A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

[BobRyan]

Nope - I view it as LITERALLY TRUE.

The servant COMES to the king OWING a great debt and is forgiven that GREAT Debt.

Christ argues that WE are that servant that our DEBT OF SIN is GREAT and we need forgiveness from the Father.

He also argues that WE GET it.

Now let me ask you a question WHAT is the DEBT OWED for sin??

Is it "HEAVEN"??

Is it torment THEN HEAVEN??

My argument is that the Parable shows the SAME DEBT OWED being RETURNED and fully paid by the sinner. IT DOES NOT speak to "joy and heaven" for the sinner AFTER the payment for the FULL debt owed is made IN FULL by the sinner as you have imagined.

And I insist that FULL and COMPLETE debt is paid by the sinner for as Rev 14:10 says they are "TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His holy ones" and ultimately completely "DESTROYED BOTH BODY AND SOUL in fiery hell" MAtt 10:28

No "HEAVEN" for the wicked who FULLY PAY their OWN debt of sin!!

Think about it Lacy - IF mankind COULD fully pay it's OWN full debt of sin AND ALSO GO TO HEAVEN why would we need a Savior???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

Nope - I view it as LITERALLY TRUE.

The servant COMES to the king OWING a great debt and is forgiven that GREAT Debt.

Christ argues that WE are that servant that our DEBT OF SIN is GREAT and we need forgiveness from the Father.

He also argues that WE GET it.

Now let me ask you a question WHAT is the DEBT OWED for sin??

Is it "HEAVEN"??

Is it torment THEN HEAVEN??

Everything with you is either Heaven or Hell (LOF).

Luke 12:47. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Which one of these, in your view, (Many stripes, few stripes) is Eternal heaven and which is the eternal LOF?

How can you get Eternity out of either scenario?

When we are disobedient, we need mercy fron our Master. (Unless one just happens to enjoy chastizement) If we show no mercy, we'll be given none, but rather the full measure of the stripes.

My argument is that the Parable shows the SAME DEBT OWED being RETURNED and fully paid by the sinner. IT DOES NOT speak to "joy and heaven" for the sinner AFTER the payment for the FULL debt owed is made IN FULL by the sinner as you have imagined.

My argument is that the unforgiving servant is called a servant throughout. Salvation is never even in question. The debt is a payable debt (Or it never would have said so.) so it cannot be our eternal sin debt. It must be a "debt" like in the Lord;s prayer that we ask daily forgiveness of. It must be the "debt" we incur in our daily walk when we are disobedient.

It is possible for us, like Peter to "dirty our feet", but we will never again require a full washing. Christ says you are clean. (But if you don't get your feet washed regularly, then "thou hast no part with me."

And I insist that FULL and COMPLETE debt is paid by the sinner for as Rev 14:10 says they are "TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His holy ones" and ultimately completely "DESTROYED BOTH BODY AND SOUL in fiery hell" MAtt 10:28

Go ahead and insist it, but I guarantee noone ever got his eternal sin debt forgiven by forgiving his fellowservant. And which ever side of salvation (getting it or keeping it) this requirement is added to, it comes up salvation by works.

Think about it Lacy - IF mankind COULD fully pay it's OWN full debt of sin AND ALSO GO TO HEAVEN why would we need a Savior???

in Christ,

Bob

This is the whole reason I am saying you misinterpreted the verse. If it is payable (And you'll have to explain to me why God would mention that the sentence is temporary, the servant stays only UNTIL the debt is paid, if it was not.) then it must be a sanctification issue and not a justification issue.

Also notice that the language of the "master" never changes. The unforgiving SERVANT is still a servant, his Fellowservants are still fellowSERVANTS, allthe way through the judgement, the sentencing, and the executing of the sentence. He is never addressed as an enemy.

lacy

 

[BobRyan]

Everything with you is either Heaven or Hell (LOF).

True - I am no good at proving purgatory.

Luke 12:47. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Which one of these, in your view, (Many stripes, few stripes) is Eternal heaven and which is the eternal LOF?

BOTH are the LOF -- called "fiery hell" in Matt 10:28.

There are "no beatin's in heaven"

The whole idea of Gospel salvation is so that you DON't go to hell!!

Get it?

How can you get Eternity out of either scenario?

Neither one is "eternal beating"

Neither one is "here is what we do in heaven".

My argument is that the unforgiving servant is called a servant throughout. Salvation is never even in question.

