Mon ami, let us try to keep this as civil as possible, oui?
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A carryover thread from 'The Children whom God hath given me .'
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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Mon ami, let us try to keep this as civil as possible, oui?
But the same connotation is expressed in Jude 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. Carnal peoples are carnal because they are fleshly, devoid of God's Spirit. Sinners can have acts of carnality, but they do not live carnally. They will repent.
Say you write to a church. You will write it, address it by its name. As you are writing it, you will call them 'Brothers' and 'Sisters'. Now, you have no idea if all the members of that church are truly saved or not. Yes, Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Spirit, but he was never omniscient, so he had no idea who was saved and who was not. But you still call them 'Brothers' and 'Sisters'. He was reprimanding them for acting as they did. But there is no such thing as a carnal Christian, in my opinion. Yes, we do act carnally at times, but we never dwell in a state of carnality for long periods of time. We will repent when the Spirit chastises us.
He acted carnally for a time, but yes, he repented. But that does not mean he was a carnal Christian.
Remember, some people do have outside problems that gives them trouble. Some have thyroid problems and that makes them gain weight. Others have short arms, and they are too short to push them back from the table. :laugh: But an overweight preacher being carnal is quite the stretch, in my opinion.
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I never stated they were false teachers, mon ami. I said they could have been false converts who were spreading their false doctrine with others at the church of Corinth. They were not teachers in that they stood and taught their doctrine to the whole flock, but were spreading it by speaking to the other members.
In my opinion, what you are calling carnal Christians appears to me they are really false converts. But I do not live where you do, and I do not see those you do, so it is hard for me to say. Let me put it to you this way. I have a relative who has been in church longer than I have. But if he tells you something that is 10 words long, you have to throw out 12 of them. He has the prettiest singing voice you could ever wish to hear, has preached a few pretty good sermons, but he is as worldly as they come. I saw his girlfriend's car sitting outside his house before at before 8:00 am, too. There is no way he is a carnal Christian, he is a false convert. He has flowed from church to church and he will tear them up. He will start to tell a story and before he finishes it, he will contradict himself. That is not a carnal Christian in my opinion, but a false convert.
I have faith that when I turn the key in my ignition my car will start.
I have faith in the taxi driver that he will take me where I ask him.
I have faith that my son will complete the task I asked him to do.
I have faith in my wife that she will soon finish making supper
That is not saving faith, mon ami.
And You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.[Rom. 8:9] Abram was regenerated and had the Spirit given to him by God.
It is the saving faith of God that is given to sinners to believe upon Him. Satan spoke with God and he was not saved. Why? God never granted him faith and repentance. The angels And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.[Jude 6] Why are they still bound in darkness? They were never given faith and repentance.
There is not many faiths but one faith, mon ami, in regards to God saving sinners. It is saving faith that is wrought in the hearts of God's peoples at the point of regeneration, that is exercised alongside repentance.
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I just notice a faux pas here. I meant to say does not. Sorry about my faux pas.
In the OT angels appeared even to the unsaved--Pharaoh of Egypt and Abimilech of Gerar--Genesis 12 and 20. Thus the presence of angel doesn't indicate that the person is saved. God is not committed to sending his angels to saved individuals only. In fact he sent an angel to divinely obstruct the path of a donkey which in turn would make the donkey speak to a false prophet. The presence of an angel or an angel coming to him in a vision, or God speaking to him through an angel, etc. is no guarantee of salvation. It happened in OT times, and as you say, this was a time of transition.
Paul's experience was totally different.
He met the Lord on the way to Damascus. As soon as the Lord spoke to him, he said "LORD, who art thou," and then, "LORD, what will thou have me to do." Going from one who possibly participated in HIS crucifixion and also in the stoning of Jesus to calling Christ Lord and submitting to him immediately is astounding. He was saved right there and then.
"If thou shalt call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt be saved," and he did.
Other examples given involve the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12) which I believe have ceased. They were also the signs of an apostle (Heb.2:3,4).
I agree, and that is why I believe the Word and faith in the word must precede both.
I don't see where the Bible teaches that. Faith comes by hearing the Word.
Faith is only a spiritual gift to spiritual people, not to the unsaved. God would not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate/unsaved. That is why it is not a gift from God. God does not give one the faith to believe, otherwise it would be like forcing salvation on them.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." NOT
Believe (with the faith of God) on the Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn't even make sense, nor is that teaching found in scripture. The Lord wants us to believe in him.
Over and over again he said to those he healed:
Thy faith has made you whole. Be it according to thy faith. He always related healing according to "their faith."
Faith is simply confidence or trust. It is the object of the faith that is important. Faith needs an object.
Consider Jesus. Is he the object of one's faith? That is what counts.
There is nothing mystical about faith.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--Jesus clearly tells them to believe on Him or Him that sent Christ specifically. That was their obligation. Just as he said to everyone else, it was their faith that counted.
Just 6 verses later he says this:
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
--You must come to Jesus.
--You must believe on him. Christ doesn't do the coming and the believing.
Also Phpps. 2:13,
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
--Paul is speaking to and about Christians. This has nothing to do with salvation.
