A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

[Lacy Evans]

Bob Ryan:


That is exactly what the kingdom doctrine is all about. The only difference is, the way I understand it, is that the spirit does go to heaven while the soul does it's penance in hell. Split asunder I believe is how they put it.

I never met, nor read anyone who believes in that "split assunder: thing. (And I have an extensive library of authors who have taught and do teach ME).

Somewhere you misunderstood someone. Unrepentant, grossly disobedient children are chastened in Hell for 1000 years then the chastening ends. Their "souls" are never split up. As a matter of fact, their body is in there too.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Kind of scary that a non-Catholic group would come up with that!

Sticks and stones might get my attention but rhetoric really doesn't move me much.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

I read books of Faust and Whipple. They did discuss on Christians' soul at the judgment seat of Christ. Whipple's teaching on the resurrection and rapture at pretribulation coming relates with unfaithful Christian's soul probably is the strangest ever I read. Whipple explained on 1 Corinthians chapter 15, 1 Thess. 4:14-17 in his book "Shock and Surprise Beyond The Rapture!" in page 43:

Does this not prove that a glorified body likened Jesus' body will be given to all believers at the resurrection? The answer is "yes," but the rapture of the church is not the resurrection. In First Thessalonians 4:14-17, the resurrection of dead bodies into glorified os not mentioned. Only "raised" and "caught up" bodies of the dead and living are mentioned.

He teaches that, when rapture comes, not all Christians shall received their resurrection bodies, but only "raised" and "caught up" bodies of the dead and living are mentioned. He should be know better.

In John 5:28-30 teaching us, when the hour is coming(at the second advent), both just and unjust shall be all resurrection, some shall go into everlasting life, some shall go into everlasting punishment. There is only one event day of the general resurrection for all mankind on the last day of this age(John 6:39,40,44,54).

Whipple's teaching sounds like as partial rapturism to me. Same with Watchman Nee's teachings.

Also, Whipple said in page 45:

Those remaining sons, whose souls did not die to this world in this present age will suffer loss during millennial kingdom age, where their souls will die. Then, after millennium, they(Christians-added mine as what he means) will experince resurrection into glorified spiritual bodies for the eternal ages.

His teaching is a very strange, and consider heresy too. His teaching on degrees of Christians' soul at the rapture is more byond complex than Faust's teaching. His teaching like as theology and even obivously of his own philosophy.

I don't recommend that book for every Christians to read it. That book is actual dangerous.

He also, said:

He can lose his soul(life in the millennium) but not his his saved spirit

in page 65.

We all have three parts within our body - spirit, soul, and body(flesh) like as Christ has. Same idea as three in one. Use apple as example for trinity. Apple have three parts, but three are in one - 1. red coat cover 2. white under red coat 3. seed in the core of apple. There are so many things which show of three parts in one as trinity. Earth do have three parts, yet one planet. Earth's three parts: 1. land 2. rocks under the land 3. Lava in the core of the earth.

We ALL have spirit AND soul together.

I do not agree with Whipple's teaching. He believes that, a unfaithful Christian's soul and spirit shall be separated for a temporary at the judgment seat of Christ. Then, after millennium, unfaithful Christian shall receive God's spirit and go enter eternal life with Christ on new earth.

He explained on Matt. 7:13 of 'destruction', means suffering loss of rewards.

LOT of baptists who hold security salvation belief, believe when a Christian shall suffering loss at the judgment seat of Christ, not lose salvation, but only lose "rewards".

Where did they get the idea comes from?

Myself used believed in security salvation doctrine for long time. In 2002, I was no longer believe in it, I realized Bible mentioned on conditional with warnings with word, "IF's". Matt. 25:30 bothered me the mostly whilst myself was securist before. Finally, I decided left security camp, stick with God's Word, what it actual saying.

Sorry, I am off the track. Let's back to track.

I read Whipple's teaching on wedding relates as Christ's Bride. He said:

...there are two kinds of wedding garments. One for the "bride," and one for the "wedding guests." Originally, it was Israel's honr to be the invited wedding guest to the marriage of the Christ and His bride, but they lost this honour when they rejected the kingdom (Matt. 21:43). On the other hand, the bride of Christ has always(emphasis mine) been a gentile bride (the chosen and faithful portion of the church who are mainly gentile)

- pp. 80

This is the type of dispensationalism teaching. I strong disagree with his teaching on wedding.