Salvation IS in question when the servant comes to the KING and finds that HE OWES a massive debt that he can not "afford" to pay.

IN this case it is the SINNER who stands before the SOVEREIGN OF ALL the Universe (yes that includes the patch of land you live on).

That sinner NEEDS salvation - NEEDS blood-bought forgiveness. And he get's it!!

THEN Christ argues that JUST as CHRIST freely forgave US SO WE should in like manner forgive those who owe a debt to US (tiny tiny by comparison obviously).

Your idea of "can't make this about REAL Gospel forgiveness" is pure eisegesis. You are arguing ideas that you NEED TO INSERT into the text to protect one of your biased - pet views you are not letting the text SPEAK in the details because "the details" do not please the man-made traditions that you prefer.

The debt is a payable debt (Or it never would have said so.) so it cannot be our eternal sin debt.

The only thing ETERNAL about our debt of sin is that we will be ETERNALLY destroyed along with "the devil and his angels" Matt 25


No coming back from that and then going to heaven.


Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b][/quote]

Luke 12
4 ""I say to you, My friends, [b]do not be afraid of those who kill the body[/b] and after that have no more that they can do.
5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell[/b]; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

It must be a "debt" like in the Lord;s prayer that we ask daily forgiveness of. It must be the "debt" we incur in our daily walk when we are disobedient.

There is only ONE kind of sin -- there are NOT "venial and then mortal" sins where SOME are paid by Christ and OTHERS paid only by you.

NOTICE that in the parable the servant HAS HIS DEBT FORGIVEN.

Romans 6 "The Wages of sin is DEATH".

Matt 25

34 ""Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 "For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 ""Then the righteous will answer Him, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 "And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 "When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "" The King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 ""Then He will also say to those on His left, " Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire (everlasting fire KJV) which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Your argument is that we share in the punishment with Satan and SURVIVE IT to go to heaven. There is no SURVIVING that final torment and destruction -- you suffer and are DESTROYED "BOTH body AND soul" in that single one-time fate shared with the Devil and his angels.

It is possible for us, like Peter to "dirty our feet", but we will never again require a full washing. Christ says you are clean. (But if you don't get your feet washed regularly, then "thou hast no part with me."

THERE IS ONLY ONE kind of forgiveness and that is "blood bought" forgiveness.

Heb 9 "Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins".

EVEN in the Lord's supper and footwashing it is the BLOOD OF CHRIST ALONE that forgives sins.

SHOULD you have to pay your OWN debt of sin - then it will be "along with the Devil and his angels" it will be a fate from which there is no "coming back and then going to heaven".

FOR EACH sin committed there is an exact amount of torment and suffering owed and then the eternal death of the lake of fire "destruction by reducing them to ashes". NO COMING back from those ashes ma'am.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

BOTH are the LOF -- called "fiery hell" in Matt 10:28.

There are "no beatin's in heaven"

The whole idea of Gospel salvation is so that you DON't go to hell!!

Get it?

Neither one is "eternal beating"

Neither one is "here is what we do in heaven"

So the "few-stripe" guy and the "many-stripe" guy go to the LOF, get their respected whippings and then what? Are you saying that the LOF is not eternal?

Seems to me a scriptural (and a common sense) definition of "stripes" would be a big help.

Psalms 89:31-33
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

Also read Lev. 26:14-46 for a good idea of jut how far God's chastening and forgiveness goes.

Salvation IS in question when the servant comes to the KING and finds that HE OWES a massive debt that he can not "afford" to pay.

Pleae tell me exactly when the issue of salvation is finally settled. How good do we have to be to keep it and how bad do we have to be to lose it?

The issue of salvation is already settled when the servant got saved!

IN this case it is the SINNER who stands before the SOVEREIGN OF ALL the Universe (yes that includes the patch of land you live on).

Texas aint no patch!:tonofbricks:

There is only ONE kind of sin -- there are NOT "venial and then mortal" sins where SOME are paid by Christ and OTHERS paid only by you.

So what is chastisement? What (besides sin) would cause a Christian to be chastened by God, his Father? According to your POV God would be bound by His own Word to throw any saved person who sins willfully just once into the LOF.

Your argument is that we share in the punishment with Satan and SURVIVE IT to go to heaven. There is no SURVIVING that final torment and destruction -- you suffer and are DESTROYED "BOTH body AND soul" in that single one-time fate shared with the Devil and his angels.

No I believe he is destroyed. then raised up just like Rev 20:15 implies.

