Says who?
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A Caution For Every Christian That Drinks Alcohol
- Thread starter righteousdude2
- Start date
Says who?
Sapper Woody
Well-Known Member
Without looking it up, I believe that most cities have ordinances against openly drinking in public, and also public drunkenness.
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Jeremy Seth
Member
What I mean to be asking is how do you define the limit? It is my understanding that being influenced at all by alcohol is drunkenness.
From the moderation point of view, if trial and error is the way to find a limit, how does one ensure he stays safely below that standard during his testing?
Also soliciting.
There are standardized equations focused on body weight, mass & alcohol consumption (Type of drink, alcohol content, time & quantity of consumption etc) ...but personally I know via experience where to draw the line.
What is your support for this opinion?
Is a person who is influenced (has bodily chemical changes) by the consumption of food a glutton?
Is a person who sleeps a sluggard?
Jeremy Seth
Member
I hold this stance because of the parallel made in Ephesians 5:18 between drunkenness and spirit-guidance, and haven't yet found any reason to conclude that drunkenness begins at any higher level than influence.
The comparison I think of is the doctrine that life begins at conception. The world makes opposing arguments based outside of scripture that ultimately are to be dismissed when they contradict God's word. This notion of a modern scientific definition of when drunkenness begins seems similarly revisionist .
"The line" you speak of is what I'm trying to understand from your perspective, how did you conclude from the bible that a certain effect on your body was nearing inappropriate influence from alcohol?
Since the Spirit is a Person, not a power or an influence, you are either FILLED with the Spirit or you're not. So let's look back at Ephesians 5:18 and think about what it clearly states:
"And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit..." (NASB)
What do we notice?
1.) We are not to "get drunk with wine." Fair enough. But what does that mean?
2.) That is described for us - "for that is dissipation." What does dissipation mean? Synonyms for this word translated from the Greek are debauchery, decadence, dissoluteness, dissolution, intemperance, excess, overconsumption, profligacy, self-indulgence, and wildness.
3.) So Paul tells his readers that we should have a lifestyle where we get drunk with wine (or really, any other alcoholic beverage) and then paints a picture of what that looks like - a debauched life.
4.) He provides a contrast to that life, and it is to be filled with the Spirit. The implication is that the lifestyle of the one who is filled with the Spirit will be the complete opposite of a drunken and wasteful lifestyle.
What evidence would be compelling for you? Much has been offered here, but apparently that's not what is helpful. Please let us know what it would take to change your mind?
Remember, no one here wants you to consume alcohol if you have any convictions against it, but we also want to answer your questions.
I'm not sure who has been trying to give you a "modern scientific definition" of drunkenness, other than point out some helpful guides that explain how alcohol intoxication can happen. The guides are mostly designed to evaluate persons who are planning to operate heavy machinery where the results of excess alcohol consumption can have fatal effects.
These standards were put in place for the industrial era because people used to be much heavier drinkers than they are today. When society because more dangerous with steam, fossil fuel, and electrical machines, society realized that a person did not have to be out-of-control to be dangerous, just have slowed reaction times. Therefore, the modern standard of intoxication is MORE STRINGENT than the biblical standard.
A couple of things:
1.) As I have pointed out before, I am not trying to give you a "line" (a legalistic standard) to define drunkenness, since the human tendency is to drive hard toward those imposed lines - right to the edge - and then attempt to stop before it's too late (after you have built up "momentum" in that direction. For example, it's like the standards for physical contact sometimes given to young people in the church. They are told they can go up to a certain level of physical intimacy before they violate the teaching about sexual chastity. The natural reaction is to charge toward that limit and hope to be able to stop the momentum before they violate that boundary. Even if they manage to avoid violating the boundary, they have likely already sinned against each other and God by treating each other as a means for sexual satisfaction outside of marriage. Instead, churches should teach young people to honor and respect each other, and not to use each other for sexual fulfillment outside of marriage. If you have no intention of using each other, then you are highly unlikely to go too far sexually. By the same token, if you have determined that you have no interested in getting drunk and will guard against it, you simply are highly unlikely to get drunk. It's simply a matter of the heart, not boundaries. If you don't recognize that as being biblical, I can give you extensive references to the teachings of Jesus, Paul and James, but I trust you understand that.
2.) The Bible gives numerous references to drunkenness that mention poor behavior but - as far as I know - does not go into great detail about how to determine if one is drunk. The Bible also doesn't give many recipes as to how to prepare food or the care and feeding of livestock. There is common knowledge among humankind and the Bible doesn't have to spell everything out. If one is out of control of their body, the things they say, and the exercise of their will or their mind, then they are definitely drunk.
3.) Since I have never been drunk, I am not an expert in personal drunkenness, although I have been around drunk people on numerous occasions. I have never had an interest in being drunk, so I simply limit what I drink. I spent much of this last week out of state at a series of meetings for my firm. Alcohol was available every day and many people around me drank heavily. I had exactly one glass of white wine the entire week at a Happy Hour. I did not have any issues being drunk because I simply refused to be served a second glass of wine, although the waitress came by about every five minutes to give me a refill until I ordered a Coke to replace my empty wine glass. I am the size of an NFL lineman, so I KNOW one glass of wine will have essentially no effect on me. Now I have a coworker who is not a strong believer - if a true believer at all (we've talked here and there) - and she is a tiny woman. She keeps herself from getting drunk by also limiting herself to one beer, knowing that any more than that she will start the move into intoxication. She also has no interest in being drunk but is at a disadvantage because of her size.
4.) Simply put, if you decide you are not going to get drunk, you will take appropriate cautions and will not become drunk. You will not need a "line" to look after your own needs. If you are looking for a "line" so you can condemn others, then you have a completely different problem that is outside of the bounds of this conversation.
The Scripture does not condemn drinking alcohol but only the abuse of it. Ephesians 5:18 is not to be defined as merely "influence" but "control" and there is a big difference. Being "filled" by the Spirit is to be under his control so that your mouth, mind, and body manifest his will completely. To be drunk is for your mouth, mind, and actions to be under the complete control of alcohol so that you are notable to control your talking, thinking or acting. The Bible clearly speaks of drinking to moderation where you are in a state of joy but not drunken, your thinking, acting and talking are under your control and not under the control of alcohol.