God only have ONE bride from Old Testament saints to New Testament saints, all are already reconciled unity into one body of Christ by Calvary.

Whipple said:

It is important to remember that the Jews will not(emphasis mine) have spiritual bodoes, but soulical bodies (bodies of flesh and blood)

- pp. 91

He speaks of Jews during millennial kingdom.

Premillennialism created lot of serious problems with Bible.

The reason is, John N. Darby invented dispensationalism. He was the first person taught there is distinction of Israel and Church in God's program. Early Church believed the true Israel of God is Church. They never claim that they believe in "Replacement Theology". That term was not introduction till at the dawn of the 20th Century.

We need look in Matthew 25:31-46 teaching us very clear, when Christ shall come with angels, angels will gathering all nations, separated them into two classes - sheep and goat. Sheep represents faithful servants, goat represents unfaithful servants. All goat will be cast into everlasting fire. There is no promise for a unfaithful person shall be finally released out of fire beyond the judgment day. Notice Matt. 25:41 and 46 say: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his (fallen) angels...And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT(not temporary, so called purgatory): but the righteous into life eternal."

Next post, I want to telling you something what Joey Faust actual teaching about the judgment seat of Christ, in his book- "The Rod".

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Before I discuss on Faust's teaching, I would like to discuss on Rev. 20:5 as what Lacy said on this.

Notice word, 'the rest of the dead' which represents unjust people, they are not lived again, because they do not have "the first resurrection", which speaks of salvation in Jesus Christ.

'A thousand years' of Revelation 20:1-7 is a symbolic and figuratively meaning. It is not exactly literal number. It represents as length time or period.

Rev. 20:4 telling us, people who refuse receive the mark nor, worshipping the beast, got beheaded, already overcometh the world, are now reigning with Christ in heaven for almost 2000 years since after calvary to now. This speaking of Christians throughout centuries of church history, that, they which refused compromising with the world system, do not walk in the dark. Refused compromise with Roman Catholic's system. Many were killed by persecutions- Spanish Inquistion(suggest read "Foxes' Martyrers" book), even today, many Christians over the world are continue persecuting, for refuse compromise with false religions like, Muslims or Islamic. These dead saints' souls are now in the heaven, are reigning with Christ. And Christ became the firstfruit of the resurrection(1 Cor. 15:23) then afterward, Christians now are part of the firstfruit, their souls are now in the heaven with the Lord. They are now reigning with Christ, because they already overcame the world in thier lifetime.

While in this period, the rest of the dead shall not be lived again till a thousand years expired. Which speaks of unjust people who did compromised with world, walk in the dark, are already died, NOW their souls are in hell, because they do not have the "first resurrection"(salvation), their bodies are not yet risen or lived again till this period (gospel of the kingdom or present age) is finished. THEN, all unjust's souls shall be reunity with their bodies at the resurrection, but, hell shall be cast away into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Notice Rev. 20:6 says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with a thousand years." This telling us, blessed that a faithful servant who already overcame the world at death(phsyical), now have the first resurrection with Christ(eternal life) in the heaven, is reigning with Christ in heaven. So, the "second death" have no power over this faithful servant after death, because faithful servant's soul is already now in the heaven with the Lord.

Notice Rev. 2:11 says, "He that hath an ear(eye-deaf person), let him hear(know-deaf person understands) what the Spirit saith unto the churches, He that overcometh SHALL NOT be hurt of the second death." It tells us, we must be aware and take heed with warning from God's Word, that a person must be overcoming the world, or, if failed to overcoming the world, shall suffering the second death, which is IN the lake of fire - everlasting punihsment, not temporary, so called, "purgatory". 'Second death' is described in Rev. 20:14-15.

Please read Rev. 20:14-15 carefully:

"And death and hell were CAST INTO the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was CAST into the lake of fire."

Nowhere in Bible telling us, "second death" is a temporary, so called, 'purgatory'. Roman Catholic invented its' doctrine of purgatory.

Interesting, I watched rent movie, "Martin Luther". In his youth life, he saw people's knee walking or climbing on the stairs toward the building of the church. At the same time, he saw people in the line to pay their debts for their souls get out of purgatory, even, they paid their debts FOR their family & relationship who are already in purgatory, so they hoped that their love ones are on the way to heaven.

