You are saying Romans was not inspired?
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A Call to Biblical Truth
- Thread starter Protestant
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Ok, so again, who decides N.T. Wright's views are wrong and yours or MacArthur's are correct?
Who is the arbitrator?
I have no idea how you conclude that.
I believe the epistle to the Romans is inspired.
Scripture
Again, who gets to decide if Wright is wrong and MacArthur is correct?
Keith Mathison? Phil Johnson?
But that none of us really understood Romans and Galatians until NT Wright and the NPP?
Ok, well Scripture says you are not justified by faith alone. (James 2:24)
So that's it? It's settled? N.T. Wright is correct?
Apostle paul
That would be the Catholic position on justification, but not either reformed or Baptist one!
All Wright did was build on E.P. Sanders' work.
Ok, that makes it easier. Paul never says you are saved by faith alone. In fact, he tells the Romans "we are saved by hope." (8:24)
It's the New Testament's position. You said we look to the Scriptures to determine who is right. Well there it is in plain sight, explicitly stated in the Scriptures.
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)
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Protestant
Well-Known Member
Have you not read your Douay-Rheims Bible?
Our justification must be by faith alone in the righteousness of Christ because our personal righteousness is but filthy rags before our holy God.
And we are all become as one unclean, and all our justices as the rag of a menstruous woman. " "Our justices": That is, the works by which we pretended to make ourselves just. This is spoken particularly of the sacrifices, sacraments, and ceremonies of the Jews, after the death of Christ, and the promulgation of the new law."
Also, As it is written: There is not any man just.
Also, Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.
The saving faith which justifies is not alone, i.e. not dead, but is a living faith going about the business of fulfilling the good works in Christ Jesus for which we Christians were created:
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.
Also, For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Servant writes, "Rome teaches another Gospel, one of sacramentalism, but know Catholics can and still do get saved, as My senior pastor and many members of the church were former Catholics!"
My position has not wavered. ALL born-again Catholics are EX-Catholics. This is exactly what Servant states by declaring his pastor was a former Catholic. I counsel Servant to keep silent, stop hijacking this thread, and stop pretending to be the 'brilliant' apologist he is not.
My position has not wavered. ALL born-again Catholics are EX-Catholics. This is exactly what Servant states by declaring his pastor was a former Catholic. I counsel Servant to keep silent, stop hijacking this thread, and stop pretending to be the 'brilliant' apologist he is not.
Why did you truncate the commentary on the passage? Let's find out why and pick up where you cut it off...
"...The justice which is under the law is stated uncleanness, when compared with evangelical purity. Phil. iii. 8. --- 'If any one after the gospel...would observe the ceremonies of the law, let him hear the people confessing that all that justice is compared to a most filthy rag.' S. Jer. --- The good works which are done by grace, and not by man alone, cannot be said to be of this description. They constitute the internal glory of man, and God will one day crown these his gifts. Of ourselves indeed we can do nothing, and the works of the Mosaic law will not avail, as S. Paul inculcates; but those works, point out the saint, which are preformed by charity with faith in Christ. This justice is not imputed only, but real; and shews where true faith exists, according to S. James. Thus the apostles explain each other. H. --- Woman. Sept. 'of one sitting down;' like Rachel. Gen. xxxi. 35. Sym. 'lying-in.' Aq. 'of proofs.' Grot. "like a plaster on a sore, which is thrown away."' Such were Alcimus, &c. C. --- To practise (H.) the Jewish rites would now be sinful.'
Ooops! Justice is not imputed. Pauline justification refutes faith alone. The Jewish understanding of justification, like the Christian one, is about relationship with God. The concept of forensic justification is foreign to both Judaism and Christianity. It is a "theological novum" as Alister McGrath admitted. That there exists both an old law and a new one of Christ's (love), demonstrates that God has always required something of man.
If you believe in justification by faith alone (which Scripture explicitly condemns), then you must therefore believe a dead faith - that is faith alone apart from any works - is a salvific faith.
"And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Keeping commandments???? But, but, but...what about faith ALONE???
You came in here with a treatise against Catholicism and ended up accidentally advocating their position!
P.S. Stick with the King James Verson!
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Protestant
Well-Known Member
I would expect such an incoherent response from a man who worships the same god as do the Muslims.
