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A Challenge to prove...
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
Primitive Baptist
New Member
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)
OK, but Calvinists here have admitted that their "belief" may be "fallible", and that they may not persevere to the end. (what I was trying to get at but in the rush forgot). If that is any of you, then does that mean you are believing in a "false god" you're calling "Jesus".(Calvin and the other writers claimed that a person could really think they were believing in Jesus (not just naming a god they made up "Jesus"), and still be lost.)
[ July 28, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
[ July 28, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
God brings to eternal life, all those who have truly believed in Him and have born of the Spirit. The Triune Godhead preserves every child of God. It is also, unfortunately true that not every saved person will persevere in faithfulness to Him. [I John 2:1] There will be some Christians who will be ashamed because of their negligent ways while living on this earth. Also, God takes some home to Heaven early through the 'sin unto death.' [I Corinthians 11:30b & I John 5:16 d & e]. These wayward people of God, once enjoying good fellowship with the Lord will be save by 'the skin of the teeth.' [I Corinthians 3:15] They will experience a loss of 'rewards' in Heaven but not their salvation which has been sealed by His blood and Spirit until ' . . . the day of redemption. [Ephesians 4:30].
Respectfully,
Ray Berrian, Th.D.
Respectfully,
Ray Berrian, Th.D.
Eric B,
The fifth point in tulip was not to make someone question their faith but to insure them that their faith is not in vain.
For the question....
I don't think that one is lost because they embrace Free Will Doctrine or Doctrines of Grace. That really has nothing to doing with being saved. Salvation is of the Lord and Him alone.
Whether someone is saved or not; It’s really not my business to question another’s salvation. That would be a question for each individual to ask themselves. It’s not for me to ask.
Are there those that say they are Christians and are not. Sure there are. The bible says so.
Matt 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
2 Cor 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Matt 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I have seen "works" been implied in one of your posts(posted July 27, 2002 12:04 PM). Salvation is not gained by works. Nor is it keep by works. Again, "perseverance of the Saints" means He will keep us not we will keep ourselves.
Ray did a wonderful job on his recent post. Far better than I could have done. Its a must read.
Stevie
[ July 28, 2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: absturzen ]
The fifth point in tulip was not to make someone question their faith but to insure them that their faith is not in vain.
For the question....
I don't think that one is lost because they embrace Free Will Doctrine or Doctrines of Grace. That really has nothing to doing with being saved. Salvation is of the Lord and Him alone.
Whether someone is saved or not; It’s really not my business to question another’s salvation. That would be a question for each individual to ask themselves. It’s not for me to ask.
Are there those that say they are Christians and are not. Sure there are. The bible says so.
Matt 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
2 Cor 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Matt 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I have seen "works" been implied in one of your posts(posted July 27, 2002 12:04 PM). Salvation is not gained by works. Nor is it keep by works. Again, "perseverance of the Saints" means He will keep us not we will keep ourselves.
Ray did a wonderful job on his recent post. Far better than I could have done. Its a must read.
Stevie
[ July 28, 2002, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: absturzen ]
I myself wasn't trying to imply works, but pointing out that in practice, some Calvinists had actually created works salvation with their teaching on "perseverance in holiness".
Also another point I was trying to get at in regards to perseverance, is, even if you say the people who did not persevere only believed in a "false Christ", or "their own idea" of Christ, still, many of these people will claim to have "called on the name of Christ", yet, if they don't "persevere", they were never saved. This is what I was trying to point out before. Calvinists claim the non-elect would not even call on the name of the Lord. I take it you would say they weren't sincere or something like that.
Also another point I was trying to get at in regards to perseverance, is, even if you say the people who did not persevere only believed in a "false Christ", or "their own idea" of Christ, still, many of these people will claim to have "called on the name of Christ", yet, if they don't "persevere", they were never saved. This is what I was trying to point out before. Calvinists claim the non-elect would not even call on the name of the Lord. I take it you would say they weren't sincere or something like that.