Rom. 9:16,
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
--The greater context is God's dealings with Israel, the former verse speaking of Moses and the following verse speaking of Pharaoh.
The subject here is the sovereignty of God, not the origin of faith.
Heb. 12:2,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
--As previously mentioned, the faith in this verse is our tangible faith, the faith that we contend for.
Rom. 12:3.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
--Think of the first two verses here. Paul is writing only to Christians. He then speaks of spiritual gifts.
Yes, and so did they.
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
--Semi-Pelagianism? Really?
Was the Holy Spirit involved here or not? They actively refused the conviction of the Holy Spirit, even as Stephen said they would:
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
dhk says this;
another denial of the supernatural salvation.....he has man saving himself.
another denial of the supernatural salvation.....he has man saving himself.
Let me clarify myself on what I stated earlier. I agree that angels appeared to both the Godly and wicked. The bible plainly lays that out as biblical truth. However, to use Cornelius' or even Paul's, experience to derive a doctrine is iffy at best. None of us have had that experience, and I am certain Paul's experience was the last time this happened. So to preach regeneration occurring in these direct means(God speaking to them or an angel of His) is not good hermeneutics, in my opinion. However, we can find the OT passages where Abram was regenerated by God. When Abram “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.[Rom. 4:3b] Then we also have Moses who was regenerated by God when He appeared unto Moses in the burning bush. Moses was in the desert minding his own business when he saw the burning bush. Then we can read of David. He was taking care of the flock when Samuel came to him and poured the oil upon him. All of these had the Spirit, yet not in His plenitude as we do today. Then Paul goes on to write Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:1-13, Philippians 2:13, &c. So we can see regeneration prior to anything positive towards the gospel in the OT & NT.
Yes. Agree.
Yes. Agree. God directly regenerated Paul right then and there. But his experience is way different than ours, so I would not use this experience for a doctrinal stance that regeneration leads to salvation.
Yes. Agree.
Yes it takes the word. Yes it takes grace through faith to be saved. But faith coming from a dead sinner prior to having life? No. It takes life to bring about a living hope. As Peter said Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.[1 Pet. 1:3] The new birth, the birth from above, regeneration via God's Spirit, is what gives us the living hope. Then Peter goes on to write As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.[2 Pet. 2:4,5] We are living stones because Christ is the living Stone. We take upon us His life, as we are For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.[Col. 3:3] And furthermore Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. When God quickens a sinner, they exercise faith and repentance and take upon themselves Christ's nature, after the soul of man I mean here. We take upon ourselves Christ's nature because we “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.[Jn 15:1-5] Notice Christ already told them they were already clean by the words He spoke unto them, yet we also see that after His ascension, they were filled with the Spirit. They had the Spirit, but got His plenitude on the day of Pentecost. He also stated that as long as they remained in Him, they would produce good fruit. They, and consequently us, have good fruits because we have taken on His nature; again the soul is what I am referring to here.
I have showed you many times. You just disagree with my answers.
Do not disagree.
Yes.
God quickens, gives them faith and repentance and they exercise them that very instant. They are not lost when He quickens.
They do not meet that criteria after the quickening of the Spirit.
Again, you guys are the only ones who say God would be 'forcing' salvation upon them. We do not believe that to be the case, mon ami. God gives them faith via regeneration. He does not shove it down their throats. Faith comes by hearing, which shows faith comes from an outside Source and not innate, inherent in mankind.
Had to cut this into two parts. It was too long for one post.
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Yes.
God wants us to do this ourselves? Huh? Again, Rom. 9:16, John 6:29, Phpp. 2:13, state otherwise. Man is his fallen state is dead and can not believe. It takes God to quicken him mon ami.
'Thy faith' is correct. Once received it became theirs.
Saving faith does not lay dormant in a sinner, mon ami. The sinner does not possess this saving faith and is just waiting for Someone to come by and exercise it upon Them. Saving faith is a gift from Almighty God Himself. Saving faith is not mystical, it is a supernatural exchange between God and a sinner. It is imparted unto them in regeneration.
Everybody is obligated to believe. Only those that God gives the ability to believe in Him are the ones saved, mon ami.
Christ draws and we come, yes. But drawing, the drawing that Christ does, one has to come, as it means to literally drag someone. And no, not kicking and screaming, either. As He told Jeremiah The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: “I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.[Jer. 31:3] God drawing a sinner never fails.
Huh? Either way, it is God who is working out His will in our lives. Our will must, and will, be bent towards His. It is called progressive sanctification, mon ami.
But then is vs 18 Paul said Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. God has mercy on His sheep mon ami, and hardens the goats. That is the trhust of vs 16.
Disagree.
Yes, the saved exercise faith. But it says He has dealt it to For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. The 'each of you' is the Roman church.
I already stated in a previous post we all resisted the Holy Spirit. I never stated otherwise. But there came a time in my life when He made Himself so real to me, I could not, and would not, turn Him away. He opened my eyes to see, my ears to hear, opened my heart to receive the Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.[Jam. 1:21] This will happen to all His sheep.
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SovereignGrace
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I promise you people Iconoclast is not a paid employee of mine. Thank you again for the encouraging post.
