A Church that Accepts Much

[nate]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Glory-to-God:
Any church that condones SIN is not of God

I agree that all those churches that condone slander of other Christians is not of God. </font>[/QUOTE]True! I have just as much of a problem with extremist KJVO churches as I do with this church in Canada. One teaches liberalism one says God is going to send everybody to hell unless they use the KJV and go to an IFBC!

 

[Filmproducer]

All I can say is.... I really don't know what to say. For once I am speechless. Some of you really need to read Romans 14 and take it to heart. Those Christians of stronger faith are NOT to be a stumbling block to those of weaker faith. What ever happened to Christian humility?


Marco, I do not for one minute think that you have weaker faith, but you are new to the faith, and I apologize for how you have been treated. I would think it quite unusual if a new Christian did not have questions, especially since you grew up in a different faith. Please do not become discouraged. If you study your Bible and pray the Lord will guide you. He will never leave you or forsake you. I also want to encourage you to talk with your new neighbors. I would not encourage you to attend their church, but definitely talk with them and even talk to them about your faith. You never know, maybe they are questioning the beliefs of their church, maybe not. We should always let our light shine, not hide it away for fear of being mislead. If you read your Bible faithfully, and pray for guidance, and you are in a good church, you have nothing to fear. God bless you.

Romans 14

14:1
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

14:2
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

14:3
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

14:6
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

14:7
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

14:8
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

14:15
But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

14:16
Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

14:18
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

14:19
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

14:20
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

14:21
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

14:22
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Marco:
As far as the gender neutral Bible...I have no clue as I am very new to the Bible.

I am probably one of the few supporters of gender neutral translation of the bible on this board. I do recommend the NRSV as a quality translation but most on this board will probably condemn it because of a translation decision of one verse in Isaiah. Let me know if you are interested in discussing this further on the Bible versions subforum.

For now, stick to the NKJV your church uses and get to know it well. Don't worry so much about the differences between translations at this point. I consider that to be a distraction to more important things in our faith.

 

[nate]

Gold Dragon:
Baptists that grew up around the 1950's generally pretty hostile to "liberal" Christians-- considering them to be pure evil!

Amen! My grandparents are like fatbacker so is my Uncle (a pastor in W. Virginia of an small IFBC) and a large majority of my extended KJVOist family. I'm thankful that I'm not one of them every day. Some would consider me "liberal" now because I agree 95% with the SBC.I'm glad God kept me from becoming hateful and full of spite!You never change anyone by calling in doubt their faith those that tend to be more to the left need to be loved and shown the truth (from our perspective). Just my opinion.

Nate

[ November 15, 2005, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[menageriekeeper]

I agree Filmproducer.

Marco, you can't just shun your neighbors. Unlovingness is unbecoming of a Christian. Without love we have nothing.

Instead, be friendly, but when the conversation strays to subjects you are not comfortable discussing, redirect it. There are not that many things to which we are directed to shun others for. Christ never shunned a sinner.

Fatbacker(as his name implies) is from the south and the south is known as the Bible belt for a reason. Even most nonChristians here have an understanding of basic Bible principals. He/we shouldn't expect folk from different places to have the same experience as we have.

 

[fatbacker]

Okay I guess I need to give a short little testimony about myself after being saved since I am being called hateful and rude and whatever else most of you think of me.

First of all I am not from the south I am from MN and moved to Las Vegas NV after I turned 18 and if any of you have been there you might understand that christians there are constantly being challenged and as far as I am concerned you will find no better christian then in Las Vegas. It is much easier to tell the real ones from the wanna be christian.

Anyway with the first 8 months of being saved of which happened in CA where I lived at the age of 22 I had been working at a gas station near a beach in CA and there are alot of homeless people of whom I witnessed to and feed many of them I had also been threatened by some because of witnessing and even got punched in the face by one because I was standing up for what I believed in. That was pretty major for me until shortly after that I get held at gun point by a guy I had roomed with and had been going to church with. He got mad at me for confronting him about physically hurting his 2 1/2 yr old daughter so instead of repenting of it he tried to kill me, obviously it didnt work. Shortly after that I moved back to MN where I was from and went to a church in a really bad part of Minneapolis where I attended a church who had a large picture of Jesus in the back ground and the cross. It all seemed to be okay until the preacher started fortelling the future for the congergation during the service. I talked to the pastor and told him God did not approve of that and he got mad at me offered my tithe back ( I refused ) and I left never to return to the church. I was also raised in a Jehovas witness home and if anyone has a clue about what they believe it is not good. So I had to deal with my mom and her JW friends who were always trying to get me to turn to their false doctrine. Jumping ahead quite a few years I was visiting my friends in Vegas and I was downtown vegas where I was approached by a woman who had an infant in the back seat and was asking me for money. I offered to help but she needed to take me to the store and I also was going to bring her to my old church to get some help for her,I knew my church had a benevolence fund. Well on the way she held a knife to the back of my neck and attempted to rob me with the infant in the back seat. I managed to get the knife away from her and no one got hurt, but for those of you who think I am hatefull I did not call the police on her but witnessed to her in a very very Christ like manner.