This is Blackbird on his perch. I have a couple of pistols in my gun cabinet that you guys can 'duel' with. Last person left standing wins the Calvin debate.
Have mercy, guys! Here's what Blackbird is thinking up here on his perch. If ole Mister Calvin could somehow rise up from the grave and be given the opportunity to read the foolishness and diddy-ing going on here--he'd probably be going something like "Tisk! Tisk! Tisk"
But he's not going to rise up yet. He's probably rolling over in his grave everyday over the foolish "challenges" "Know-it-all" preachers make against each other. I mean, did Calvin "Foreknow" what men in the 21st century were going to do with his "little less than infallable, inerrant" theology? Have mercy! I've been preaching 15 years and don't have the first Calvin/Armenian commentary--and I think I'm doing a wonderful job--seeing folks get saved here and there, baptising them and welcomeing them to our church fellowship like a good ole Baptist boy!
Have mercy, guys! Here's what Blackbird is thinking up here on his perch. If ole Mister Calvin could somehow rise up from the grave and be given the opportunity to read the foolishness and diddy-ing going on here--he'd probably be going something like "Tisk! Tisk! Tisk"
But he's not going to rise up yet. He's probably rolling over in his grave everyday over the foolish "challenges" "Know-it-all" preachers make against each other. I mean, did Calvin "Foreknow" what men in the 21st century were going to do with his "little less than infallable, inerrant" theology? Have mercy! I've been preaching 15 years and don't have the first Calvin/Armenian commentary--and I think I'm doing a wonderful job--seeing folks get saved here and there, baptising them and welcomeing them to our church fellowship like a good ole Baptist boy!
My mistake then.I myself wasn't trying to imply works,..
I have seen more hypercalvinism rather a works salvation within the Calvinistic ranks. But I wouldn't doubt one could find people putting works into salvation no matter where you go. Both are poisonous to ones growth....some Calvinists had actually created works salvation with their teaching on "perseverance in holiness".
I have personally found that most Calvinists I have met have been true to the doctrines of grace; which is we have no righteousness; our righteousness is only from the imputed righteousness of Christ.
I am kinda like pinoybaptist. I don't care too much for the word "perseverance." Preservation, I think is a more accurate word for the meaning.
I would say that is accurate assessment on my thoughts and I think that belief is traditional doctrines of grace. That the sincerity, desire, and true belief comes solely from regeneration which comes from God. Or better said, regeneration gives the person the ability to see the kingdom of God.Calvinists claim the non-elect would not even call on the name of the Lord. I take it you would say they weren't sincere or something like that.
The parable of the sower is an excellence description of the different people and how they react to the gospel message. The only argument between the two sides would be "what make the good ground good?" The Calvinistic side would say the God made that ground good through regeneration.
Stevie
[ July 29, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: absturzen ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Blackbird,
Just flying over your perch one time makes we want to say, "The Lord bless you; you're the man!! Sincerely, say a prayer for me; I also need a blessing from the Lord.
Ray
Just flying over your perch one time makes we want to say, "The Lord bless you; you're the man!! Sincerely, say a prayer for me; I also need a blessing from the Lord.
Ray
Ray Berrian
New Member
Primitive Baptist,
Your verse in I John 2:19 is a strong one that helps prove that there is true security in Jesus Christ. All of God's people are saved forever. Sure feels good to agree with you on the fifth point of Calvinistic theology. I think I better savor it.
In Christ,
Ray
Your verse in I John 2:19 is a strong one that helps prove that there is true security in Jesus Christ. All of God's people are saved forever. Sure feels good to agree with you on the fifth point of Calvinistic theology. I think I better savor it.
In Christ,
Ray
Ray Berrian
New Member
Eric,
I agree with you that some people by pushing to hard the idea of 'perserverance in holiness' have made the faith of Jesus a "faith works kind of belief." This is clearly a wrong emphasis.
I agree with you that some people by pushing to hard the idea of 'perserverance in holiness' have made the faith of Jesus a "faith works kind of belief." This is clearly a wrong emphasis.