THERE IS ONLY ONE kind of forgiveness and that is "blood bought" forgiveness.

Heb 9 "Without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sins".

While I agree with that statement, it can't mean that a man has to get saved again every time he sins. That is absolutely unbiblical. A Christian only needs to repent and ask for forgiveness. He already has the blood . . .permanently.

The blood of Christ is not so impotent that it grows weary of our sin and ceases to be effectual.

EVEN in the Lord's supper and footwashing it is the BLOOD OF CHRIST ALONE that forgives sins.

I agree in an eternal sense, but Hebrews 10:26 says For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

There is no further appeal to the blood (in an eternal sense) either possible or necessary. The foot washing is not an application of blood. It is an application of water, which always follows the application of blood. The type throughout the scripture is absolutely without flaw. Blood first (Salvation/sonship) then water (sanctification/fellowship).

Salvation/sonship is based on the absolutly perfect work of Christ and is therefore impeccable.

Sanctification/fellowship is based on our works and is subject to familial judgment.

SHOULD you have to pay your OWN debt of sin - then it will be "along with the Devil and his angels" it will be a fate from which there is no "coming back and then going to heaven".

When God is through chastening, he stops. No son ever got a whipping forever.

FOR EACH sin committed there is an exact amount of torment and suffering owed and then the eternal death of the lake of fire "destruction by reducing them to ashes". NO COMING back from those ashes ma'am.

Are you saying they are annhilated? That is a JW doctrine, I didn't think ya'll believed that?

Lacy

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And now for the Bible "instead" of GE story telling.

32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''


GE has imagined that instead of listening to scripture in this case - we should ignore it and listen to GE stories.

Let the objective unbiased reader decide for him/her self which course to pursue.

in Christ,

Bob.

GE:

O no, Bobbie mate, the 'lord' revoked no forgiveness of 'debt' or sin 'forgiven' the 'wicked servant'. "All 'THAT'-'ekeinehn', 'debt'-'opheilehn', you begged me", I 'wrote off'-'aphehka'. What sin did the 'lord' 'deliver the servant to the tormentors for? For no sin the forgiveness of which was 'revoked' as you time after time and unashamedly, MIS-quote the passage!

Strictly correct, there is not even word of 'forgiveness of SIN' in here. The 'debt' was debt, not 'sin'. "THAT" the lord wrote off. The ONLY real 'sin' was this debtor's misbehaviour towards his (temporal) debtors. That, the 'lord' for NO MOMENT forgave him!

Let the objective unbiased reader decide for him/her self which course to pursue.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And how would you say is a man able to pay for his own s-i-n?

 

[BobRyan]

Going to fiery hell (the Lake of Fire) is the result of sinners who do NOT have Christ's payment FOR THEM -- they are paying the punishment - debt of their own sin. But they do not "SURVIVE IT" as Lacy has supposed. This is their final end.

 

[BobRyan]

So the "few-stripe" guy and the "many-stripe" guy go to the LOF, get their respected whippings and then what? Are you saying that the LOF is not eternal?

Seems to me a scriptural (and a common sense) definition of "stripes" would be a big help.

In the LOF we have the TORMENT of Rev 14:10-11 AND we have eternal fire "DESTRUCITON BY REDUCING THEM TO ASHES" as seen in the following texts...(Which contrary to the belief of "some" were NOT written by JWs)


Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ argues that we should not fear first death scenarios – but rather second death. Do now fear what wicked men plan to do regarding the first death – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul.

This is a good place to stop and admit what happens TO THE BODY in this FIRST death case of “kill body but NOT soul”. In this case the body is BOTH killed AND destroyed to the point of reducing to DUST. Christ argues that what is ONLY done to the BODY in the first death – is done to BOTH body AND SOUL in the second death!

Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )


They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God.

This is the same “everlasting fire” that we see Christ speaking of in Matt 25
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Lacy --

Seems to me a scriptural (and a common sense) definition of "stripes" would be a big help.


Quote:
Psalms 89:31-33
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

Also read Lev. 26:14-46 for a good idea of jut how far God's chastening and forgiveness goes.

A. That does not happen in hell
B. That says nothing about stripes after death for Israel.
C. NATIONS don't go to hell INDIVIDUALS do - this is NATIONAL chastisement but not actual PAYMENT for sins.

To SEE STRIPES as in the Luke context in the OT -- try Isaiah 53


He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4
Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But [b]the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.[/B]
7
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?[/b]
9



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Lacy

Quote:
EVEN in the Lord's supper and footwashing it is the BLOOD OF CHRIST ALONE that forgives sins.