I quote from the official Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Paragraph 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
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Protestant
Well-Known Member
Moneta’s Summa Against the Cathars (circa 1241-1244)
[Continued] Moneta was a 13th century Dominican who actively interrogated the ‘heretical’ Cathars. He kept extensive notes which resulted in his Summa, the sum and substance of beliefs held by the Cathars. The following quotes are taken from Wakefield & Evans, Heresies of the High Middle Ages, pp. 326-329.
Let the reader discern for himself which of the two is the heretic: the Cathars/Albigenses or the Roman Catholic Church.
“Also, the heretics say that the Church of Christ first gave instructions before it would baptize anyone, as is found in Matthew 28;19. The Roman Church baptizes before it teaches, as is obvious in the case of infants. Furthermore, Christ and His disciples are never known to have baptized anyone who lacked faith and the ability to reason. But the Roman Church does….
“Also, the heretic says, ‘The Church of God did not kill or swear [oaths]. The Roman Church does so…..
“Also, the heretic says that the children of the Roman Church rob and steal, contrary to God’s command….
“Also, they object that many there are in the Roman Church who are in want, half dead from hunger, thirst and cold, on whom the wealthy members of the Roman Church have no pity, but allow them to weep, to be afflicted by these sufferings. [N.B. Consider the construction of Notre Dame Cathedral while the vast majority of the population lived in poverty.]
“Also, the heretic objects that the Roman Church has multiplied and spread throughout the world, but the Church of God, on the contrary, is few in number: Matthew 7:14.
“Also, the heretic objects, saying: ‘The Church of Christ is called a heresy by the priests and leaders, as appears in Acts 24:14 [therefore, we, too, are called a heresy].’
“Also, the heretic objects, saying, ‘Orders such as Augustinian and Benedictine orders were not present in the Church of Christ. They exist in the Roman Church…..
“They also say that no one may be saved, but in Christ’s teaching, which the Apostles transmitted……. [N.B. Sola Scriptura].
“In execration of the Roman Church the heretic cites the text of Apocalypse 17:3; and, to sum it up briefly, the Cathars, and the Leonists [Waldenses] as well, believe that all or almost all of what is found in the Apocalypse, Chapters 17 - 18, unto chapter 19 verse 3 was recorded against the Roman Church. For they interpret ‘the beast’ and ‘the woman’ as references to the Roman Church. The beast, we read, was scarlet. These words are applicable to the lord Pope, who is the head of the Roman Church. Likewise, we find in verse 4 that the woman was clothed with scarlet and purple and gilt with gold and precious stones and pearls having a golden cup in her hand. This symbol they attach to the Roman Church. The woman drunk with the blood of the saints (verse 6) is referred to in the same connection. This symbol they attach to the Roman Church because it orders their death, for they believe they [the Cathars] are saints. At the end of chapter 17, verse 18 one reads, “And the woman which thou sawest is the great city which has kingdom over the kings of the earth’ [which was Rome at the time of the Apostle’s writings, proving the Roman Church to be the Great Whore]. They also seek to prove their point [that the woman, the Church of Rome, is Mystery Babylon] from the fact that the woman is called Babylon at the end of chapter 16, verse 19, and in Apocalypse 18:2, says, ‘Babylon the great, is fallen, is fallen.’ Furthermore, Peter says, ‘The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you,’ that is, in Rome….” [1 Peter 5:13].
• The Summa of Inquisitor Rainerius Sacconi, circa 1250:
Against the Cathars……..”They believe all the sacraments of the Roman Church, namely baptism of actual water and the other sacraments, are of no avail for salvation and that they are not the true sacraments of Christ and His Church, but are deceptive and diabolical and belong to the church of the wicked…..Never do they implore the aid or intervention of angels, or of the Blessed Virgin Mary, or of the saints, nor fortify themselves by the sign of the Cross……the existence of Purgatory they totally deny……no works are required of them for penance or for the remission of sins…..”( op. cit. pp.330, 332, 333).
The reader needs to realize the citizens interrogated were not seminarians, but were primarily ‘blue collar’ workers with little formal education. Having been born anew by the Spirit, they were taught by the Father, through the Scriptures which were translated from Latin into their native languages. This was achieved through the valiant efforts of ex-Roman priests who were spiritually reborn, renouncing their previous Church membership, unlike the imaginary ‘born-again’ Catholics championed by agedman and Servant, who remain in full communion with anti-Christianity.