Catholic's system was wicked and filthy with greedy.

I read James Newman's post argue on Matthew chapter 18:34-35 about debt of sins.

This passage have do nothing with purgatory. it speaks of forgivness while in our lifetime, not beyond after our death.

Baptist's view on Christ's atonement. They believe Christ's blood already paid all our sins at once, means our debt of sins are paid. That is wrong idea.

Book of Hebrews explains about sacrifice, offering, priest, and blood. It tells us, during Old Testment period, priests had to make offering by slain animals with blood to forgive people's sins often and often. But, it tells us, Christ sacrificed on the cross for us all at ONCE. Means, his blood covers our sins of past, present, and future(according depend upon our conditional confession of sins). Christ didn't "pay" our sins. He forgived our sins as what we done in his love.

Now, our responsiblty is to react back to Christ for ask of forgiveness daily (1 John 1:19).

Matt. 18:34-35 tells us, when we are remain sinning right now, God is NOT going to forgive us, unless TILL we confess our sins to God, THEN he will forgive us. Obivously, it is conditional.

So, Rev. 20:14-15 give no hint of 'proof' of purgatory or second chance for a person, who is ALREADY in the hell, shall be go into eternal life with Christ.

Let me explain on "first resurrection", and "second death".

"First Resurrection" = eternal life salvation, those who already overcome the world in their lifetime at their death(Rev. 2:10).

"Second Death" = eternal punishment separated from God, those who already failed to overcome the world in their lifetime at death are already in hell, are appointed for THEIR second death, shall be cast into the lake of fire.

Understand clear?

I not yet discuss on Faust's teaching in his book on judgment seat of Christ. I will make another post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Now I am discuss on Faust's teaching in his book. He explained about judgment seat of Christ. He said:

the fiery of the Lord's mouth[he interpets from Hebrews 12:28-29 added mine as what he quoted] will judge Christians that have lived unfaithfully and have not repented in this life. This is the "second death" that burns before His throne (before which every believer must one day appear). It is there that these believers will be temporarily slain[emphasis mine]. It is called the second death because it occurs after the raising of the body from the effects of the first detah (Revelation 20:5)

- pp. 148.

His teaching is a seriously error. He believes that all Christians shall be rapture, also, dead(physical) Christians shall be raised to face the judgment seat of Christ, THEN, Christ's mouth shall blow out with fire to kill unfaithful servant, sending unfaitfhul servant down to hell for 1000 years. He teaching that, unfaithful will have to die TWICE, then life again TWICE.

OH PLEASE.....Oh my grief! :BangHead:

Faust said:

Christians cannot lose eternal salvation. They will therefore only be hurt temporarily by the Lord's fiery breath. They will then be banished to the underworld throughout the millennium. After this, they will be raised to everlasting life (i.e. "saved") at the Great White Throne on the Last Day:

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not hurt(emphasis by himself) of the second death.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer losee: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire(Faust's emphasis)

- pp. 153

Faust, millennial exclusionists and securists really have lot of problems with scriptures, which speak of conditional with warnings. These are clearly shown of conditional, cannot be support of unconditional security salvation or OSAS doctrine.

Again, nowhere in Bible telling us, 'the second death' is a temporarly or so called, purgatory. Bible teaches us very clear, second death equals with lake of fire is an everlasting punishment.

Also, earlier in his book, he said:

Carnal Christians will return to death and will have to wait until after the millennium to live again in eternity.

- pp. 133.

His teaching is unbiblical.

He continued:

Every unfaithful Christian will mourn the loss of the millennial kingdom and will have to wait(emphasis mine) 1000 years to be reunited with the faithful saints in bliss and glory.

- pp. 133.

His teaching is hersey and unbiblical.

There is no hint find anywhere in the Bible telling us that, a person who shall be cast into hell at the judgment seat of Christ will have to WAIT till after 1000 years then reunion with Christians, to enter into eternal life with Christ.

I notice Joey Faust seems more zeal and aggressive trying to spread this doctrine to Baptist churches across America to accept this doctrine samiliar like as what John N. Darby has done to churches in America on pretribulationism.

I am glad for Joey Faust fears of the Lord, warning to his people to obey the Lord, and to follow Christ. That's wonderful for him. But, his teaching is in a seriously errors.

I realized that security salvation doctrine is very dangerous to the churches today. I used to believed in security salvation whilst myself was securist before. Security salvation gives Christians and people a false hope.