I agree in an eternal sense, but Hebrews 10:26 says For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

There is no further appeal to the blood (in an eternal sense)

This is yet another case of OSAS lost and nothing left but "A TERRIFYING EXPECTATION of judgment to come" according to Heb 10.

No way to SPIN that into the Gospel "WELCOME blessed of My Father"...

NO way to SPIN that into "HEAVEN anyway"!


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This is yet another case of OSAS lost and nothing left but "A TERRIFYING EXPECTATION of judgment to come" according to Heb 10.

No way to SPIN that into the Gospel "WELCOME blessed of My Father"...

NO way to SPIN that into "HEAVEN anyway"!


in Christ,

Bob

If that is true then the only conclusion possible, according to this verse, is that all it takes is ONE WILFULL SIN, and we're off to the LOF!

Please comment?

Love, Lacy

PS. I'm not trying to be annoying but could you please address these: I have answered your questions, every one to the best of my ability.

This is the 4th time I have posted these questions directed to you.

• How much sin do I have to do, in order to overwhelm the power of Christ's blood and lose my salvation? (If your position is correct, Heb10:26 MUST teach that one willful sin can send us irrevocably spiraling into an eternal LOF)
• Can I ever know I am saved for sure, 100% positive that I will never lose it?
• If I can't know for sure, then how do I ever get saved, because knowing/believing that Christ paid ALL of my sin debt is part of being saved?
• What is meant by the phrase "Never thirst again"?
• Please prove from the OT scriptures that at least one Israelite who looked at the brass serpent, went back and was killed by the snakes.
• Please explain what the phrase "born again" means, and in so doing show how someone can enter back into the womb (Physically or spiritually) again.
• Please explain how requiring works to "stay saved" is essentially different from requiring works to"be saved".

• Is God the same as "the Kingdom of God"?

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,



If that is true then the only conclusion possible, according to this verse, is that all it takes is ONE WILFULL SIN, and we're off to the LOF!

Please comment?

John says

" I write these things to you that you sin NOT but if anyone DOES sin we have an ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER". (Hint - I use CAPS for emphasis not volume because I am too lazy to do the underline-bold thing -- usually)

The Bible does NOT teach that each time you sin you are lost NOR that ou must go to hell because after coming to Christ "you sinned once".:laugh:

Rather we HAVE an advocate with the Father - the REAL blood-bought forgiveness is available through Christ OUR Advocate after being born again AFTER being SAVED.

However Heb 10 deals with willful rebellion against God -- just as we see in Heb 6.

Love, Lacy

PS. I'm not trying to be annoying but could you please address these: I have answered your questions, every one to the best of my ability.

This is the 4th time I have posted these questions directed to you.

Lacy - I am sorry that I did not see this question before. I am very happy to address the point.

And thank you for starting a thread on the subject of hell and whether or not the saints go there on their way to heaven. I think that the subject deserves it's own thread so that the various points of view can all come out on that subject.

Well done Ma'am.

God's blessings.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

J
Well done Ma'am.

I was wondering why you were being so polite to me.

I'm a man. So let er rip!!


(Common mistake by the way)

Lacy

 

[BobRyan]

Lacey

• How much sin do I have to do, in order to overwhelm the power of Christ's blood and lose my salvation? (If your position is correct, Heb10:26 MUST teach that one willful sin can send us irrevocably spiraling into an eternal LOF)
• Can I ever know I am saved for sure, 100% positive that I will never lose it?
• If I can't know for sure, then how do I ever get saved, because knowing/believing that Christ paid ALL of my sin debt is part of being saved?
• What is meant by the phrase "Never thirst again"?
• Please prove from the OT scriptures that at least one Israelite who looked at the brass serpent, went back and was killed by the snakes.
• Please explain what the phrase "born again" means, and in so doing show how someone can enter back into the womb (Physically or spiritually) again.
• Please explain how requiring works to "stay saved" is essentially different from requiring works to"be saved".

• Is God the same as "the Kingdom of God"?

There is only ONE God and that is the God of the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

He is "THE SAME yesterday today and forever".

There is only "ONE HEAVEN" in terms of the saints and the afterlife - that is the "promise of the Gospel".

There is also only one "NEW EARTH" that will be formed as we are told in Rev 21 AFTER the 1000 years -- literal 1000 year millennium.

As my previous post points out - we are not lost nor doomed to hell with each sin we commit after being born again (saved) because we HAVE an advocate with the Father.

