A Command To Sobriety!

According to God's Word, the Son of God did drink alcoholic wine.

I can post "Yes, He did" for every one of your "No, He didn't". But that wouldn't accomplish anything.

So I have made my point and proven it earlier in this thread. Your refusal, SFIC, to accept reality does not change reality.

I see nothing further to be accomplished by my continued participation in this thread.

May God bless you richly, SFIC. :godisgood:

 

Some people refuse to believe the Bible. They just believe what they are told first. They treat the person telling them as God.

Remember people usually talk about what they fear most. Too many people are consumed with the peripheral issues rather than the heart issues.

I have seen alcoholics, prostitutes and drug addicts cured and have never brought it up to them. When the Holy Spirit invades a person's life many things are no longer an issue. Too many preachers spend their time talking to the choir when they should be winning people to Christ. I just remember what Jesus was accused of also and keep moving.

The issue is not the peripheral issues that tend to get Christians sidetracked but answering the question "Who's living for Jesus Christ because of your life. Satan likes to get the Christian busy, busy, busy and not producing. Satan uses many Christians today by getting them away from the real issues.

 

Your thoughts are somethiung being taught since prohibition. Are those who have gone before that time wrong? Was Spurgeon wrong when he drank ale?

Study Baptist history and you will see that before prohibition Baptists used a common cup with wine in it. Many Baptisst in other countries still use wine. So according to you they are all wet and wrong while you are absolutely so sure you are right. If God's peope never drank wine then why did Jesus talk about putting new wine in old wine skins in a parable? Why would he have used something they could not identify with? Are you saying he was stupid and did not know how to teach them properly? In every case Jesus adressed the people he was speaking to on the basis of what they found credible and had in common.

Mt. 9:17, "Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."

When did you become the judge of the world?

Remember Jesus did not call the righteous--the Pharisees.

I wonder why Jesus was labelled a drunkard and glutton if he would have not been eating or drinking?

Mt. 9:10-13, “Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?" But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. "But go and learn what this means: `I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Mt. 11:19, “"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

 

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia pages 694-700

I. TERMS.

1. Wine:
(1) ˆyIy’ (yayin), apparently from a non-Tsere root allied to Greek (w)oinos, Latin vinum, etc. This is the usual word for “wine” and is found 141 times in Massoretic Text.
(2) rm,j, [chemer], perhaps “foaming” (<053214>Deuteronomy 32:14 and Massoretic Text <232702>Isaiah 27:2 (but see the English Revised Version margin)); Aramaic rm”j} [chamar] (Ezr 6:9; 7:22; <270501>Daniel 5:1,2,4,23).
(3) vwOryTi [tirosh]. Properly this is the fresh grape juice (called also hr,v]mi [mishreh], <040603>Numbers 6:3), even when still in the grape (<236508>Isaiah 65:8). But unfermented grape juice is a very difficult thing to keep without the aid of modern antiseptic precautions, and its
preservation in the warm and not over-cleanly conditions of ancient Palestine was impossible. Consequently, tirosh came to mean wine that was not fully aged (although with full intoxicating properties (<070913>Judges 9:13; <280411>Hosea 4:11; compare <441113>Acts 11:13)) or wine when considered specifically as the product of grapes (<051217>Deuteronomy 12:17; 18:4, etc.). The Septuagint always (except <236508>Isaiah 65:8; <280411>Hosea 4:11) translates by oinos and the Targums by chamar. the King James Version has “wine” 26 times, “new wine” 11 times, “sweet wine” in <330615>Micah 6:15; the Revised Version (British and American) “vintage” in <041812>Numbers 18:12; <330615>Micah 6:15 (with the same change in <161037>Nehemiah 10:37,39 the Revised Version margin; <236208>Isaiah 62:8 the English Revised Version margin). Otherwise the
English Revised Version has left the King James Version unchanged, while the American Standard Revised Version uses “new wine” throughout.