Matthew 7:15 warns us, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they ravening wolves." It contexts with Matt. 7:13-14 which is a serious matter with salvation issue.

There are too many false teachers, pastors out there in America today. Too many religions are teaching false, many people are misleading on the way to their everlasting punishment. EVEN, elect could be deceived from false prophets warns in Matt. 24:24- "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF it were[italics added in KJV, because these words are not find in Greek translation] POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect." Jesus warns us, we must watch out for false doctrines from false pastors, false religions. Today, too many Christians are already brainwashed for believing in new teachings such as "pretribulationism", Jehovah Witness, Mormons, etc.

I do consider security salvation doctrine is a false teaching. It is seriously harm to Christians. Understand, I do NOT consider that, any baptists or Christians, who believe in security salvation doctrine will go to hell for sure. NO. I believe some Christians who believe in security salvation doctrine, will go to heaven, NOT because of their beliefs, because of their FAITHFUL, and their truly fruit life. Even, many Christians who disagree with security salvation doctrine will NOT go to heaven. Not because of their beliefs, because of their unfaithful, and not have their fruits.

See?

I better break this into parts of posts discuss on Faust's teaching to be continued in the next post. Because this post is seem long already.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

To be continued

Faust inteprets:

Galatians 5:21 "Envyings, murders, drunkeness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God(Faust's emphasis)

The above Scriptures reveal that the future millennial kingdom is a reward for faithfulness....the millennial reign is a double portion.

- pp. 4.

Millennial reign is a double portion???

Where does he gets it come from?

He inteprets, 'kingdom' means millennium.

Nowhere in the Bible telling us that the kingdom, itself is millennium, neither, it saying it shall be last for only 1000 years either.

Kingdom means good news of salvation for everyone. Kingdom is not come with observation, it is from above, which is spiritual. Also, it is an everlasting according Daniel 7:14, and 27. Everlasting simply mean forever or eternal, no end or temporary.

He also said:

Proof That the Kingdom Can Be Missed

There are many passages in the Bible that plainly teach that disobedient Christians are in danger of missing the millennial kingdom:

Matthew 7:13 Enter(Faust's emphasis) ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it(Faust's emphasis).

Christ is here addressing His disciples who already believe upon Him (John 3:16). The strait gate is entrance into the millennium.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.(Faust's emphasis)

Believers who walk in disobedience are in danger of missing the kingdom.

He misinterpreting scriptures of Matt. 7:13-14, 21.

Matthew 7:13-14 was given to every individuals of the world, there are two roads, which they make their choice to go - everlasting life, or everlasting punishment = heaven or hell. Even, it apply to us as Christians well. 'Destruction' of verse 13 is not temporarily or purgatory, it is future final everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.

Also, Christ doesn't saying strait gate is leading toward millennial kingdom. There is not a single hint find anywhere in Bible telling us that, the strait gate leads toward millennial kingdom.

'Life' of Matthew 7:14 is clear speak of eternal life. See in Matt. 25:46b; John 5:29.

Also, Matthew 7:21 speaks of in the judgment day, many religions shall saying to Christ that,they did wonderful works for the Lord, they are not work for "millennial kingdom", they are work for eternal life in heaven - salvation.

In page 215, he discusses on Rev. 3:5, he said:

Rebellious Christians (that do not repent in time) will be blotted out of the book of life. They will expeirnce a temporary "second death" at the judgment seat where their souls will be slain. They will then be banished to the underworld("outer darkness" or hell). Neverthless, they will be restored after the millennium.

He misinterpets what Rev. 3:5 actual saying.

Rev. 3:5 warns us, if anyone who fail to overcome in lifetime by the time they die, their names shall be removed from the book of life, shall be suffering the second death, which is in the lake of fire.

Rev. 3:5 speaks so loudly against OSAS, it is conditional salvation.

Matt. 10:22; 24:13 teaching us that, we ought to be endure all the way throughout our lifetime till we die or Lord comes, then shall be saved. Clear, it is conditional salvation.

There are too many errors in his book. I better stop.

We already know that his teaching is unbiblical.

There is biggest problem within baptist churches in America today. Their teaching on salvation doctrine is a seriously error. This teaching by use evangelism do much damage to lost people, not only on Christians(baptists), even, to lost souls because of 'easy believism', and believing in OSAS, giving them easy life for worry nothing about their salvation, long as they stay enjoy their life in sins while they still think they are already saved are on the way to heaven. Unconditional security salvation doctrine deceived millions of souls are on the way to hell. Sad. :tear:

James, Lacy, Faust, and others need to be awake up that scriptures teaching us very clear, all of these are conditional salvation with warnings. Need to edify people to be wake up and repent of sins, and to follow Christ.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[mman]

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I always love it when works-based salvation folks quote Scripture, because it ALWAYS shows them their error...This simply does not "harmonize," as mman would say, with Eph. 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 (there are more, but if there be just ONE contradiction that is enough).

I do not believe in a works based salvation. I believe in a faith based salvation. That does not mean obedience is optional. Obedience is absolutely required.

You cannot show me where I am wrong and I can prove it though scriptures.

Have you even read the rest of the account in Acts 16? I will show you the error of your logic. It is up to you to accept it or reject the truth on this subject.

Go back to Acts 16:9-10, "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." And when Paul had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them."

This was the first time the Gospel had been brought to Macedonia. The Philipian Jailor knew nothing of Jesus or what to believe. All he knew is that he was guarding a couple of prisioners, there was a great earthquake, the doors were opened and the bonds unfastened. He was about to take his life when Paul stopped him. He was terrified and fell down before Paul and Silas and asked what he needed to do to be saved. He was told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Believe what? He didn't know what to believe and I can prove it. They had to speak the word of the Lord to him.

What did speaking the "word of the Lord" include? Obviously it included instructions to be baptized. He showed his repentance in the washing of the stripes and he and his family were baptized at once.

Thankfully, he didn't go to you because you would have stopped in verse 31, with him not knowing what to believe. You would not have instructed him to be baptized.

But the inspired Apostle Paul gave him the proper teaching. When he spoke the word of the Lord to him, he included the instuctions for water baptism and the importance of it is clearly seen in that he obeyed those instructions in the middle of the night.

Go to Eph 2. Before you get to verses 8 and 9 notice verses 4-6: 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

When were we dead, made alive (by grace we have been saved) and raised up with Christ?

You can guess all you want, but Paul plainly stated, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." - Rom 6:3-6

Eph 2 and Rom 6 go hand in hand. If you understand Rom 6, then when you read Eph 2 it is in perfect harmony.

Jesus said in words so plain that to misunderstand it you have to want to misunderstand it, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16

That is in perfect harmony with Eph 2 and Rom 6 and Acts 16.

Back to your "proof" text in Acts 16. As Paul Harvey says, "And now, the rest of the story" verses 32-34, "And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

Why did he rejoice? He believed in God. What had happened so that statement could be made? He heard the word of the Lord, he was baptized at once. After that he could rejoice in that he believed in God.

The bible is not hard to understand. It does not contradict itself. Your "supposed" contradiction leave you with the contradiction.

Preaching the word of the Lord includes instructions to be baptized, just as Jesus said in Mark 16:16. If you preach another gospel, then you are to be accursed according to Gal 1.

When you go to the story of the Eunuch, preaching Jesus included instructions to be baptized in water (Acts 8:35-36). I tell the same story now that they did then.

Your good news about Jesus stops short of the whole message.

"'You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.'

 

[J. Jump]

I do not believe in a works based salvation.

That's funny, because two sentences later you say you do. Here's the quote.

I believe in a faith based salvation. That does not mean obedience is optional. Obedience is absolutely required.

That means a person can believe all they want to and if they don't obey they are not saved. That's works-based salvation no matter how you want to define it.

You cannot show me where I am wrong

Actually I can and have. But just for kicks and giggles let me do it again.

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31. That's just for starters.

Thankfully, he didn't go to you because you would have stopped in verse 31, with him not knowing what to believe. You would not have instructed him to be baptized.

I guess Paul was just pressed for time and couldn't include two or three more words. Hmmmm . . . silly Paul. He said one thing but he really meant another.

So believing can be an all inclusive word to mean a lot of different things. WOW.

Go to Eph 2. Before you get to verses 8 and 9 notice verses 4-6: 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

When were we dead, made alive (by grace we have been saved) and raised up with Christ?