I have many many more things I could tell you about but it would take a very long time.

What I am trying to say more than anything is that while sharing a few major things that have happened to me and especially while young in my faith is that I stood up for what God taught me and for alot of my witnessing and sharing I did not just come out firing with guns blazing but sometimes I do and I do more so with churches and so called christians who just like the word and not the faith part of it. I do not bash unbelievers since they do not by their own choice have to live like I do and do not have the Holy spirit living in them.

And for the record and I am in no ways on the level of Jesus but if you can show me one religious zealot who was not in it for himself that Jesus did not fire out the hard and very bold truth to all of them then I will eat my socks. He in no way was trying to pursuade them to come to His side but He was constantly at battle with them and telling them exactly what they were... snakes, hypocrites, broods of vipers etc... Any preacher who preaches against God's word is exactly what Jesus called them and for that I am thankful. Jesus came out guns a blazing and though He was not popular for doing it it in no way made him a people hater for doing so.

And I do not apologize for seeming to bold and calling a sinful church for exactly what it is, SINFUL!!!

 

[Glory-to-God]

MARCO

My advice would be to ask your neighbors if they believe Jesus IS God. If they say no he is something else then I would stay away. Also if they do not take a strong stance on SIN and that we should live Holy lives. then it would not be the BEST church to attend.

The bible says we must be as WISE as serpents and harmeless as doves Matthew 10:16

That we should decern good from evil. PROVE all things hold fast to that which is good 1 Thess. 5:21

Be diligent to present yourslelf approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of TRUTH. 2 Tim 2:15

1 Thess. 5:21 But examine everything CAREFULLY, hold fast to that which is good !

Test the spirits to see if they are from God.
1 John 4:1

Just to name a few verses that show we are to always be aware of false churches and false doctrines. To do so isn't being judgmental it is being WISE !

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by fatbacker:


And I do not apologize for seeming to bold and calling a sinful church for exactly what it is, SINFUL!!!

I've heard this from you about 3 times but you never have said exactly what your problem is with this church. Secondly, I think your iniial statement to Marco was unacceptable. You might think you can say whatever you want to but that tends to destroy your Christian image. Ever hear about the Pharasees?

 

[fatbacker]

What problem do I have with that church hmmmmmmm let me think hmmmmmmmm.... They accept gay pastors, abortion is not murder and aparently enourage other worldly behavior hmmmmmm I guess thats it. In fact if a person says they are a born again believer and doesn't have a problem with it actually has the real problem. I am not really worried about my christian image from those who think gay pastors are acceptable.I have heard of the pharisees and it was those people that were constantly badgering Jesus about the things He was doing and saying. He was telling the truth about the liberal jewish leaders who were making up the rules to fit their needs and doing so to gain control over their own people and they did everything in their power to turn the people against them. If I seem zealous to call something for what it is then good. I would rathter be a little over zealous than luke warm or completely cold.

I believe I issued a small challenge to anyone who can tell me that Jesus did not come out with guns a blazin when ever the religious sect attacked Him for doing God's will. Again I am not even close to where Jesus was but what names do you have for Jesus when He called the religous Jews all of those names he called them? According to all the replies I get there is never a good time to just be bold and straight forward, we all need to just use the same tone for all situations and never really speak up. We are never supposed to get angry when we see God's house being defiled or when we see the idignation of people who call themselves christians and live like they are hellbound and try to justify their actions. We should never ever ever get mad in the name of Christ cuz someone will get offended!!!

 

[Filmproducer]

The difference fatbacker is that you did not just point out the problems with the doctrine of the church. You attacked Marco for asking the question. No one here is advocating for the church or its doctrines. You have no right to assume that because Marco asked the question he does not read his Bible, let alone question his salvation. You are NOT God, and no I do not believe Jesus would openly attack a new believer, or any believer, for asking a question. Please read Romans 14, especially the part about NOT being a stumbling block to young Christians. Attack the doctrine of the church to your heart's desire, just leave the personal attacks out of it.

[ November 15, 2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by StefanM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fatbacker:
But if some not all christians would realize that not every answer has to have a sweet smelling aroma to it that makes us feel all fuzzy inside we would all be in better shape and I believe more people would be in the churches in this country because the truth is being told and stood up for.

If something is biblical, we need to stand for it, whether or not it sounds good to the world. Agreed on that point.

I think the reaction in this thread focused more on the tone of the message than the message itself. We don't need to tone down the message of the Bible, but we need to make sure we don't make it more offensive than the truth requires. We need to make sure that love is our priority (Col 3:16). </font>[/QUOTE]*** Moderator's note ***

I am quoting here a post by Stefan---in that---this is the message behind the whole theme of the tread. I have "washed" a lot of insults down the tube on this thread---and it is my prayer that we will each show kindness and grace toward each other from this point on.

Good post, Stefan!

Bro. David

 

[StefanM]

The reference should actually be Col 3:14. . . I goofed!

 

[fatbacker]

This is my last post on this thread. However I would like to tell everyone that I never attacked Marcos. I came right out and asked him if he was saved and don't think that was judging him by asking him. I also said, even though the over zealous moderator deleted it, assuming you are saved. Never did I say he was not.

And whether or not you all like what I said I think Marcos got my point since he did post a response to what I said. If he is faced with having to determine the whole Christ like legitimacy of a huge church that early on in his walk then I don't think my words were that wrong. Marcos will do one of two things he will either double up on his reading like he said he would and find out first hand from the bible what he needs to know or he will just let it all go and be irritated with me as an over bearing christian. I think he will go for the former and not the later since I think he really wants to know. Why don't you all email him and ask him what he thinks of my post!! I have time after time to both christians and non christians been very straight forward directly challenging on certain issues and have made some people instantly mad. However, MOST not all have at some point either admitted I was right and some have been glad I said it like it needed to be said. I have also had people tell me that they did not like what I said even though they knew it was true. If Marco will read his bible and find the truths he needs to find in that book more so then on any forum then I have done what I was supposed to do and it will be one more bible knowledgeable christian who knows what God says is good and evil added to this much needy world.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Well fb let's assume I'm turning your reply back on you. Are you being attacked by a statement that has 3 ***Pesonal insult removed*** interjections. How would you take this if you were a new Christian? Discouraging new Christians is one of the most despicable things I can think of other than posing as one yourself.

My first question to you is, are you a christian or not?

I have full intentions of being straight forward in this post assuming you are a born again, Christ following christian.

**Personal insult removed**

**Personal insult removed**Anyone who would go to a church like that and remain there has to be totally decieved by satan or is just plain ignorant.

If I seem harsh then oh well ***Pesonal insult removed***

If you are just posting hear to see what kind of response you would get for a question like that then as soon as you get done reading this post you need to immediately repent for your sins and beg God's forgiveness and then maybe you will have the answer to your own question.

 

[Brother Ian]

Marco,

I would suggest you study the book of John. That provides some good foundational truths of Scripture. 1 John is an excellent source to find out what you can KNOW about your salvation.

FB, if you study your Scriptures, Jesus dealt with believers in a loving manner. Yes he was bold and direct, but he spoke "the truth in love" just as He commanded us to do.

 

[shannonL]

Marco,

Compare the Canadian church's statement of faith or creed whatever they call it with Scripture. In doing so ask God the Holy Spirit to illuminate your mind as you divide God's word. It is there you will find your answer.
Personally , I believe a church like that is all on its own because God was pushed out a long time ago.
Be encouraged though. The fact that you are asking questions is evident that God is at work in your life.

Fatbacker, Dude being a southern boy I just gotta say I love your nickname man. Your also gonna find out on this board that quite a few folk would have had a hard time living in the days of the first century church. That is because being bold to them is old school. It doesn't work with people today. Funny the book of Acts is full of a bunch of bold individuals who cut it pretty straight. Paul being the leader of the whole crowd.
ON the BB though you have guys like Gold Dragon who knows that the church Marcos speaks of is rank liberal but he is going to do his best to point out their positives as miniscule as they might be.Why does He do this? Does it make him more spiritual? Are guys like him more understanding and tolerent? Do they posess a higher intelect that gives them the ability to understand the nuances of Scripture that other low brow christians just don't seem to get? In today's christian society it is the vanilla,beige christian that gets applauded by the mainstream not the sold out, all or nothing kind of guy.
I just love those guys and gals that deny the fact that Gen 1-11 is literal. They want to debate issues that are not up for debate such as : Is it a sin to be a homosexual or just if your a practicing homosexual. Just junk like that you all know what I'm talking about.
I would rather be a flaming, bleeding heart liberal than a moderate. Which this board is full of. At least you know what your dealing with then. With so called moderates they pride themselves in not being able to be nailed down on anything. Pathetic.