We have all heard the proverb, FAKE NEWS. An in-depth study of the so-called ‘heretics’ of the Middle Ages reveals FAKE CHURCH HISTORY prevalent in the vast majority of scholarly publications taking the Catholic Inquisitors POV. I found the discourse on Church History’s 13th century by eminent scholar, Dr. John Gerstner, (so highly recommended by AustinC), to be vapid, uninspired and pedestrian in tone, facts and discernment. This is not surprising since he refused to acknowledge the in-grained anti-Christ ever wicked depravity of a so-called ‘Christian’ religious system which was clearly described in Holy Writ centuries beforehand.
Incredibly, this same eminent scholar was of the opinion that torturing of the innocent would have been justified, if by such methods conversion would be the end result! For what is a few days of torture compared with an eternity of unbearable pain! Apparently, he is of the ilk whose motto is let us do evil that good may come.
[Continued] Moneta was a 13th century Dominican who actively interrogated the ‘heretical’ Cathars. He kept extensive notes which resulted in his Summa, the sum and substance of beliefs held by the Cathars. The following quotes are taken from Wakefield & Evans, Heresies of the High Middle Ages, pp. 326-329.
Let the reader discern for himself which of the two is the heretic: the Cathars/Albigenses or the Roman Catholic Church.
“Also, the heretics say that the Church of Christ first gave instructions before it would baptize anyone, as is found in Matthew 28;19. The Roman Church baptizes before it teaches, as is obvious in the case of infants. Furthermore, Christ and His disciples are never known to have baptized anyone who lacked faith and the ability to reason. But the Roman Church does….
“Also, the heretic says, ‘The Church of God did not kill or swear [oaths]. The Roman Church does so…..
“Also, the heretic says that the children of the Roman Church rob and steal, contrary to God’s command….
“Also, they object that many there are in the Roman Church who are in want, half dead from hunger, thirst and cold, on whom the wealthy members of the Roman Church have no pity, but allow them to weep, to be afflicted by these sufferings. [N.B. Consider the construction of Notre Dame Cathedral while the vast majority of the population lived in poverty.]
“Also, the heretic objects that the Roman Church has multiplied and spread throughout the world, but the Church of God, on the contrary, is few in number: Matthew 7:14.
“Also, the heretic objects, saying: ‘The Church of Christ is called a heresy by the priests and leaders, as appears in Acts 24:14 [therefore, we, too, are called a heresy].’
“Also, the heretic objects, saying, ‘Orders such as Augustinian and Benedictine orders were not present in the Church of Christ. They exist in the Roman Church…..
“They also say that no one may be saved, but in Christ’s teaching, which the Apostles transmitted……. [N.B. Sola Scriptura].
“In execration of the Roman Church the heretic cites the text of Apocalypse 17:3; and, to sum it up briefly, the Cathars, and the Leonists [Waldenses] as well, believe that all or almost all of what is found in the Apocalypse, Chapters 17 - 18, unto chapter 19 verse 3 was recorded against the Roman Church. For they interpret ‘the beast’ and ‘the woman’ as references to the Roman Church. The beast, we read, was scarlet. These words are applicable to the lord Pope, who is the head of the Roman Church. Likewise, we find in verse 4 that the woman was clothed with scarlet and purple and gilt with gold and precious stones and pearls having a golden cup in her hand. This symbol they attach to the Roman Church. The woman drunk with the blood of the saints (verse 6) is referred to in the same connection. This symbol they attach to the Roman Church because it orders their death, for they believe they [the Cathars] are saints. At the end of chapter 17, verse 18 one reads, “And the woman which thou sawest is the great city which has kingdom over the kings of the earth’ [which was Rome at the time of the Apostle’s writings, proving the Roman Church to be the Great Whore]. They also seek to prove their point [that the woman, the Church of Rome, is Mystery Babylon] from the fact that the woman is called Babylon at the end of chapter 16, verse 19, and in Apocalypse 18:2, says, ‘Babylon the great, is fallen, is fallen.’ Furthermore, Peter says, ‘The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you,’ that is, in Rome….” [1 Peter 5:13].