You can guess all you want, but Paul plainly stated, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Again I guess Paul just had a slip of the tongue when he said by grace through faith and left out all those other parts. Hmmmm . . . Guess he didn't have time enough to say what he really meant here either. Don't you think he could have just as easily said, faith and baptism and confession and repentance and whatever else you want to tag on there.

Wonder why he chose not to add those things. Hmmm . . .

That is in perfect harmony with Eph 2 and Rom 6 and Acts 16.

Not only is it NOT in harmony, but it makes shambles of the "finished," "perfect" works of Christ. If "you" do ANYTHING to add to your salvation then you are saying Christ's works aren't good enough. Sorry, but they are despite what you believe.

The bible is not hard to understand.

Well parts of it are not at least. If the Bible was not hard to understand in all places then all people would understand it. But eternal salvation is a simple message when people don't polute it by adding their "own" stuff into the mix.

When you go to the story of the Eunuch, preaching Jesus included instructions to be baptized in water (Acts 8:35-36). I tell the same story now that they did then.

Once again you mix messages. The story of the Eunuch is not talking about eternal salvation. But there's no need in going into an explanation on that.

Since you can't take the plain meaing of believe and you will be saved and by grace you have been saved there is no need in diving into something more complicated than that.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Some texts, have "they spoke the word of God to them", instead of "Lord".

But, what is the "word of the Lord"?

What is the "word of God"?

 

[BobRyan]

Unrepentant, grossly disobedient children are chastened in Hell for 1000 years

You keep saying "Chastened in hell" like hyou read it in scripture instead of just making it up.

Am I missing something?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I have a good thought.

Can you find a single verse in the Bible telling us that, a person is being to be disciplining as chastening WHILE in hell same time? If you know where verse is, please prove it to us. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DQuixote]

Wow. This is really a sad thread. God saves us but can't sustain us. We have to do that ourselves. So very, very unscriptural and sad. :tear:

Obviously the REAL answer is to fully embrace the Bible doctrine on Perseverance AS IT IS STATED in scripture.

......or to correctly interpret scripture. Obviously, there are those who prefer fleshly explanations to spiritual ones. That's why we have denominations. I've said it before and I will say it again: It is impossible to disagree on the interpretation of scripture when both are operating in the spirit, the scriptural interpretation provided by the Holy Spirit. Impossible! Read that again! How can we profess to understand scripture when there is so much critical, biting, harsh disagreement? Spiritual understanding makes it impossible to disagree! Why are we so intent on throwing rocks at the Holy Spirit? Someone turn the light on, please! It's difficult to see your target in the dark!

Forgive them, Father. They know not what they do. raying:

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 6:14 condemns the practice of church leaders crying "peace and safety" within the church on the VERY points where God sends "warnings".

What is the argument that they use to try and get people to turn away from the warnings of the Bible?

And what are some good examples of those warnings?

hmmm.... let me see....

Here is a link to Bible texts "to be ignored" when preaching "peace and safety" in response to the warning messages of God

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1041638#post1041638


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.



Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able tograft them in again.


However one "bogus" solution for this debunking of OSAS is to "re-invent hell as purgatory" - hence the OP

 

[DQuixote]

Bob....... Jeremiah 6:14 is OT.

You've sent nearly 20,000 technicolor posts (must have a lot of spare time on your hands) and you haven't swayed one single person with your arguments, or with those of Ellen White. Does that tell you something? Anything?

 

[BobRyan]

While it may be that SOME on this board are not aware of WHERE the book of Jeremiah can be found -- it is comforting to know that DQ is one that knows where it is.

The "peace and safety" problem identified CLEARLY in God's WORD simply can not be ignored NOT even by those who DOWNSIZE the Word of God from 66 books to 27 -- or should I say 22??

Read 1Thess 5:1-11 to see that the warning AGAINSt those who cry "Peace and Safety" CONTINUES in the NT.

The constant yet hollow drum beat "pay no attention to scripture if you find it in the OT" simply crumbles in the light of the Word of God friends.

I applaud people Like Lacy who at least admit to SEEING the problem and trying to solve it (though using a bogus solution of "hell as purgatory" just doesn't hold water). However at least they are honest enough to admit to seeing the problem and trying to find a solution.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Hope of Glory]

I find it quite interesting every time that I get a chance to catch up on these threads that BobRyan sees that these warnings are given to saved individuals, but thinks the penalty is getting kicked out of the family.

