose our slavation we are saying that our sins were once forgiven but now are not any longer. Its as if the angels have a big eraser "oops he lost his salvation lets take his name out of the book" Wonderful he has regained his salvation, boy that is the third time this month, let's put it back in the book".

Or does falling from grace refer to those who after having come to a knowledge of saving faith were mislead by false teachers in the church into reverting to a works based salvation. Paul said don't buy into such as this would remove you not from the grace of God but from the knowledge of grace on your life into a bondage of works.

But then again such is expected for the SDA. Who live by a works based salvation. You are the ones paul was speaking of.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Romans 8:38-39 say nothing about salvation, it talk about God's unconditional love, anything, cannot separate from God's love toward us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Darron Steele]

It all depends on what "falling from grace" means. Does it mean to lose ones salvation? Other scripture Paul wrote contradicts such a notion:

Romans 8:38-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Colossians 2:13-14;
1 Thessalonians 5:10; 2 Timothy 2:13...

Galatians 5:4 has what can be translated "estranged from Christ" (NKJV), meaning that there the relationship is still there but there is an alienating problem.


KJV "fallen from grace" at the same verse can mean `reverted from trusting grace.' This may mean a loss of salvation, or it may not.

However, I am most concerned about this part:

...
Or does falling from grace refer to those who after having come to a knowledge of saving faith were mislead by false teachers in the church into reverting to a works based salvation. Paul said don't buy into such as this would remove you not from the grace of God but from the knowledge of grace on your life into a bondage of works.

But then again such is expected for the SDA. Who live by a works based salvation. You are the ones paul was speaking of.

Galatians is talking about a far more serious error than focusing too much on the works that faith produces.

Let us think about the situation in Galatians. In this situation, some of the Galatians were buying into the notion that salvation was by keeping the Judaic Law. That was the way it was before Christ came. In essence, the false teachers were teaching that Christ's death did not change anything! They denied the work of Christ!

We throw this Galatians 1:6-8 and Galatians 5:2-4 and other parts of Galatians around against Christians who pay more attention to works resulting from faith than to faith. However, I do not think this book can properly be directed at such Christians -- they do not reach the extreme of denying that Christ changed anything.

 

[James_Newman]

What say you? Do you select the actual Bible based solution of accepting the Biblical doctrine of Perseverance AND the Bible teaching that there is NO such thing as salvation APART from "Christ in you the hope of Glory", "Grace" and "faith" --or do you pick one of the failed solutions instead?

IF you select the Bible solution as noted above then you have picked an "unpopular view" that will get falsely represented.


In Christ,

Bob

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Doesn't Jesus know that we have to believe AND persevere?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

John 6:40 is not speak of unconditonal security salvation. This verse is talk about God's promise to us, that, God's will given to Christ to everyone WHO seeing and believing in Christ SHALL have eternal life, that Christ shall risen them all on the last day (of this present age at second advent). Word, 'seeth' and 'believeth' both are present sense. That mean, we are currently believing in Christ, that we shall receive eternal life by follow at the resurrection on the last day of this present age at the second advent. Or, what if we stop believing in Christ, then we shall not have eternal life by the time we die. Obivously, we have conditional with our decision.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[James_Newman]

Or what if we stop seeing? That would be bad too.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

James,

I believe 'seeth' of John 6:40 is like as have faith. Hebrews 11:1 says, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Our salvation requires base upon our faith. Without faith, impossible to please God, and have no root on salvation.

Same with John 3:3 says, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Christ tells us, we must be born again, or..... we cannot enter eternal life. Begin born again is like as to repent of our sins.

We all know that the kingdom of God/heaven is invisible, and mystery. We cannot see them, because it is invisible, but, we have to believe with faith together. Faith is like as able to understand and accept willing to believe and obedient as what the Lord tells us to do.

Right now, we all not yet see Jesus Christ in person. He is now sitteth on the right hand of God the Father in heaven. But, we have to faith and believe what the Bible saying so.

1 John 3:2 says, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when he(Christ) shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall SEE him as he is." This is speak of our being confidence with our faith having relationship with Christ in our life, while we not yet see him in person, but, we know that we all shall be like him, when he shall appear, and we shall see him. That means, our body all shall be changed into immortality new glorified at the rapture, when Christ shall come, when he appears, we all shall be like Christ's, and we all shall SEE him in person and visibly.

The last part of John 6:40 speaks of eternal life at the second advent, that our body all shall be changed into immortality. Right now, we all have flesh(sinful and sin) because we all born sin come from Adam. We all shall die because of sin. Once, we repent of our sins, believe in Christ, called upon the Lord, then, the Holy Spirit is being sealed in our soul, that doesn't mean we are already automatically secured saved at once, we are now 'being engaged' with Christ - Eph. 1:13-14. Also, Eph. 4:30 warns us, do not grieve the Holy Spirit when we sinning against Holy Spirit, because He is now sealed in us. What if we continue grieve the Holy Spirit, then He would leave from us same as what He did to King Saul and King David too.

We must submit to the Holy Spirit daily as Christ is control our life all the way throughout our life to death or Lord comes. When we endured to the end(at death or Lord coes) then we shall be saved - Matt. 24:13. Then, we shall be finally have eternal life on the last day at Lord's coming. We as faithful Christians shall finally SEE Jesus Christ in person on the last day at His coming.

Understand?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[mman]

It all depends on what "falling from grace" means. Does it mean to lose ones salvation? Other scripture Paul wrote contradicts such a notion:

Romans 8:38-39; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30; Colossians 2:13-14;
1 Thessalonians 5:10; 2 Timothy 2:13

When we say that we lose our slavation we are saying that our sins were once forgiven but now are not any longer. Its as if the angels have a big eraser "oops he lost his salvation lets take his name out of the book" Wonderful he has regained his salvation, boy that is the third time this month, let's put it back in the book".

Or does falling from grace refer to those who after having come to a knowledge of saving faith were mislead by false teachers in the church into reverting to a works based salvation. Paul said don't buy into such as this would remove you not from the grace of God but from the knowledge of grace on your life into a bondage of works.

But then again such is expected for the SDA. Who live by a works based salvation. You are the ones paul was speaking of.

If you will keep reading in Ephesians he says, "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. - Eph 5:3-6

Paul is warning the Ephesian christians how to live. If it were impossible for them to become entangled in this type of sin, then what a waste of time for him to write it and for them (and us) to read it.

Paul doesn't want anyone to be decieved about this. If you are disobedient, you won't have an inheritance in the kingdom of God and Christ and you will have the WRATH of God! This warning is to CHRISTIANS! This is certainly not a warning to the lost.

Don't be decieved!