(4) Two apparently poetic words are sysi[; [`acic] (the Revised Version (British and American) “sweet wine,” <234926>Isaiah 49:26; Am 9:13; <290105>Joel 1:5; 3:18, “juice”; <220802>Song of Solomon 8:2), and ab,so [cobhe]’ (“wine,” <230122>Isaiah 1:22; “drink,” <280418>Hosea 4:18 (margin “carouse”); <340110>Nahum 1:10).

(5) For spiced wine three words occur: _]s,m, [mecekh], <197508>Psalm 75:8 (English Versions of the Bible “mixture”); _]s;m]mi [mimcakh], <202330>Proverbs 23:30 (“mixed wine”); <236511>Isaiah 65:11 (the Revised Version (British and American) “mingled wine”); gz<m, [mezegh],
<220702>Song of Solomon 7:2 (the Revised Version (British and American) “mingled wine”); compare also jq”r,h; ˆyIy’ [yayin hareqach], <220802>Song of Solomon 8:2 (“spiced wine”).

(6) [mamethaqqim], literally, “sweet,” <160810>Nehemiah 8:10.

(7) rk;ve [shekhar] (22 times), translated “strong drink” in English Versions of the Bible. [Shekhar] appears to mean “intoxicating drink” of any sort and in <042807>Numbers 28:7 is certainly simply “wine” (compare also its use in parallelism to “wine” in <230511>Isaiah 5:11,22,
etc.). In certain passages (<031009>Leviticus 10:9; <040603>Numbers 6:3; <090115>1 Samuel 1:15, etc.), however, it is distinguished from “wine,” and the meaning is not quite certain. But it would seem to mean “drink not made from grapes.” Of such only pomegranate wine is named in the
Bible (<220802>Song of Solomon 8:2), but a variety of such preparations
(made from apples, quinces, dates, barley, etc.) were known to the ancients and must have been used in Palestine also. The translation “strong drink” is unfortunate, for it suggests “distilled liquor,” “brandy,” which is hardly in point.
See DRINK, STRONG.

(8) In the Apocrypha and New Testament “wine” represents [oi+nov, oinos], with certain compounds, except in <440213>Acts 2:13, where the Greek is [gleu~kov, gleukos], “sweet,” English Versions of the Bible “new wine.”
See also BLOOD; DRINK; FLAGON; FRUIT; HONEY.

2. Wine Press:
(1) Properly speaking, the actual wine press was called tG’ [gath] (<070611>Judges 6:11, etc.), and the receiving vat (“fat”) bq,y< [yeqebh] (<041827>Numbers 18:27, etc.), but the names were interchangeable to some degree (<231610>Isaiah 16:10; <182411>Job 24:11; compare <230502>Isaiah 5:2, the Revised Version (British and American) text and margin) and either could be used
for the whole apparatus (see GATH and compare <070725>Judges 7:25; Zec 14:10). In <236303>Isaiah 63:3 the Hebrew has hr:WP [purah], “wine trough” a word found also in <370216>Haggai 2:16 where it seems to be a gloss (so, apparently, the American Standard Revised Version).
(2) In the Apocrypha (Sirach 33:16) and in the New Testament 21:33; Revelation 14:19,20 (twice); 19:15) “winepress” is [lhno>v, lenos]; in <411201>Mark 12:1 [uJpolh>nion, hupolenion], by which only the receiving vat seems to be meant (the Revised Version (British and American) a pit for a winepress”).

II. WINE-MAKING.

1. The Vintage:
For the care of the vine, its distribution, different varieties, etc., see VINE. The ripening of the grapes took place as early as June in the Jordan valley, but on the coast not until August, while in the hills it was delayed until September. In whatever month, however, the coming of the vintage was the signal for the villagers to leave their homes in a body and to encamp in
booths erected in the vineyards, so that the work might be carried on without interruption. See TABERNACLES, FEAST OF. It was the great holiday season of the year and the joy of the vintage was proverbial (<231610>Isaiah 16:10; <242530>Jeremiah 25:30; 48:33; compare <070927>Judges 9:27), and fragments of vintage songs seem to be preserved in <232702>Isaiah 27:2; 65:8. The grapes were gathered usually by cutting off the clusters (see SICKLE), and were carried to the press in baskets.