Others, who correctly see the truth of OSAS, sadly fail to see the warnings that are given to saved people, simply because there are penalities involved.

The two are not mutually exclusive: A person who is born into the family cannot be unborn. They are in the family forever. Period.

However, saved people are given warnings, and those warnings include penalties for failure. But, those penalties do not include the loss of spiritual salvation.

 

[mman]

That's funny, because two sentences later you say you do. Here's the quote.

That means a person can believe all they want to and if they don't obey they are not saved. That's works-based salvation no matter how you want to define it.


Actually I can and have. But just for kicks and giggles let me do it again.

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31. That's just for starters.


I guess Paul was just pressed for time and couldn't include two or three more words. Hmmmm . . . silly Paul. He said one thing but he really meant another.

So believing can be an all inclusive word to mean a lot of different things. WOW.


Again I guess Paul just had a slip of the tongue when he said by grace through faith and left out all those other parts. Hmmmm . . . Guess he didn't have time enough to say what he really meant here either. Don't you think he could have just as easily said, faith and baptism and confession and repentance and whatever else you want to tag on there.

Wonder why he chose not to add those things. Hmmm . . .


Not only is it NOT in harmony, but it makes shambles of the "finished," "perfect" works of Christ. If "you" do ANYTHING to add to your salvation then you are saying Christ's works aren't good enough. Sorry, but they are despite what you believe.


Well parts of it are not at least. If the Bible was not hard to understand in all places then all people would understand it. But eternal salvation is a simple message when people don't polute it by adding their "own" stuff into the mix.


Once again you mix messages. The story of the Eunuch is not talking about eternal salvation. But there's no need in going into an explanation on that.

Since you can't take the plain meaing of believe and you will be saved and by grace you have been saved there is no need in diving into something more complicated than that.

Is that really your rationale??? Please tell me there is more.

You did not explain away my position. Just because you don't understand my position, don't tell me what I believe and what I don't.

I absolutely believe in a faith based salvation. I also believe that obedience is required. You see that as mutually exclusive and the bible does not. The Hebrew writer plainly tells us: By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days - Heb 11:30. How did the walls fall down? By the faith of people who encircled them for 7 days. Was obedience required? Absolutely, they fell after the people obeyed the instructions. Contradiction? Not at all.

Gal 3:26-27 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

What did you say, Paul? That "in Christ Jesus", we are sons of God though faith. How did we get "in Christ" so we could be sons of God, though faith? We we have been baptized INTO Christ. Contradiction? Not at all. Surely you are not suggesting that one can have eternal life without having "put on Christ", are you?

You can search the scripture from cover to cover and you will only find 2 passages that tell us how to get INTO Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:26-27). Do you have faith in what God said? Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16

Do you have faith in Jesus' statement? Did He contradict Paul? Not at all.

Even the casual bible reader can understand that Paul was not telling lost sinners the plan of salvation in Ephesian. This was written to Christians.

Just prior to Eph 2:8-9, he talked about death, resurrection, and a new life. Did Paul talk about that in other places? Yes he did. In Rom 6 and that is in connection with baptism.

When does the "Newness" of life begin? If you answer according to the scriptures, and read all that God has said on the matter, it is clear that the new life begins when we are raised from the watery grave of baptism. This is a form (Rom 6:3-6, 17) of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. That is the gospel (I Cor 15:1-4). This is how we obey the gospel. It is no concoincidence that blood and water flowed from Jesus side at his death (Jn 19:34).

Study this with an open mind. Remove your preconceived ideas and read God's word for what it says. If you seek truth, you will find truth. If you think you already have the truth, you will never learn anything new.

When I repeat what Jesus said, you think I am contradicting Paul. Let me assure you that Paul did not contradict Jesus and Jesus did not contradict Paul. Both are in harmony.

Did Jesus really mean "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."? - Mark 16:16

 

[J. Jump]

I absolutely believe in a faith based salvation. I also believe that obedience is required.

Those are not two harmonious sentences according to Scripture. So again you can say you believe in a faith based salvation until you are blue in the face, but your very next sentence negates that and shows that you really believe in faith plus works, which directly violates Scripture.

Everlasting life is a gift that is received not earned. When "your works" enter the picture it is no longer grace but wages. It goes from unmerited to merited. Again you can not believe that all you want to, but it just doesn't change the matter.

