A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

you ask me, is this passage a little proof?

Throughout in the book of Hebrews, nowhere 'a thousand years' is mentioned.

'Rest' find often in that book, which speaks of eternal life and salvation, which is IN Jesus Christ.

I did read "The Rod" book by Faust, and "Beyond The Rapture!" by Whipple. There are too much guessworks in them, they explained on book of Hebrews. Their interpreting are actually strange to me. I do not agree with them.

Whipple explained on Hebrews 2:3 - 'so great salvation' on page 34:

"Contary to this, the "Great Salvation" was not preached until just two-thousand years ago, and the preacher was the Lord Himself. It speaks of "millennial life", not eternal life."

He have seriously problem with Heb. 3:2. Heb. 3:2 never saying of 'so great salvation' is so called, "millennial life", because it doesn't say 'a thousand years' there.

Millennial exclusion doctrine is a very strange and complex relate with soteriology issue.

But, I do glad that, Faust, Whipple, and others saw passages of conditional with warning in the Bible, urge or encourage Christians to be remain faithful and fear of the Lord because of the judgment day. I say to them, amen. But, they yet hold security salvation belief. That is their big problems conflict with God's Word on passages of conditional.

Because of these passages, which speak of conditional with warnings CANNOT be the evidence of unconditional election or unconditional security salvation.

Also, many millennial exclusionists won't admit of that teaching is actual mixed with purgatory.

Many of us who disagree with millennial exclusion doctrine, we can easily identify their teaching sound like purgatory. Because, they teaching that a Christian who failed to obedience, keep commandment, not serve, will be cast in hell, and stay there till after millennium ended, then go into eternal life with Christ in New Jerusalem.

I can easily consider this is a heresy teaching.

The Bible teaches us, there is NO promise for a person, who once IN hell, shall be bring into heaven to be with the Lord.

Why? Because, person's name is NOT found written in the Book of life when ONCE after a person died, he is already appointed to face the judgement in Hebrews 9:27.

NNE is escape away from hell. Because these who are now in hell are AWAIT for the coming judgment day, THEN, hell shall be CAST INTO the lake of fire is their second death.

That's period.

There is no purgatory in the Bible! Sorry.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Hmm - hell as "purgatory" purging the SAINTS of their sins as they are ON THEIR WAY TO HEAVEN!!

What Bible text says "first hell - THEN HEAVEN"????

Mormons "try that stunt" but I don't believe Catholics do it.

Lacy said
According to your doctrine, what is the reason that God is not allowed to purge his children by chastening them, before they face filial judgement at the JSOC?

#1. Forgiveness comes from the blood of Christ alone. Any discomfort we experience in this life does nothing to forgive sins.

#2. The Bible NEVER says "you survive hell to then go to heaven".

#3. In Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" does NOT provide a solution" whereby the servant who owes the massive debt is able out of his own torment and suffering to make himself "acceptable" to the king. To suggest such a thing is to say that we can be our own savior from sin. At the end of the Matt 18 story the wicked servant gets "no forgivenes". IF There was a path TO heaven THROUGH "no forgiveness" then we would be our own savior.

#4. I have NSAS tradition to "protect" in all of this. I am simply free to believe what the Bible actually says - so no "story telling".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 12:4-12
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

#1. This TRAINING style of DISCIPLINE is for growing in Christ - sanctification "without which no one will see the kingdom of heaven" - it is NOT a "means of forgivness" -- it does nothing to "pay for the debt of sin".

#2. In Heb 9 Paul ARLEADY said "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" -- there is no "ONCE to die and then comes purgatory" in all of scripture.

It is one thing to mature and grow and experience discipline in this life so you persevere in the faith and grow in Christ. It is ANOTHER THING to claim that if you fail in this life THEN you can always make up for it in the next - LEARN to be a persevering Christian AFTER you die.

That is a false view of the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

#1. Forgiveness comes from the blood of Christ alone.

Let's add through faith alone.

#3. In Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" does NOT provide a solution" whereby the servant who owes the massive debt is able out of his own torment and suffering to make himself "acceptable" to the king. To suggest such a thing is to say that we can be our own savior from sin. At the end of the Matt 18 story the wicked servant gets "no forgiveness"

Amen!