• The Summa of Inquisitor Rainerius Sacconi, circa 1250:
Against the Cathars……..”They believe all the sacraments of the Roman Church, namely baptism of actual water and the other sacraments, are of no avail for salvation and that they are not the true sacraments of Christ and His Church, but are deceptive and diabolical and belong to the church of the wicked…..Never do they implore the aid or intervention of angels, or of the Blessed Virgin Mary, or of the saints, nor fortify themselves by the sign of the Cross……the existence of Purgatory they totally deny……no works are required of them for penance or for the remission of sins…..”( op. cit. pp.330, 332, 333).
The reader needs to realize the citizens interrogated were not seminarians, but were primarily ‘blue collar’ workers with little formal education. Having been born anew by the Spirit, they were taught by the Father, through the Scriptures which were translated from Latin into their native languages. This was achieved through the valiant efforts of ex-Roman priests who were spiritually reborn, renouncing their previous Church membership, unlike the imaginary ‘born-again’ Catholics championed by agedman and Servant, who remain in full communion with anti-Christianity.
We have all heard the proverb, FAKE NEWS. An in-depth study of the so-called ‘heretics’ of the Middle Ages reveals FAKE CHURCH HISTORY prevalent in the vast majority of scholarly publications taking the Catholic Inquisitors POV. I found the discourse on Church History’s 13th century by eminent scholar, Dr. John Gerstner, (so highly recommended by AustinC), to be vapid, uninspired and pedestrian in tone, facts and discernment. This is not surprising since he refused to acknowledge the in-grained anti-Christ ever wicked depravity of a so-called ‘Christian’ religious system which was clearly described in Holy Writ centuries beforehand.
Incredibly, this same eminent scholar was of the opinion that torturing of the innocent would have been justified, if by such methods conversion would be the end result! For what is a few days of torture compared with an eternity of unbearable pain! Apparently, he is of the ilk whose motto is let us do evil that good may come.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
A Cathar Treatise Vindicating Their Church of Heresy, circa 1250.
[N.B. By using the New Testament Gospels and Epistles as their sole authority, the Cathars delineate the qualities and character traits of the biblical Church of God.]
“In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. We propose to recount some testimony from Holy Scriptures in order to give knowledge and understanding of the Church of God. This Church is not made of stones or wood, or of anything made by hand, for it is written in the Acts of the Apostles that the Most High dwelleth not in houses made by hands. But this Holy Church is the assembly of the faithful; holy men in whom Jesus lives and will live until the end of the world, as our Lord says in the Gospel of St. Matthew, Behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. [The Cathar author then cites Scriptures teaching the Father and Paraclete will make an abode in the obedient, as well as those Scriptures teaching Christians are the temple of the living God, who has promised to dwell in His people. It is for this beloved Church that Christ delivered Himself] (Wakefield & Evans, pp. 596-97).
[N.B. The following excerpts omit the innumerable Scriptural proofs the Cathar author cited to substantiate the principles listed.]
“This Church of God of which we speak has received such power from our Lord Jesus Christ that sins are pardoned by its prayer…….This Church refrains from killing, nor does it consent that others may kill……This Church refrains from adultery and all uncleanness…..This Church refrains from theft or robbery……This Church refrains from lying and bearing false witness…..This Church refrains from oaths…….This Church refrains from blasphemy and from cursing……..Christ says, Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree evil and its fruit evil. And therefore, the Church of God desires all its fruit be good, so that it may be like its good teacher and pastor, Jesus Christ. For all those things which He taught to others He first did and fulfilled in His works, so that if anyone did not wish to believe in Him through His words, he may believe through His good works. Of this He says in the Gospel of St. John, If you are not willing to believe the words, believe the works. Therefore St. Peter says, Christ suffered for us, leaving us an example that we may follow in His steps, Who did not sin, neither was guile found in His mouth. Thus, the Church of God, which is called the body of Christ, seeks to follow its head, who is Jesus Christ…..Thus, since righteous Christians are members of Christ, it behooves them to be holy, pure and chaste, and soiled with no sin, even as their head, Jesus Christ” (pp. 597-602).
[N.B. The following cites Chapter 10 of the Treatise in its entirety due to the uncommon clarity and irrefutable nature of its arguments proving either the Cathar Church is of God or the Roman Church is of God. For it is impossible both are of God, since they are diametrically opposed to one another.]
“This Church suffers persecutions and tribulations and martyrdoms in the name of Christ, for He Himself suffered them in the desire to redeem and save His Church and to show them by deed and word that until the end of the world they must suffer persecution, contumely [i.e. ‘slander’] and malediction [i.e. ‘curses’], just as He says in the Gospel of St. John, If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you. And in the Gospel of St. Matthew He says, Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake. Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. And again He says, Behold, I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves; and again, And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake; he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved. And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another.
“Note how these words of Christ contradict the wicked Roman Church. For it [the Roman Church] is not persecuted for the goodness or justice [i.e. ‘righteousness’] which is in it. But on the contrary, it persecutes and kills all who refuse to condone its sins and its actions. It flees not from city to city, but rules over cities, towns and provinces while seated in grandeur in the pomp of this world. It is feared by kings and emperors and other men. Nor is it like sheep among wolves, but rather like wolves among sheep or goats. For it endeavors to rule over pagans, Jews and Gentiles. And above all does it persecute and kill the Holy Church of Christ [i.e. Cathar Church], which bears all things in patience, like the sheep, making no defense against the wolf. Therefore, St. Paul says, For They sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. But in contrast to this, the shepherds of the Roman Church feel no shame in saying they are the sheep and lambs of Christ, and they declare the wolves are the Church of Christ, which is persecuted by them. But this is a contradiction, for in times past the wolves persecuted and killed the sheep; now all would be reversed [the Roman Church claims with ludicrous logic], that the sheep [i.e. Roman Church] are so enraged that they bite, persecute and kill the [Cathar] wolves! And [if carried out to its logical conclusion] the [Cathar] wolves are quite patient as to allow themselves to be devoured by the [Roman] sheep.
“But the Roman Church says further, ‘We do not persecute heretics for their good works, but for faith, because they refuse to accept our faith.’ Note how they seem to be the sons of those who killed Christ and the apostles, for they have killed and persecuted – and will do so until the end – because the saints speak out against their sins, and preach to them the truth which they cannot understand [1 Cor. 2:14]. Whence Christ says in the Gospel of St. John says to them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? And they answered Him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy. Thus, it is manifest from the beginning of the world the wolves killed and persecuted the sheep [Genesis 4:8], and the wicked persecuted the good, and sinners persecuted the saints. And therefore St. Paul says, All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Note that he did not say, ‘shall persecute,’ but ‘shall suffer persecution.’ And Jesus Christ, in the Gospel of St. John, says, The hour cometh that whosoever killeth you will think that he doth a service to God. Note that He did not say, ‘The hour cometh for you to persecute and kill men and offer worship to God.’
“And again, the good Jesus Christ says to persecutors, Behold, I send you scribes and wise men, and you will put them to death and crucify them and scourge them and persecute them from city to city. And in the Acts of the Apostles, the apostles said, For through many tribulations and persecutions we must enter into the kingdom of heaven. And therefore, St. John the apostle says, Wonder not, brethren, if the world hate you.
[N.B. By using the New Testament Gospels and Epistles as their sole authority, the Cathars delineate the qualities and character traits of the biblical Church of God.]
“In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. We propose to recount some testimony from Holy Scriptures in order to give knowledge and understanding of the Church of God. This Church is not made of stones or wood, or of anything made by hand, for it is written in the Acts of the Apostles that the Most High dwelleth not in houses made by hands. But this Holy Church is the assembly of the faithful; holy men in whom Jesus lives and will live until the end of the world, as our Lord says in the Gospel of St. Matthew, Behold, I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. [The Cathar author then cites Scriptures teaching the Father and Paraclete will make an abode in the obedient, as well as those Scriptures teaching Christians are the temple of the living God, who has promised to dwell in His people. It is for this beloved Church that Christ delivered Himself] (Wakefield & Evans, pp. 596-97).
[N.B. The following excerpts omit the innumerable Scriptural proofs the Cathar author cited to substantiate the principles listed.]