What did you say, Paul? That "in Christ Jesus", we are sons of God though faith. How did we get "in Christ" so we could be sons of God, though faith?

Sonship is not talking about everlasting life. Sonship is talking about the coming kingdom.

See what you do is mix messages. Most of Christendom does that as well, so you are in the majority, but I wouldn't say good company .

That's where you are coming up with your mistakes with baptism and conditional security.

You know I've always found it curious that you all insist that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved. And then you also insist that a person can lose his/her eternal salvation, but in order for that person to be saved the second or third or fourth or fifth, etc., that person doesn't have to be baptized again.

That fact alone should be the biggest red flag to fly up.

So the very first time the person is dead in trespasses and sin they have to be baptized, but eventhough they are found in the same original condition the second time they don't. To me that's just flat out laughable.

Even the casual bible reader can understand that Paul was not telling lost sinners the plan of salvation in Ephesian. This was written to Christians.

That's why Paul discusses their eternal salvation in the past! See it was already done and complete. Just another crack in your doctrine. You say eternal salvation is a process that lasts a lifetime, but Paul said their salvation was already complete. I think I'll go with Paul.

He uses the perfect tense which means it is completed in the past with the results carrying out into the future. And this event that has taken place never has to be repeated again.

Study this with an open mind. Remove your preconceived ideas and read God's word for what it says. If you seek truth, you will find truth. If you think you already have the truth, you will never learn anything new.

So I guess you are never going to learn anything new, huh, seeings that you already have the truth and are unwilling yourself to search the Scriptures with an open mind.

Let me assure you that Paul did not contradict Jesus and Jesus did not contradict Paul. Both are in harmony.

That is absolutely a correct statement in reality. However your doctrine is not a doctrine of reality and in your doctrine the words of Christ and the words of Paul are pitted against each other. When you try to cram them into the same context it is IMPOSSIBLE to harmonize their words.

One says NO WORKS and the other says there are some works invovled. There's NO harmony there, despite what you say.

Did Jesus really mean "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."? - Mark 16:16

Absolutely He did, but the problem is He didn't give it in the context that you wanted Him to give it in. Context is king.

 

[mman]

That's where you are coming up with your mistakes with baptism and conditional security.

You know I've always found it curious that you all insist that a person has to be baptized in order to be saved. And then you also insist that a person can lose his/her eternal salvation, but in order for that person to be saved the second or third or fourth or fifth, etc., that person doesn't have to be baptized again.

That fact alone should be the biggest red flag to fly up.

So the very first time the person is dead in trespasses and sin they have to be baptized, but eventhough they are found in the same original condition the second time they don't. To me that's just flat out laughable.

I guess you would even venture to say it is foolishness, right?

Let's see what scripture has to say.

Acts 8:4-24

Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ. And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip when they heard him and saw the signs that he did. For unclean spirits came out of many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. So there was much joy in that city.

But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the power of God that is called Great." And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, "Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity." And Simon answered, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."

Philip preached Christ to them and when they believed his message they were baptized. Simon also believed and was baptized. Anyone wanting to argue that point needs to take it up with God.

Simon then found himself in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity and bad things awaiting him.

What was he told? To be baptized again? No, to repent and pray.

Do you find Peter's instruction to him laughable also?????

Futhermore, You are the one who cannot harmonize Paul and Jesus. My explaination shows they were in perfect and complete harmony. I used scripture upon scripture.

Here is the summary of your rationale, "No it doesn't".

The context of Mark 16 is instructions for the apostles need to teach all men everywhere.

It is so simple a third grader can understand it. It is in complete harmony with the events in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16, Rom 6, and Eph 2.

Also you want to argue about faith and works. Read again Gal 3:26-27.

It states that in Christ, we are children of God, by faith, because we have been baptized INTO Christ.

These plain passages don't go away just because you don't believe them.

So you say you believe Jesus when he said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." but yet you don't think that baptism is necessary to be saved???

When Christ is preached in the New Testament, instruction is given for water baptism. Those who believe submit to baptism immediately, even if it is the middle of the night. This makes sense if Jesus really meant, "Whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved". Baptism (water) is "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). Jesus blood was "for the remission of sins" (Matt 26:28). At Jesus death, blood and water flowed (Jn 19:34). We are baptized into his death (Rom 6:3-4) where the blood flowed.

Laugh all you want. Consider it foolishness. I Cor1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."