#4. I have NSAS tradition to "protect" in all of this. I am simply free to believe what the Bible actually says - so no "story telling".

Amen! :thumbs:

Hey, I am finally agreeing with Bob for a change! :wavey:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan

#1. Forgiveness comes from the blood of Christ alone. Any discomfort we experience in this life does nothing to forgive sins.

If you are talking about an unbeliever being born again, then of course you are correct. If you are talking about our filial relationship with our Father, after salvation, then you couldn't be more wrong. Nearly every page of the NT says otherwise.

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

#2. The Bible NEVER says "you survive hell to then go to heaven".

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Pretty plain.

#3. In Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" does NOT provide a solution" whereby the servant who owes the massive debt is able out of his own torment and suffering to make himself "acceptable" to the king. To suggest such a thing is to say that we can be our own savior from sin. At the end of the Matt 18 story the wicked servant gets "no forgivenes". IF There was a path TO heaven THROUGH "no forgiveness" then we would be our own savior.

Matthew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

No path in your mind but definetely a path in the verse in question. You just can't designete a portion of a verse as "hypothetical" because of your preconceptions. That is assuming the thing to be proven.

#4. I have NSAS tradition to "protect" in all of this. I am simply free to believe what the Bible actually says - so no "story telling".

What you do is make camp on the "lose your salvation" verses and declare all the "eternal security" verses your enemy. Half of your Bible is antagonistic to your doctrine.

The doctrine of Millennial Exclusion is not a "bogus way to save" anything. It is just the Whole Counsel Of God.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Throughout in the book of Hebrews, nowhere 'a thousand years' is mentioned.

And nowhere in the book of Ester, is God mentioned. Is that proof that there is no God?

 

[BobRyan]

Hey, I am finally agreeing with Bob for a change! :wavey:

It is about time you took a turn on the right side of the fence again!:laugh: :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan

#1. Forgiveness comes from the blood of Christ alone. Any discomfort we experience in this life does nothing to forgive sins.

If you are talking about an unbeliever being born again, then of course you are correct.

If you are talking about our filial relationship with our Father, after salvation, then you couldn't be more wrong. Nearly every page of the NT says otherwise.


Quote:
Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

These texts do all speak to forgiveness -- apparently you admit to that.

these texts say NOTHING about this forgiveness being by ANY OTHER MEANS than the blood of Christ alone!

You seem to "imagine" that "our torment" is accomplishing forgiveness in these cases and you use that to support the wild unbiblical doctrine that "torment in hell purges the soul and leads us to heaven".

When in FACT all they show is the 1John 2 fact that the blood of Christ CONTINUES to be adminstered TO the saints THROUGH the High Priestly work of Christ when the saints sin after being born again.

It says nothing about "The saints EARNING THEIR OWN FORGIVENESS" after being converted!!

Your doctrine has no basis in scripture Lacy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hope of Glory

Originally Posted by DeafPosttrib
Throughout in the book of Hebrews, nowhere 'a thousand years' is mentioned.


And nowhere in the book of Ester, is God mentioned. Is that proof that there is no God?

Good point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:BobRyan
#2. The Bible NEVER says "you survive hell to then go to heaven".

Quote:
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Pretty plain.

#1. The Rev 20 reference is to HADES (NASB) not HELL (Matt 10:28)

#2. The Rev 20 reference shows that ONLY those raised in the FIRST resurrection are immune to the SECOND death "Lake of Fire" "OVER THESE the second death has NO Power". It is only the "Blessed and holy" one raised in the FIRST RESURRECTION (Rev 20:5) that escape the lake of fire. "For the DEAD in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4.

You simply "imagine heaven" for those raised after the 1000 years but you only FIND scripture saying that they are thrown into the lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan Quote:
#3. In Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" does NOT provide a solution" whereby the servant who owes the massive debt is able out of his own torment and suffering to make himself "acceptable" to the king. To suggest such a thing is to say that we can be our own savior from sin. At the end of the Matt 18 story the wicked servant gets "no forgivenes". IF There was a path TO heaven THROUGH "no forgiveness" then we would be our own savior.

Quote:
Matthew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

No path in your mind but definetely a path in the verse in question.

You quote NOTHING that shows the servant to be "pleasing to His master" even once his torment has ended. In the same way those that are tormented in the Lake of Fire - and "reduced to ashes" as we find in Matt 10:28 Jude and in the Gospels regarding eternal fire -- are not "PLEASING to the LORD" once they are destroyed.

Further Matt 18 shows that this is TRUE forgiveness revoked not "some filial fake not-real bloodless forgiveness" it is the REAL forgiveness that is the only way to NOT go to hell.

You simply "imagine heaven" into the text that speaks of the FULL DEBT OF SIN being paid by the servant --no matter what the text says!!

Then you take your imagination AS IF we had just read what you imagined in the text!

But it says NOTHING about heaven or "approval" for the wicked servant sent to pay his OWN debt of sin. The emphasis on the text is on FULL PAYMENT -- that is FULL and complete! Not "heaven" and APPROVAL or "a self-bought way to heaven".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

Rev. 20:15 say nothing of purgatory as proof.

Right now, people who reject Christ, and also who disobedience, failed to follow Christ, are already died, their souls are in hell. Hell is an 'appointment' place like jail. The reason is, these names are not written in the book of life, already condemned, and their souls are await till the Judgment Day comes, their bodies shall be resurrection, to face Christ sits on throne. And their names are not find written in the book of Life, shall be cast away into the lake of fire. They are already appointed for their future everlasting destiny of punihsment.

Right now, we are in 'realized millennium' (Rev. 20:1-6) means, Christ already defeated Satan at Calvary, Christ gaven key(power) to the Church according in Matt. 16:18-19, to witness gospel over all nations. Satan cannot stop Church from spreading the gospel over the world. Till church becomes apostasy, God knows when the time comes, He will allow Satan looses out of the midst(2 Thess. 2:6-8), to persecute against Church for a little season. Even, also, saints who already died during between Calvary to now, are in heaven, are reigning with Christ in heaven for a length time, it already been nearly 2000 years. 'A thousand years' shows us the picture it is a length period. Church shall not stay in the heaven(third heaven) forever, it is temporary. When 'realized millennium' expired as the evangelism of the gospel age ends, then Satan shall be loosed out of the midst(means spiritually released from being restraining) will war(persecution) against the Church, also controls world, by force them to worship him as Messiah or God, but for a little season(short time).

Then, Christ shall come with his angels, send fire upon earth, sends Satan cast into the lake of fire.

THEN, all both just and unjust shall be resurrection on the last day of this present age - John 5:28-30; John 6:39,40,44, 54. Unjust's souls shall be out of hell, while their souls shall be reunited with their body at resurrection. Unjust's names are not found written in the book of life, shall be cast away into the lake of fire. EVEN, a unfaithful servant(Christian) who failed to overcome at death, shall be cast away into the lake of fire too!!- Rev. 3:5-"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will NOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." This telling us, IF a person shall overcoming the world in the lifetime by the time, person dies, shall be victory and get eternal life! OR, what IF a person fails to overcoming the world and sins in lifetime, by the time, person dies, then person's name is REMOVED the book of life, cast away into the lake of fire!!! This is very clear speak against unconditional security salvation or OSAS.

Hell is not so called, "purgatory", hell is a place for appointed with them AWAIT for their future final everlasting punishment destiny - lake of fire! Hell WILL BE CAST into the lake of fire. That's period! NOT a single verse find anywhere in the Bible tells us that person shall be removed from hell, then enter into heaven.

You use Rev. 20:15 as proof of millennial exclusion that a saint shall be removed from hell, go into heaven is fallacy. Rev. 20:15 say nothing on purgatory.

Many Christians easily understand Rev. 20:15 telling us, hell shall be cast into the lake of fire, because their names are not find written in the book of life, it is everlasting punishment. Even, 'second death' is an everlasting punihsment!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Bob,

Amen, well saying! :saint:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy,

Rev. 20:15 say nothing of purgatory as proof.

You use Rev. 20:15 as proof of millennial exclusion that a saint shall be removed from hell, go into heaven is fallacy. Rev. 20:15 say nothing on purgatory.