Losing salvation has NOTHING to do with "overwhelming Christ" or overwhelming GOD or overwhelming...

Adam did NOT overwhelm God to become lost.
Lucifer did not Overwhelm God to become Satan.

God has sovereignly CHOSEN to CREATE and SUSTAIN a "free will universe" where His creation have CHOICE. CHOICE before coming to Christ and CHOICE even AFTER they come to Christ.

In Matt 18 Christ HIMSELF tells us what it takes to get to the point of "FORGIVENESS REVOKED". Our part is to read and accept it.

There is NO PURGATORY - the Devil and his angels are going to the eternal fire prepared for them and SO ALSO are all who do not accept the Gospel avenue of ESCAPE and the ONLY form of "forgiveness of sin" that EXISTS.

The ONLY form of salvation AND REAL forgiveness of sin is through the atoning blood of Christ given as a substitute for the sinner so that WE DO NOT have to go to "fiery hell" (the LOF).

Romans 8 provides the ONLY way that you can know for sure that you are NOW saved and that is via the Work and ministry of "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT". You can have that assurance right now "The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God" Rom 8:16.

But it is TRANSACTIONAL - simply reading the words like every other lost person in the Matt 7 scenario -- does not make you saved.

When we are "BORN AGAIN" we have a NEW CREATION created within - one that seeks after God - that needs to grow in grace each day -- an infant in Christ.

ADAM did not have to be "UNCREATED to fall into REAL condemention".

the SAINTS do not have to BE UNBORN to experience the LOSS of eternal life and "forgiveness REVOKED".

It never has required such a thing -- never will.

Those ideas of "the unborn" are just cheap marketing tricks -- clever spin doctoring but they are NOT found in scripture.

I believe this covers your list of questions -- if not please point to any question I have left out of this list and I will gladly address it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I was wondering why you were being so polite to me.

I'm a man. So let er rip!!


(Common mistake by the way)

Lacy

Yes sir -- will do. I will not be using the "E" any more in Lacey.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[mman]

Why would anybody even try?

I'm confortable with and believe in OSAS. I'm sorry you don't. Apparently I have more faith in your salvation than you do.

Pity.

II Tim 4:3-4 . For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Don't follow the myth of OSAS, no matter how pleasing it is to your ears.

Gal 5:4, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace”. The inspired apostle states that those Christians who turn to Moses’ law for salvation (in addition to the gospel, i.e., requires circumcision in addition to the gospel) are “severed from Christ.” Two points should be considered, first, one cannot be severed from that to which he was never joined; hence, we are dealing with apostate children of God. Second, these rebels stand severed from Christ; if one stands separated from the Lord, he certainly is not in a saved position. Reflect upon this thought, if being “in grace” denotes salvation (see Romans 5:2; Acts 13:43), why wouldn’t being “away from grace” signify condemnation?

Gal 5:7, “You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?”. Were they obeying the truth? No. Had they been? Yes. It could be said that they had wandered from the truth. James also addresses this in James 5:19-20, “My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

What is the result of wandering from the truth? Death! Rationalize all you want, but this is death that results from sin (See also James 1:14-15). This is the death of a soul as clearly pointed out by this passage.

What is the consequence for not continuing to “obey the truth”? Rom 2:6-8, “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

The eternal life will be given, not before any works are done, but according to the works that are done. In like manner, wrath and fury awaits those who do not obey the truth.

We also know from other passages, that our deeds do not earn us salvation, so don’t let anyone think I am advocating a “works based” salvation.

The sinner has wrath and fury awaiting him. Only the patient one who continues in doing well has eternal life awaiting him.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Therefore, we will be judged, not on hearing and believing the words of Christ, but upon what we do. James said, “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” I think many are deceived today, just as James said they would be. Now do deceived people know they are deceived? Of course not, otherwise, they would not be deceived.

James also says, “If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.”

Worthless religion? What is this guy’s problem? Unbelieving? No. Insincerity? No, not that either. He can’t control his tongue. If OSAS were true, no one’s religion would ever be worthless.

It’s a grave mistake to only focus on the verses that support your position. There are numerous verses that are conditional. Look at that little word “if”, found throughout the NT.

While many passages listed in support of OSAS provide great comfort to the faithful, they provide no comfort to those who have wandered from the truth (James 5:19-20), stopped walking in the light (I Jn 1:7), stopped confessing their sins (I Jn 1:9).

