A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

[BobRyan]

You cannot fall from grace? The Apostle Paul, speaking by inspiration, disagrees.

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

The only way to be "severed" from something is to be first connected to it. They were connect to Christ, then cut off. Salvation is only "in Christ" (II Tim 2:10), therefore they were saved, then cut off, or lost. One cannot be in Christ and severed from Christ at the same time. The only way to fall from grace is to be at one time standing in it, then fall away from it.

If falling from grace is an impossibility, then warning against it is, quite frankly, stupid. Since we know the H.S. is not stupid, then it must be not only a possibility, but such a possibility, it is something to be guarded against.

What was their great sin? Did they stop believeing in Jesus? No. They changed to the good new by adding "circumcision" as a requirment, an ordinance under the old law.

Notice Paul's words in I Cor 15:1-2, Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

"If" is a conditional word. They had received the gospel, stood in the gospel, and were being saved by the gospel IF they held fast. What if they didn't hold fast? Then they would have believed in vain, an impossibility if OSAS were really true.

This passage could not be any more plain!

True - you can not say that the "sign" that you "never had the Word implanted and never were saved is that yo failed to CONTINUE to hold FAST the Word that was implanted and to remain in Christ" you have circular logic.

The sign of never having something can not be failure to RETAIN it!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

OSAS baptists always often emphasis on John 10:28-29 telling us, no man can pluck us out of Christ's hand, proved that we are perserved by God's power. It called, 'security salvation'.

But, John 10:27-29 telling us, Christ promises us, anyone WHO hear His word (commandments, gospel) are folowing Christ same time, while person is stay perseved in Christ's hand by His power LONG AS we continue follow Him. OR, what if we stopped following Christ, then Christ would loosed us out of his hand. Christ doesn't force us to stay with him. We all have choices with our decision, even, we have freewill.

It is very clearly speak of conditional by base upon our decision, not by God's.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Indeed - Matt 18 speaking of "forgiveness REVOKED" Christ said "SO shall My Father do to EACH one of you if YOU do not forgive your brother from your heart" --

Clearly a call for perseverance.

In Rom 11 the same thing "but you should FEAR for if HE did not spare them NEITHER will he spare you" speaking again of the Gal 5:4 problem of "being severed from Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

How many times does the bible have to say something before it is true? If Revelation says thousand years, thousand years it is. Unless you think Revelation should not be in the bible. Then we have another discussion.

I have to agree with James on that one - but what does that have to do with OSAS - unless we are talking about J Jump's solution for OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"Here is my question, If OSAS were true, how could it ever be possible for someone who has escaped the defilements through the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ to be better off having never known the way of righteousness?"

A better question is this "IF OSAS were true we should NOT expect to find such a text as "SEVERED from Christ" and "Fallen From Grace" and "Forgiveness Revoked" and regarding the fallen Jews example saying to Christians "FEAR for Neither will He spare you"

We can fall from grace (backslide) but we do not lose our salvation.

In Gal 5:4 "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen From Grace" has to be "spun around" as OSAS "Saved anyway" just as you have done.

The problem is that now you have to preach a Gospel of "Salvation APART from Christ and Grace and faith".

When the Bible fact is "By GRACE are you saved THROUGH Faith" in Christ,

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The trouble is that I've known plenty who have been far better Christians, far more spiritual than me, who have subsequently fallen away and turned their backs on God. This is borne out by numerous Scriptures in the NT about the need to endure to the end, warnings against falling away etc

As we have been asked to "suppose that OSAS is true for a minute" and then asked questions.

I would ask that we look at Matt's statement above and "suppose that OSAS is false for a moment" -- now ask yourself this... IF Matt is correct AND if OSAS is not true... then it means that Matt is SEEING real genuine born-again salvation experiences that are being "denounced" by a certain group within the OSAS camp as "nope that never was salvation at all".

Now what does that do to ASSURANCE?? It means that REAL salvation experiences WITNESSED by all are being DENOUNCED as "not really salvation".

So then when you see someone in that part of the OSAS camp - you have to wonder HOW they can have assurance AT ALL --- UNTIL they see that ten years from today they STILL remain faithful and do not fail to persevere and so declare today's assurance to be false.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Matt Black]

Indeed. Good point.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

He is talking to saints and warns them not to become sons of disobedience.

What if a saint does act like them? Everyone (including the saints whom he is warning) who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Obviously there is deception. What is that deception? Stating that saints who are sexually immoral or impure, or one who is covetous still has his inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. No, don't be deceived, the wrath of God is coming upon them.

No he is not. Saints cannot become as such. For we have the Holy Ghost living in us. Sons of disobedience do not.

 

[Ed Edwards]

OSAS is about the fidelity of God;
not the perfidy of man.

Being faithful to the Lord,
preserving to one's end --
that is about the duty of saved
humans -- the Lord has already
done His duty in the death, burial,
and Resurrection.

 

[steaver]

OSAS is about the fidelity of God;
not the perfidy of man.

Being faithful to the Lord,
preserving to one's end --
that is about the duty of saved
humans -- the Lord has already
done His duty in the death, burial,
and Resurrection.

Now where did you ever get that idea brother!!!! Oh, that's right, the word of God! :thumbs:

AMEN! brother, it's just to simple for some folks to grasp. :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

A better question is this "IF OSAS were true we should NOT expect to find such a text as "SEVERED from Christ" and "Fallen From Grace" and "Forgiveness Revoked" and regarding the fallen Jews example saying to Christians "FEAR for Neither will He spare you" -- so what are they doing there -- just trying to trick Arminians into beliving them??

So where do we FIND these texts??

Oh that's right! The Bible!!:thumbs:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan)...A better question is this "IF OSAS were true we should NOT expect to find such a text as "SEVERED from Christ" and "Fallen From Grace" and "Forgiveness Revoked" and regarding the fallen Jews example saying to Christians "FEAR for Neither will He spare you" -- so what are they doing there -- just trying to trick Arminians into beliving them??

I know I never saw the words "forgiveness revoked" anywhere. Nor do I see the words "salvation revoked" anywhere in your quote.

Study to show thyself approved! :thumbs: Discernment brother!

God Bless! :wavey:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan:

"A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS"

GE:

So what are you, trying to salvage, dear brother? Do you want to UNDO 'Once Saved Always Saved'? What is in it for you? That there is no surity nor security once one has been saved through Jesus Christ? Then ultimately what, is your, surity and security, dear brother? What?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by mman
You cannot fall from grace? The Apostle Paul, speaking by inspiration, disagrees.

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

GE:

You ARE, severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; of grace ye fell." (Genitive Subject ... not 'from'-'apo' plus Accusative.)

What, if man would be justified by the law, were it not for grace? Genesis 3;24, "Behold, man has become like one of us, to know good and evil: And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever!"
It is mercy even the fact "You ARE, severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Why? So that God may be glorified even in the destruction of the wicked.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan:

"regarding the fallen Jews example saying to Christians "FEAR for Neither will He spare you" -- so what are they doing there -- just trying to trick Arminians into believing them??"

GE:

No; just trying to awaken in your conscience the fear, for neither will He spare you, the Arminians, believe God! 'The Arminians' it seems are saved through fear, although Jesus said love drives out fear. OSAS believers believe themselves saved by grace through faith, trusting God, and entrusting God, with the salvation of their souls.

 

[JDale]

"Here is my question, If OSAS were true, how could it ever be possible for someone who has escaped the defilements through the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ to be better off having never known the way of righteousness?"

We can fall from grace (backslide) but we do not lose our salvation.

To answer your question. Before we were saved, we did not have fellowship with God.

After we were saved, we DID have fellowship with God and the pain is much worse to backslide and lose that fellowship than to never have had it to begin with...

That's still a pretty good deal when you come right down to it. Say one has been a Christian for years -- maybe even a couple of decades. He/She eases back into drinking, carousing, partying -- you know, like ALOT of Baptists -- falls in with the wrong crowd, illicit behavior, maybe drugs, marriage ends, family broken. BUT, hey, no matter how many lives this one destroys, how much anguish this one brings, and most importantly, no matter how FAITHLESS or hostile the Christ this one becomes...This one is going to heaven to spend eternity with a loving Saviour who would NEVER condemn one of His own....

Only problem -- that's NOT what Scripture teaches. There is no security in sin. THere is no such thing as an "unbelieving believer." Once a believer follows Jesus, ALL his/her sin is forgiven, but if they return to a point where they REJECT that faith and DENY the Lord who bought them, there is NO promise of heaven. On the contrary, there remains only apostasy and eternal judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

GE

No; just trying to awaken in your conscience the fear, for neither will He spare you, the Arminians, believe God! 'The Arminians' it seems are saved through fear, although Jesus said love drives out fear. OSAS believers believe themselves saved by grace through faith, trusting God, and entrusting God, with the salvation of their souls.

You seem to be unwittingly arguing that Romans 11 IS speaking to Arminian Christians! In which case Calvinism is doctrinal error sir.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan:

"A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS"

GE:

So what are you, trying to salvage, dear brother? Do you want to UNDO 'Once Saved Always Saved'? What is in it for you? That there is no surity nor security once one has been saved through Jesus Christ? Then ultimately what, is your, surity and security, dear brother? What?

The false doctrine of OSAS is all too easily debunked when contrasted to the pure light of scripture --

Matt 18 - "Forgiveness Revoked" parable.

John 15 "Vines taken out of Christ and burned"

Gal 5:4 "Severed from Christ... FAllen from Grace"

Romans 11 - Branches cast out as the unbelieving Jews "you too FEAR for you stand only by your FAITH - If GOD did not spare THEM then NEITHER will He spare you"

So "what is in it for me" is to expose this false "Peace and Safety" Jeremiah 6:14 doctrine in the light of the obvious, blatant clear warnings of Christ against it.

Christ IS the "Way the TRUTH and the Life" - by accepting the TRUTH of scripture (including the warnings IN scripture) we rely upon Christ alone - not the man-made doctrines of error.

Your belief in OSAS causes you to turn a blind eye to actual BIBLE ASSURANCE sir. In "the BIBLE" assurance is not through the man-made doctrine of OSAS - but through the PRESENT witness of God the Holy Spirit and the WORD "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God" --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I know I never saw the words "forgiveness revoked" anywhere.

It is left as an exercise for the objective reader to SEE if you see what Steaver claims he can not see in Matt 18...

Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

Matt 18
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Matt 18
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.
Matt 18
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues (and motivates Peter via the illustration given as an answer to Peter’s question) that WE who have been forgiven by our heavenly Father “should” as in (are obligated to) forgive others.

 

[JDale]

BobRyan:

"regarding the fallen Jews example saying to Christians "FEAR for Neither will He spare you" -- so what are they doing there -- just trying to trick Arminians into believing them??"

GE:

No; just trying to awaken in your conscience the fear, for neither will He spare you, the Arminians, believe God! 'The Arminians' it seems are saved through fear, although Jesus said love drives out fear. OSAS believers believe themselves saved by grace through faith, trusting God, and entrusting God, with the salvation of their souls.

Well, that's arrogant. Some of "us Arminians" have spent months and posted on multiple threads attempting to educate others that we indeed DO affirm "Salvation by Grace through Faith" and "The Just shall live by Faith."

Evidently Gerhard missed those previous attempts -- either that, or the old adage is true -- there is none so blind as those who WILL NOT see.

JDale