Purgatory is your word not mine. It is your strawman. You kick the strawman over and think you are actually dealing with what I believe.


Rev 20:15 absolutely implies that there will be folks (who face the GWT, after coming up out of Hell) who ARE "found written in the book of life".

There is absolutely no other explanation of the very particular wording of the verse!

I'm still waiting for someone to adequately explain it some other way.

If I said, "Every M&M in the bag, that wasn't yellow, was eaten," no sane person would ever assume that there were no yellow ones in the bag to begin with.

If there were no yellow M&Ms with their names written down in the book . . . we simply would have never mentioned yellow M&Ms in the first place.

If I said to my class, "We're going to take a restroom break, so everyone who is not a boy can go first." it would be ridiculous to assume that there were never any boys in my class.

If there were no boys with their names written in the book . . ., we would have simply said, everyone go to the restroom.

If there were no people in Hell with their names written in the book . . ., we would simply say. "Everyone in Hell was cast into the LOF."

 

[BobRyan]

Purgatory is your word not mine. It is your strawman. You kick the strawman over and think you are actually dealing with what I believe.

How is it that you feel your view of hell-then-heaven is NOT in fact a rehash of the RCC doctrine on purgatory PURGING away the punishment OWED for venial sins so that the saints can go to heaven.

Only the RCC does not go to the wild extreme of claiming that they can co-opt hell for that job.

Rev 20:15 absolutely implies that there will be folks (who face the GWT, after coming up out of Hell) who ARE "found written in the book of life".

There is absolutely no other explanation of the very particular wording of the verse!

I'm still waiting for someone to adequately explain it some other way.

Too bad NOTHING in Rev 20 says "And some were raised after the 1000 years that while the second death DID have POWER over them - yet STILL they did not get cast into the Lake of Fire which IS the second death. RATHER these were saints purged by the fires of hell whose names were none-the-less WRITTEN in the book of life and so they went to heaven even though they had been sent to hell".

Clearly you believe it even WITHOUT the scripture saying it.

If I said, "Every M&M in the bag, that wasn't yellow, was eaten," no sane person would ever assume that there were no yellow ones in the bag to begin with.

If there were no yellow M&Ms with their names written down in the book . . . we simply would have never mentioned yellow M&Ms in the first place.

If I said "FIRST I took out ALL the M&Ms that were not to be eaten - THEN the ones LEFT could all be available to be eaten at lunch time. THEN Lunch time came and we ate the ones that were to be eaten".

I think you might see in my wording what we clearly see in Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

Too bad NOTHING in Rev 20 says "And some were raised after the 1000 years that while the second death DID have POWER over them - yet STILL they did not get cast into the Lake of Fire which IS the second death. RATHER these were saints purged by the fires of hell whose names were none-the-less WRITTEN in the book of life and so they went to heaven even though they had been sent to hell".

Clearly you believe it even WITHOUT the scripture saying it.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

un·til

/ʌnˈtɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-til] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –conjunction 1.up to the time that or when; till: He read until his guests arrived. 2.before (usually used in negative constructions): They did not come until the meeting was half over. –preposition 3.onward to or till (a specified time or occurrence): She worked until 6 p.m. 4.before (usually used in negative constructions): He did not go until night. 5.Scot. and North England. to; unto.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that the saints are taken in the FIRST resurrection and the "REST of the dead" are those who come up from the grave - from "HADES" -- the grave the place of the dead... over whom "the Second Death DOES have power".

But what we do not find is "Though the second death DOES have power over them - they do not get put into the second death RATHER they go to heaven".

That is the missing verse for your POV.

They are judged by works in the context of Romans 3 and are by that context condemned to the second death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

Bob Ryan:

How is it that you feel your view of hell-then-heaven is NOT in fact a rehash of the RCC doctrine on purgatory PURGING away the punishment OWED for venial sins so that the saints can go to heaven.

That is exactly what the kingdom doctrine is all about. The only difference is, the way I understand it, is that the spirit does go to heaven while the soul does it's penance in hell. Split asunder I believe is how they put it.

 

[BobRyan]

Kind of scary that a non-Catholic group would come up with that!

 

[Amy.G]

Kind of scary that a non-Catholic group would come up with that!

Indeed!

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