A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

[Lacy Evans]

How surprising that one can not discuss certain parts of the Bible when trying to build a case for OSAS - when those texts deal EXPLICITLY with the idea of what happens AFTER one is saved

"Forgiveness revoked" for example Matt 18

The word "till" in verse 34 proves that this is temporary.

"REMOVED from Christ and cast into fire" John 15

"SEVERED from Christ" and "FALLEN from Grace" Gal 5:4

"REMOVED from Christ alike the unfaithful Jews" Romans 11

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Again a temporary fire and a temporary separation.

Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

When Hell is emptied out at the GWT (after the MK) notice verse 15 says that only those not found in the Book of Life are cast into the LOF!

If the man is saved, his name was written in the book. He is out of Hell and not going to the LOF! This is the restoration of what happened in Matt 18, John 15, Gal 5, and Rom. 11.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This is the second wiping away of tears (The 1st one happened in Rev 7:17 before the MK.) This is after the MK. This is eternity, the New Heaven and Earth. Who in the world would have been crying for the past 1000 years?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here is the unconditional promise. Not that we will rule in the Kingdom (Gal 5:19-21) There are conditions applied to that promise.

But that on the last day, we will be raised up.

Lacy

 

[BobRyan]

John 15 is NOT a promise of "Salvation" to those who are cast out of christ and then spiritually DIE and then are burned.

1Cor 3 IS NOT a statement about someone being "removed from christ" OR being "Withered and spiritually dead" NOR is it a statement about a PERSON being "cast into fire".

By ignoring scripture and relying upon the ignorance of the reader - we can easily pretend to merge those to texts no matter how abusive that is to the CONTEXTs for each chapter -- but those methods do not hold up to close exegetical review. They do not hold for serious Bible students.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away[/b]; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up[/b]; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The illustration is painfully clear to the objective unbiased reader. The branch REMOVED from the vine DOES dry up and when cast into the fire it is burned TO ASHES. It does not rise from the ashes come back to life and re-attach itself to the vine. Rather this is “destruction by fire and being reduced to ASHES”

The sad truth for those who need to hope for salvation AWAY from Christ – OUTSIDE of Christ – is that there is “NONE”!


Rom 11:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, [b]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/quote]


They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

Rom 11:
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.[/b]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

BobRyan,

Amen. Well saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Lacy Evans]

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away[/b]; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up[/b]; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The illustration is painfully clear to the objective unbiased reader. The branch REMOVED from the vine DOES dry up and when cast into the fire it is burned TO ASHES. It does not rise from the ashes come back to life and re-attach itself to the vine. Rather this is “destruction by fire and being reduced to ASHES”

It is painfully clear if all you see in the Bible is saved or lost. In your mind, cut off and cast into the fire can mean nothing but having lost eternal salvation. But disobedient Jonah came up out of eternal Hell.

Jonah 2

1. Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
6. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.
10. And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

And so will a bunch of folks in Rev 20:15

Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psalms 88:1-7
1 O Lord God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:
2 Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry;
3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.
7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.

Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Lamentations 3:55 I called upon thy name, O Lord, out of the low dungeon.

These guys musta been having a really bad day.

Lacy

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

You interpreting these scriptures into literally.

You intepreting of Jonah. It shows that Jonah came out of hell as he got out of whale's belly.

But, this passage doesn't mean that, it supports of millennial exclusion teaching.

First, I believe Jonah was in the belly(stomach) of whale or shark - literal and phsyical, as what it recorded.

Notice, Jonah 2:1-2 say: "Then Jonah PRAYED unto the LORD has God out of the fish's belly. And SAID, I(Jonah) cried by reason of mine afflication unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardst my voice."

It shows us, that the condition within inside of fish's belly taste or feel like as a hell, shows that, it is very misery and grouchy. It does not mean that Jonah is already in hell literally, fact that he was not yet die, he was still alive. He was suffering inside fish's belly for 3 days and 3 nights. While he was still alive, he did repented to God while in fish's belly. God did listened Jonah's prayer. Then, God caused the mouth of whale vomit Jonah out.

Lacy,

This passage have do nothing with millennial exclusion or purgatory either.

Jonah was in the belly of whale, it shows us the picture of hell what it looks like.

Afterward, Jonah did preached in Nineveh, and they repented, then after that, he was still bitter with God. What happened to him after? Was he still righteousness(saved) by the time he died(physical with soul)? Does the Bible telling us that, Jonah is now in the heaven? Silence.

Only one thing that I know, King Saul is now in hell, because he turned away from the Lord, and the Holy Spirit departed from him. Also, he commited suicide by strike his sword into his stomach by himself.

Also, you show us of Psa. 86:13, 88:1-7; 116:3; 139:8. You intepreting them into literally. King David was not yet in hell while he was still alive. David's points that, he told us, God is sovereign, He have power over everything. These have do nothing with millennial exclusion, purgatory, and even, also security salvation too.

You take 1 Samuel 2:6 as one verse to prove us, this verse show us of literally, that the Lord did bring a person out of hell to make alive.

Understand, you have to read context from 1 Samuel 2:6-9 talk about God's sovereign.

I understand verse 6 speaks of Lord's power to alive us alive again, which speaks of resurrection. Jesus Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection, so, therefore, Christ make us alive again - risen from the graves. THis verse doesn't prove us that a person is already in hell literally, but, it speaks of DEATH in the grave.

Lamentations 3:55 speaks of death in the grave, also, it speaks of resurrection, and God's sovereign.

Your intereting of these scriptures have do nothing with unconditional salvation, security salvation, & millennial exclusion.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE:

'Debunking OSAS'
God speaking: (They haven't heard the first time!)
"Holy Father, keep through thine own Name those who thou hast given me"?
"I, kept them in thy Name"?
"Keep them, that they may be one as we are ... I in them, and thou in Me"?
"The glory thou gavest Me I have given them"? "I am glorified in them"?
"This is eternal life, that they might know thee ... and Jesus Christ"?

Does God, 'debunk OSAS'?
Debunk God, then debunk OSAS!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DRfuss:

"There is no scripture that establishes OSAS, only encouragement scriptures that are interpreted to mean OSAS. For a scripture to establish OSAS, it would have to say a Christian can not (or will not) stop trusting Christ as Savior. There is no such scripture. For instance, a scripture many OSAS Christians like to use to support OSAS is John 10: 27,28. “My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no man can snatch them out of my hand.”

GE:

Man, just take Jesus' word for what it is! Listen! while for a moment you stop telling God what He says! Or simply you are telling God He lies!

To me it seems you Drfuss are a perfect specimen of one blinded so as not to see.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BobRyan,

Amen. Well saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

GE:

The Apple-pie Sauce Club!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy,

You interpreting these scriptures into literally.

You intepreting of Jonah. It shows that Jonah came out of hell as he got out of whale's belly.

Jonah's body came out of the whale. But did the whale swim down to the bottoms of the mountains, the bars of the earth, to corruption(Jon 2:6)?

I didn't take the verses literally, persay. I have taken them prophetically. They don't just teach nothing. They are pictures, like puzzle pieces with aparrantly no spot to fit.

Lacy

 

[drfuss]

DRfuss:

"There is no scripture that establishes OSAS, only encouragement scriptures that are interpreted to mean OSAS. For a scripture to establish OSAS, it would have to say a Christian can not (or will not) stop trusting Christ as Savior. There is no such scripture. For instance, a scripture many OSAS Christians like to use to support OSAS is John 10: 27,28. “My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no man can snatch them out of my hand.”

And they follow me.” To be his sheep, a Christian must continue to follow Him. Christ does not force us to follow Him. If a Christian decides to stop trusting Christ, he takes Himself out of His hand. If OSAS was true, then the scripture should say “And they cannot stop following me.” The fact that it does not say “cannot stop following Him” implies to me that OSAS is not correct.


GE:

Man, just take Jesus' word for what it is! Listen! while for a moment you stop telling God what He says! Or simply you are telling God He lies!

To me it seems you Drfuss are a perfect specimen of one blinded so as not to see.

drfuss: Just wanted to complete my quote on that scripture that GE only posted a part of. As I said in the rest of my post, non-OSAS Christians can be just as sure of their continuing salvation as OSAS Christians are. So OSAS Christians don't risk anything by considering the other belief. I considered both.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked"

The word "till" in verse 34 proves that this is temporary.


Again a temporary fire and a temporary separation.