“This Church of God of which we speak has received such power from our Lord Jesus Christ that sins are pardoned by its prayer…….This Church refrains from killing, nor does it consent that others may kill……This Church refrains from adultery and all uncleanness…..This Church refrains from theft or robbery……This Church refrains from lying and bearing false witness…..This Church refrains from oaths…….This Church refrains from blasphemy and from cursing……..Christ says, Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree evil and its fruit evil. And therefore, the Church of God desires all its fruit be good, so that it may be like its good teacher and pastor, Jesus Christ. For all those things which He taught to others He first did and fulfilled in His works, so that if anyone did not wish to believe in Him through His words, he may believe through His good works. Of this He says in the Gospel of St. John, If you are not willing to believe the words, believe the works. Therefore St. Peter says, Christ suffered for us, leaving us an example that we may follow in His steps, Who did not sin, neither was guile found in His mouth. Thus, the Church of God, which is called the body of Christ, seeks to follow its head, who is Jesus Christ…..Thus, since righteous Christians are members of Christ, it behooves them to be holy, pure and chaste, and soiled with no sin, even as their head, Jesus Christ” (pp. 597-602).
[N.B. The following cites Chapter 10 of the Treatise in its entirety due to the uncommon clarity and irrefutable nature of its arguments proving either the Cathar Church is of God or the Roman Church is of God. For it is impossible both are of God, since they are diametrically opposed to one another.]
“This Church suffers persecutions and tribulations and martyrdoms in the name of Christ, for He Himself suffered them in the desire to redeem and save His Church and to show them by deed and word that until the end of the world they must suffer persecution, contumely [i.e. ‘slander’] and malediction [i.e. ‘curses’], just as He says in the Gospel of St. John, If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you. And in the Gospel of St. Matthew He says, Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake. Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven. For so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. And again He says, Behold, I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves; and again, And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake; he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved. And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another.
“Note how these words of Christ contradict the wicked Roman Church. For it [the Roman Church] is not persecuted for the goodness or justice [i.e. ‘righteousness’] which is in it. But on the contrary, it persecutes and kills all who refuse to condone its sins and its actions. It flees not from city to city, but rules over cities, towns and provinces while seated in grandeur in the pomp of this world. It is feared by kings and emperors and other men. Nor is it like sheep among wolves, but rather like wolves among sheep or goats. For it endeavors to rule over pagans, Jews and Gentiles. And above all does it persecute and kill the Holy Church of Christ [i.e. Cathar Church], which bears all things in patience, like the sheep, making no defense against the wolf. Therefore, St. Paul says, For They sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. But in contrast to this, the shepherds of the Roman Church feel no shame in saying they are the sheep and lambs of Christ, and they declare the wolves are the Church of Christ, which is persecuted by them. But this is a contradiction, for in times past the wolves persecuted and killed the sheep; now all would be reversed [the Roman Church claims with ludicrous logic], that the sheep [i.e. Roman Church] are so enraged that they bite, persecute and kill the [Cathar] wolves! And [if carried out to its logical conclusion] the [Cathar] wolves are quite patient as to allow themselves to be devoured by the [Roman] sheep.
“But the Roman Church says further, ‘We do not persecute heretics for their good works, but for faith, because they refuse to accept our faith.’ Note how they seem to be the sons of those who killed Christ and the apostles, for they have killed and persecuted – and will do so until the end – because the saints speak out against their sins, and preach to them the truth which they cannot understand [1 Cor. 2:14]. Whence Christ says in the Gospel of St. John says to them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? And they answered Him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy. Thus, it is manifest from the beginning of the world the wolves killed and persecuted the sheep [Genesis 4:8], and the wicked persecuted the good, and sinners persecuted the saints. And therefore St. Paul says, All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Note that he did not say, ‘shall persecute,’ but ‘shall suffer persecution.’ And Jesus Christ, in the Gospel of St. John, says, The hour cometh that whosoever killeth you will think that he doth a service to God. Note that He did not say, ‘The hour cometh for you to persecute and kill men and offer worship to God.’
“And again, the good Jesus Christ says to persecutors, Behold, I send you scribes and wise men, and you will put them to death and crucify them and scourge them and persecute them from city to city. And in the Acts of the Apostles, the apostles said, For through many tribulations and persecutions we must enter into the kingdom of heaven. And therefore, St. John the apostle says, Wonder not, brethren, if the world hate you.
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