I heard a converted Muslim preach the other night. He stated that he knows many have had an angel come to them and reveal to them that they should seek out a certain person who will tell them of Christ. Like Cornelius he further stated that He knows folks in that area where that has occurred.
Now I am even skeptical of such things but God does have that power and ability.
We never know when an angel may be present the writer of Hebrews states.
Paul said An Angel from Heaven could preach the Gospel. So it could very easily be that god does send His angels to those in the world that man hasn't been able to reach.
We can fairly well be see that those who were scattered at the tower of Babel consisted of the believing and non-believing alike. The believing had a belief in the savior who was to come. That is what brought them salvation. Those in our world who are descendants from those scattered could have trusted in the one who is coming and like those in Acts who had not heard were still saved. But God sent messengers to them to tell them of Christ.
If God used different manners to speak in times past He can still speak to those whom can't or haven't been reached in those same divers manners.
Three types of people exist in this world today:
Sarkikos = those who operate out of the SARX that is the flesh. Most often translated as carnal. thus the believer walking in sin under the influence of the Old Nature. Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians 3:1 as carnal yet he says he speaks to those in Corinth as babes in Christ. Meaning they haven't grown spiritually and have become Sarkikos or fleshly yet again. They didn't lose their salvation but they had failed to remain filled with the Spirit. They failed in the Christian way of life:
The word for Spirit is Pnuema and that leads to the second type here,
Pnuematikos=Those who are operating under the Spirit that is influenced and filled or under the control of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 3:1 those who are Spiritual.
Then we have those who are Psychikos=natural used in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Belonging to the natural characteristics of man. That is the unsaved.
Is this the gospel we are speaking of?
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14
And is the following speaking of the same thing?
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:3,5
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14
And is the following speaking of the same thing?
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:3,5
There are only two men......Spiritual......Carnal.....Romans 8 is quite clear.
The heresy know as the teaching of the "carnal christian".....needs to be set aside.
Do you follow the book of Mormon then? If not why not? Didn't you feel the burning in your bosom?...
According to Paul their are the Sarchicos=Carnel who are babes in Christ and living after the flesh as was the church at Corinth. There are also spiritual those who are filled with the Spirit as Ephesians 5:18 tells us to be filled with the Spirit. There are natural men that those who don't understand spiritual things because they are not saved.
Now their are two divisions of man:
Saved who are either;
1. Of the Sarx = fleshly belivers who are following the Old Sin Nature
2. Pnumatickos = Beliveres operating under the control and influence of the Holy Spirit.
Unsaved those are the psychicos= natural people operating under the Old sin Nature and having not believed on the Lord operating entirely in flesh with no Spiritual life.
The command of the Great Commission has never been rescinded.
The question is not of being drawn, but rather hearing. If one is not drawn it is because he has rejected after having heard. If he has not heard then: shall his blood not be upon our hands for not giving him the gospel that he should have heard. We have been entrusted with the Great Commission.
With that in mind, consider also such events as this one:
http://www.worthynews.com/20283-armenian-turks-convert-back-to-christianity
When a person wants to hear the gospel, or the truth about salvation, God will provide a way for them to hear that truth.
I have no idea what you are speaking of, but then again sometimes I'm better off not knowing!
I do know what have believed and am persuaded the He is able to keep that (my soul) which I have committed unto Him against that day.
Christ and the Holy Spirit called me to salvation and I answered that call. I know not what the Mormans teach about all of salvation, I do know that they believe they can pay and pray people out of Hell and that is definitely unbiblical.
Faith is faith. Everyone has faith. You treat faith as if it is mystical.
Where does the Bible use the term "saving faith," and what is it?
Faith is confidence, trust. We all have confidence and trust in someone and even in some things. I wouldn't buy a clunky old car if I didn't have the faith/confidence/trust that it would get me from point A to point B without breaking down. Faith is faith. It is the object of the faith that is important.
When you speak of "living faith," and "dead faith" you attribute mystical qualities to an intangible making it personal which it is not. It is not a living entity. Nor is it like electricity. It is simply confidence in the promises or word of another.
A child may have confidence in mankind in general and be very friendly and out-going. Then something terrible might happen (molestation by a relative). His "faith" in mankind may be shattered for a good part of his life. He may become withdrawn and sullen. Does that make faith either living or dead? No. But it does destroy or shatter or weaken (the latter being the best word) his faith or confidence in people in general.
A person must learn the facts of the gospel, if he hasn't grown up in a Christian family. Once he knows them he must accept them by faith--personally apply them to his own life. It is not mystical. Regeneration doesn't come first. The acceptance of this message by faith must be received (through conviction of the Holy Spirit), and then he will be regenerated/saved.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that God gives any unsaved sinner faith.
The Bible doesn't ascribe personal attributes to faith. That is mysticism.
Faith is neither living nor is it dead. It is innnate. Everyone has faith. Jesus inferred that little children had faith. He told most that came to him that "their faith" had made them whole.
Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
That is a Calvinistic philosophy. It is not Scriptural. See the Scriptures above. God doesn't give faith.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Did God do the believing for him? No. It was his own faith. It always is.