While it is true that “no one can snatch them out of my hand”, that promise is only for His sheep who hear and follow (John 10:27). Can we stop hearing? Can we stop following? Man does not lose his free will when he becomes a Christian.

It is possible to deny the Master who bought you and so be destroyed (2 Pet. 2:1). Thus, we must keep ourselves in God’s love (Jude 21), and give diligence to make our calling and election sure (2 Pet. 1:10), lest our reception of divine grace be in vain (2 Cor. 6:1).

If OSAS were true, it would be impossible to be better off never having known the way of righteousness than to know it and turn from it (II Pet 2:20).

Jesus announced that some branches – disciples – would be pruned from Him – as the vine – and burned (Jn. 15:1-6).

Matt 6:14-15 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Does this really mean what it says, or does it mean something else? I think this means exactly what it says. Is God’s forgiveness conditional or unconditional? What if we stop forgiving others? Is it still within my free will to do that or will God override my free will? If this was an impossibility, it makes absolutely no sense to give the admonition. If a Christian can do this, are you implying they will be saved with a multitude of unforgiven sins? This is not about being in fellowship with God, this is about forgiveness of sins!!! Words have meaning. If this doesn’t mean what it says, then we can’t know what it means.

I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

One can not “pre-confess” of future sins, therefore, this is an ongoing action in one’s life. What if we stop confessing ours sins to God? If He keeps on cleaning us anyway, this verse is without meaning. This verse is dealing with the forgiveness of sins.

I Jn 2:3-6 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

This is a way of life. We can be sure that we are “in Him” if we keep his commandments. If we stop keeping his commandments then we are not “in Him” even if we think or say we are.

Above is just a mere sampling of the scripture I could provide. Sure, people will rationalize, perform mental gymnastics and sometimes resort to belittling, to attempt to validate their positions or win an argument. I’m not here to argue.

Read God’s word for what it says. It is plain and simple. You don’t need a degree in Greek to understand the bible. Read it to develop your position and not to defend some preconceived idea.

 

[J. Jump]

What is the result of wandering from the truth? Death! Rationalize all you want, but this is death that results from sin (See also James 1:14-15). This is the death of a soul as clearly pointed out by this passage.

You have clearly pointed out the results, which is the death of your soul. However, you have misapplied the soul to eternal salvation. Eternal salvation deals with the spirit not the soul.

Conditional security proponents fail to realize or understand or ignore, I really don't know what, the texts that tell us eternal salvation is not a process.

I will always go back to Ephesians 2:8-9, because the Greek verb used tells us that eternal savlation is something that can never change. We simply have to believe what the Bible says and conform to it not the other way around.

 

[Darron Steele]

...
Don't follow the myth of OSAS, no matter how pleasing it is to your ears....

I have largely stayed off this thread, but at this point, I think I will ask you some questions.

1) To you, does "OSAS" mean that we get to `indulge' freely in sin?
2) If so, why would it?
3) What might such an assumption say about a person's true desire to please the Lord?

These questions lead into another point I might make. I have a pretty good idea what your answers would be if you answered these questions, but before I make that point I expect to make, I did want to read from you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Darron Steele: //1) To you, does "OSAS" mean that we
get to `indulge' freely in sin?//

No way!

Gal 5:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
For brethren, ye haue beene called vnto liberty,
onely vse not libertie for an occasion to the flesh,
but by loue serue one another.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by carpro
Why would anybody even try?

I'm confortable with and believe in OSAS. I'm sorry you don't. Apparently I have more faith in your salvation than you do.

Pity.

MMAN

II Tim 4:3-4 . For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Don't follow the myth of OSAS, no matter how pleasing it is to your ears.

Gal 5:4, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace”. The inspired apostle states that those Christians who turn to Moses’ law for salvation (in addition to the gospel, i.e., requires circumcision in addition to the gospel) are “severed from Christ.” Two points should be considered,

first, one cannot be severed from that to which he was never joined; hence, we are dealing with apostate children of God.

Second, these rebels stand severed from Christ; if one stands separated from the Lord, he certainly is not in a saved position.

Reflect upon this thought, if being “in grace” denotes salvation (see Romans 5:2; Acts 13:43), why wouldn’t being “away from grace” signify condemnation?

Good points all.

There is NO salvation outside of Christ. Seems like an easy enough concept to get -- but on behalf of OSAS people will reject almost any warning from scripture.

The "danger" in OSAS is that one has to constantly turn a blind eye to the warnings of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob