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A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
I Am Blessed 17 said:
"Here is my question, If OSAS were true, how could it ever be possible for someone who has escaped the defilements through the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ to be better off having never known the way of righteousness?"

We can fall from grace (backslide) but we do not lose our salvation.

To answer your question. Before we were saved, we did not have fellowship with God.

After we were saved, we DID have fellowship with God and the pain is much worse to backslide and lose that fellowship than to never have had it to begin with...
Click to expand...

Actually the question you are answering -- remains.

There is NO CASE where Going to heaven and living in blissful eternity and joy with Christ is WORSE then spending eternity tormented in fire and brimstone.

There is just NO WAY to talk/spin/waltz your way around that --

Whoever asked that pointed question above was a genius!!

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
BR;

"So "what is in it for me" is to expose this false "Peace and Safety" Jeremiah 6:14 doctrine in the light of the obvious, blatant clear warnings of Christ against it."

GE:

And in its place you offer ....?
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
mman said:
..."You have been SEVERED from Christ" ..." you have FALLEN from Grace"

The only way to be "severed" from something is to be first connected to it.

If falling from grace is an impossibility, then warning against it is, quite frankly, stupid. Since we know the H.S. is not stupid, then it must be not only a possibility, but such a possibility, it is something to be guarded against.
Click to expand...

Indeed it would like saying "BEWARE of the EASTERBUNNY! And then forgetting to say "OOPS! I forgot to mention NO SUCH THING as EASTERBUNNY!"

mman


If OSAS were true, then nobody has been able to adequately explain something to me.

Notice II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Here is my question, If OSAS were true, how could it ever be possible for someone who has escaped the defilements through the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ to be better off having never known the way of righteousness?

The OBVIOUS conclusion to II Pet 2:20-22 is that OSAS is false.
Click to expand...

This post number 9 was just a great post by MMAN!!

Obviously there is NO CASE where living forever with Christ through all eternity is WORSE than burning in fire and brimstone for all eternity!!

What a great insight MMAN!!

in Christ,

Bob
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
BR;

"So "what is in it for me" is to expose this false "Peace and Safety" Jeremiah 6:14 doctrine in the light of the obvious, blatant clear warnings of Christ against it."

GE:

And in its place you offer ....?
Click to expand...

1. Acceptance of the FULL and COMPLETE Word of God - not just little selective snippets.

2. THE BENEFIT of the warnings of scripture accepted as REAL and Genuinue - not fake and something to be argued against.

3. A complete Exegetically sound - faithful rendering of scripture - no "ear tickling shortcuts".

When God WARNEd Israel in Jeremiah's day it was FOR THEIR BENEFIT - when the false teachers preached "peace and safety instead" it may have SOUNDED more pleasing - but it spelled DOOM for the hearers.

The SAME thing was true in Noah's day

The SAME thing was true in Jonah's day

the SAME thing was true in the days of John the Baptizer

the SAME thing is true today.. REJECTING the warning messages of the bible as "EASTERBUNNY fake warnings" is the path to less light - not more light.

in Christ,

Bob
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
BR:

"Christ IS the "Way the TRUTH and the Life" - by accepting the TRUTH of scripture (including the warnings IN scripture) we rely upon Christ alone - not the man-made doctrines of error.

Your belief in OSAS causes you to turn a blind eye to actual BIBLE ASSURANCE sir. In "the BIBLE" assurance is not through the man-made doctrine of OSAS - but through the PRESENT witness of God the Holy Spirit and the WORD "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God" --"

GE:

I have noticed .... So where do we differ? For show me one OSAS believer who doesn't also believe Christ IS the "Way the TRUTH and the Life" - by accepting the TRUTH of scripture (including the warnings IN scripture) we rely upon Christ alone - not the man-made doctrines of error.
Show me one OSAS believer who does not believe, BIBLE ASSURANCE. In "the BIBLE" assurance is not through the man-made doctrine of free will, but through the PRESENT witness of God the Holy Spirit and the WORD "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God".

Much ado about nothing? No. The issues are much more subtle. False! it thrives on pretence.
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
BobRyan said:
1. Acceptance of the FULL and COMPLETE Word of God - not just little selective snippets.

2. THE BENEFIT of the warnings of scripture accepted as REAL and Genuinue - not fake and something to be argued against.

3. A complete Exegetically sound - faithful rendering of scripture - no "ear tickling shortcuts".

When God WARNEd Israel in Jeremiah's day it was FOR THEIR BENEFIT - when the false teachers preached "peace and safety instead" it may have SOUNDED more pleasing - but it spelled DOOM for the hearers.

The SAME thing was true in Noah's day

The SAME thing was true in Jonah's day

the SAME thing was true in the days of John the Baptizer

the SAME thing is true today.. REJECTING the warning messages of the bible as "EASTERBUNNY fake warnings" is the path to less light - not more light.

in Christ,

Bob
Click to expand...

GE:

I love your enthusiasm -- just like our OSAS adherents.
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Believers in OSAS fall into 2 ditches of error usually (three if you include J Jump's solution for salvaging OSAS).

1. They DENY REAL salvation in the case MATT mentioned where someone IS severed from Christ - someone DOES fall from grace by denying the GRACE and the relationship with Christ that they EVER HAD was in fact REAL. It is a twist of logic that says the PROOF that you were NEVER severed from Christ because you were never saved to start with -- is the fact that you have just been SEVERED from CHRIST!

2. The second error is to completely ignore ALL texts on perseverance and declare that APART from Christ (the one SEVERED) and APART from Grace "the one that FELL from GRACE" there remains still "OSAS SALVATION".

It required ignoring or deleting a lot of scripture.

Why embrace EITHER of those errors sir?

Why not accept the Bible instead?

in Christ,

Bob
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Yes -- JESUS is ALSO the one that said "SO SHALL My FAther do to EACH ONE OF YOU if YOU do not forigve your brother from your heart"/

I believe Him..

Do you?
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
It is left as an exercise for the objective reader to SEE if you see what Steaver claims he can not see in Matt 18...

Matt 18

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

Matt 18
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Matt 18
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.
Matt 18
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues (and motivates Peter via the illustration given as an answer to Peter’s question) that WE who have been forgiven by our heavenly Father “should” as in (are obligated to) forgive others.
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
BR:

"They (OSAS believers) DENY REAL salvation in the case MATT mentioned where someone IS severed from Christ - someone DOES fall from grace by denying the GRACE and the relationship with Christ that they EVER HAD was in fact REAL. It is a twist of logic that says the PROOF that you were NEVER severed from Christ because you were never saved to start with -- is the fact that you have just been SEVERED from CHRIST!"

GE:

Wasn't this in connection with Galatians 4-5? Then it was no 'TWIST' of logic that says the proof that you were never SAVED is the fact you were severed from Christ; then it IS the 'proof'. Then it was, the proof, the fact the Galatians HAD been severed from Christ, they never were founded "in Him" truely!
 
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G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
How could they backslide if they had been founded in Him truely?

You see the difference between free will and free grace! See it!
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
BR:

"They (OSAS believers) DENY REAL salvation in the case MATT mentioned where someone IS severed from Christ - someone DOES fall from grace by denying the GRACE and the relationship with Christ that they EVER HAD was in fact REAL. It is a twist of logic that says the PROOF that you were NEVER severed from Christ because you were never saved to start with -- is the fact that you have just been SEVERED from CHRIST!"

GE:

Wasn't this in connection with Galatians 4-5? Then it was no 'TWIST' of logic that says the proof that you were never SAVED is the fact you were severed from Christ; then it IS the 'proof'. Then it was, the proof, the fact the Galatians HAD been severed from Christ, they never were founded "in Him" truely!
Click to expand...

Boldly stating that you willingly embrace logical contradiction is not a form of "support" for your argument GE.

You can not argue "the PROOF that you never had a wallet is the fact that your wallet was stolen today" -- your argument is absurd sir.
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
mman said:
..."You have been SEVERED from Christ" ..." you have FALLEN from Grace"

The only way to be "severed" from something is to be first connected to it.

If falling from grace is an impossibility, then warning against it is, quite frankly, stupid. Since we know the H.S. is not stupid, then it must be not only a possibility, but such a possibility, it is something to be guarded against.
Click to expand...

Indeed it would like saying "BEWARE of the EASTERBUNNY! And then forgetting to say "OOPS! I forgot to mention NO SUCH THING as EASTERBUNNY!"

mman


If OSAS were true, then nobody has been able to adequately explain something to me.

Notice II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Here is my question, If OSAS were true, how could it ever be possible for someone who has escaped the defilements through the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ to be better off having never known the way of righteousness?

The OBVIOUS conclusion to II Pet 2:20-22 is that OSAS is false.
Click to expand...

This post number 9 was just a great post by MMAN!!

Obviously there is NO CASE where living forever with Christ through all eternity is WORSE than burning in fire and brimstone for all eternity!!

What a great insight MMAN!!

in Christ,

Bob
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
BR:

"
Originally Posted by I Am Blessed 17
"Here is my question, If OSAS were true, how could it ever be possible for someone who has escaped the defilements through the knowledge of our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ to be better off having never known the way of righteousness?"

We can fall from grace (backslide) but we do not lose our salvation.

To answer your question. Before we were saved, we did not have fellowship with God.

After we were saved, we DID have fellowship with God and the pain is much worse to backslide and lose that fellowship than to never have had it to begin with...


BR:

Actually the question you are answering -- remains.

There is NO CASE where Going to heaven and living in blissful eternity and joy with Christ is WORSE then spending eternity tormented in fire and brimstone.

There is just NO WAY to talk/spin/waltz your way around that --

Whoever asked that pointed question above was a genius!"

GE:

There's just no relevance between what Iamblessed says and you say.
 
BobRyan

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
GE - this goes directly to B17's argument that the person has backslidden in that case but is still OSAS saved..

Your pretending not to understand the point is not serving your argument at all.

Giving me more opportunity to expose this flaw in your response is not working for you either. --

Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever??
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
BobRyan / Free Will:

Quote: "OSAS 'once saved always saved' is false".

Jesus:

Quote: "I have given them Thy word. ... Holy Father, keep THROUGH THINE OWN NAME, those whom thou hast given Me ... I KEPT them IN THY NAME : Those Thou hast given Me, I HAVE KEPT, and NONE is lost."

GE:

Choose ye today whom ye will serve, either the gods of your fathers, reason and logic and wisdom, for the Lord you cannot serve. But I and my house, we, SHALL serve the LORD.
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

GE:

There's a difference between knowing and being known. Mt 7 and 25 - "I, never, knew YOU" the fact despite you knew Me - even expected my coming, even went out and bought oil - exerted yourself - to attend the wedding, 'prepared'! I never knew you!
 
G

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
BR:

"Boldly stating that you willingly embrace logical contradiction is not a form of "support" for your argument GE."

GE:

The mystery of Godliness isn't 'logical', but contradicts human wisdom; is foolishness - stupidity- to it.
 
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