The unbiased objective reader will not go for that dodge.

#1. The text speaks to the FORGIVNESS needed by each sinner and available ONLY through God.

#2. That forgiveness was granted and THEN REVOKED so that the sinner now must pay HIS OWN original debt.

#3. The wages of SIN is NOT purgatory-then-heaven - and the reader is going to know that.

Your argumnt failed.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"REMOVED from Christ and cast into fire" John 15

"SEVERED from Christ" and "FALLEN from Grace" Gal 5:4

"REMOVED from Christ alike the unfaithful Jews" Romans 11

Lacy
Quote:
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Again a temporary fire and a temporary separation.
Quote:

1 Cor 3 is NoT addressing being severed from Christ OR Fallen from GRACE OR removed from CHRIST or purgatory!

1Cor 3 the comparison is between two FAITHFUL evangelists IN CHRISt - Paul and Apollos and NEITHEr of them fallen from grace NEITHER of them severed from Christ. The issue in 1cor 3 is the TEACHING of the Evangelist NOT the faith relationship to Christ.

Inferior TEACHING is purged away according to 1 Cor 3 -- but the EVANGELIST's motives, faith, relationship is not being qustioned at all!

No purgatory here!

No paying for your own debt of sin!

No being severed from Christ in 1Cor 3

No "fallen from Grace" in 1Cor 3

No being cast out due to lack of faith - along with unbelieving Jews (ROM 11) in 1Cor 3!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

" .... 1 Cor 3 is NOT addressing being severed from Christ OR Fallen from GRACE OR removed from CHRIST or purgatory!

1Cor 3 the comparison is between two FAITHFUL evangelists IN CHRISt - Paul and Apollos and NEITHEr of them fallen from grace NEITHER of them severed from Christ. The issue in 1cor 3 is the TEACHING of the Evangelist NOT the faith relationship to Christ.

Inferior TEACHING is purged away according to 1 Cor 3 -- but the EVANGELIST's motives, faith, relationship is not being qustioned at all!

No purgatory here!

No paying for your own debt of sin!

No being severed from Christ in 1Cor 3

No "fallen from Grace" in 1Cor 3

No being cast out due to lack of faith - along with unbelieving Jews (ROM 11) in 1Cor 3!!

in Christ,

Bob

GE:

Thank you Bob, I gained much through this post of yours. Have never seen this Scripture in this light.

(Ps, not a member of the Apple-Pie Sauce Society!)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jn15:2, "Every branch not bearing fruit in Me (my Father) takes (away / removes). And every fruit bearing (branch), that one He prunes that it can bear more fruit."

Bird-grafted parasitic 'branches' -- like the devil's seeds sown between the good seeds of God's sowing -- the Father removes.
The tree is known by its fruit even if but one. (Like this season a gigantic tree next door.) Branches of the true vine cannot help but bear fruit; even by the help of God the Father only, can it bear more fruit - but never different fruit. The tree that didn't bear fruit for the one year, got another year to do so. God's longsuffering with those His Own is immeasurably greater.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:

""SEVERED from Christ" and "FALLEN from Grace" Gal 5:4"

That's Bob's edition.

Paul's edition: "You ARE, severed from Christ" and "you ARE fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.

The difference tells the difference between the figment of free will and the fact of Free Grace.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked"

It's not there! Retribution and justice are! "O thou WICKED servant, ALL THAT DEBT, THAT, I forgave thee, because thou besoughtest me!"

"Forgiveness revoked"? Then God like a movie-reel would rewind His whole Plan of Redemption.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"I will not remember thy sins; I have blotted out as a cloud thy sins! Thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption, for Thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back ... The living, the living, he shall praise Thee -- the LORD READY TO SAVE me!"

 

[BobRyan]

"Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked"

It's not there! .

And now for the Bible "instead" of GE story telling.

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


GE has imagined that instead of listening to scripture in this case - we should ignore it and listen to GE stories.

Let the objective unbiased reader decide for him/her self which course to pursue.

in Christ,

Bob.

 

[Lacy Evans]

And now for the Bible "instead" of GE story telling.


34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

What do you do with the "until he should repay all"? And don't try to tell me it's hypothetical or something. That God didn't really mean it? Hyperbole?

REV 20:15