2. Wine Presses:
Many of the ancient wine presses remain to the present day. Ordinarily they consisted of two rectangular or circular excavations, hewn (<230502>Isaiah 5:2) in the solid rock to a depth of 2 or 3 feet. Where possible one was always higher than the other and they were connected by a pipe or channel. Their size, of course, varied greatly, but the upper vat was always wider and
shallower than the lower and was the press proper, into which the grapes were thrown, to be crushed by the feet of the treaders (<236301>Isaiah 63:1-3, etc.). The juice flowed down through the pipe into the lower vat, from which it was removed into jars (<370216>Haggai 2:16) or where it was allowed to remain during the first fermentation.

Many modifications of this form of the press are found. Where there was no rock close to the surface, the vats were dug in the earth and lined with stonework or cement, covered with pitch. Or the pressvat might be built up out of any material (wood was much used in Egypt), and from it the juice could be conducted into a sunken receptacle or into jars. Not infrequently a
third (rarely a fourth) vat might be added between the other two, in which a partial settling and straining could take place. Wooden beams are often used either to finish the pressing or to perform the whole operation, and holes into which the ends of these beams fitted can still be seen. A square of wood attached to the beam bore down on the pile of grapes, while the
free end of the beam was heavily weighted. In the simpler presses the final result was obtained by piling stones on the mass that remained after the treaders had finished their work.

3. Grading:
It is a general principle of wine-making (compare that “the less the pressure the better the product”; therefore the liquid that flowed at the beginning of the process, especially that produced by the mere weight of the grapes themselves when piled in heaps, was carefully kept separate from that which was obtained only under heavy pressure. A still lower
grade was made by adding water to the final refuse the mixture to ferment. Possibly this last concoction is sometimes meant by the word “vinegar” ([chomets]).

4. Fermentation:
In the climate of Palestine fermentation begins almost immediately, frequently on the same day for juice pressed out in the morning, but never later than the next day. At first a slight foam appears on the surface of the liquid, and from that moment, according to Jewish tradition, it is liable to the wine-tithe (Ma`aseroth 1 7). The action rapidly becomes more violent, and while it is in progress the liquid must be kept in jars or in a vat, for it would burst even the newest and strongest of wine-skins (<183219>Job 32:19). Within about a week this violent fermentation subsides, and the wine is transferred to other jars or strong wine-skins (<410222>Mark 2:22 and
parallel’s), in which it undergoes the secondary fermentation. At the bottom of the receptacles collects the heavier matter or “lees” (μyrIm;v] [shemarim], <197508>Psalm 75:8 (“dregs”); <244811>Jeremiah 48:11; <360112>Zephaniah 1:12 in <232506>Isaiah 25:6 the word is used for the wine as well), from which the “wines on the lees” gather strength and flavor. At the end of 40 days it was regarded as properly “wine” and could be offered as a drink offering (`Edhuyyoth 6 1). The practice after this point seems to have varied, no doubt depending on the sort of wine that was
being made. Certain kinds were left undisturbed to age “on their lees” and were thought to be all the better for so doing, but before they were used it was necessary to strain them very carefully. So <232506>Isaiah 25:6, `A feast of wine aged on the lees, thoroughly strained.’ But usually leaving the wine in the fermentation vessels interfered with its improvement or caused it to degenerate. So at the end of 40 days it was drawn off into other jars (for storage, <132727>1 Chronicles 27:27, etc.) or wine-skins (for transportation, <060904>Joshua 9:4, etc.). So <244811>Jeremiah 48:11: `Moab has been undisturbed from his youth, and he has rested on his lees and has not been emptied from vessel to vessel. .... Therefore his flavor remains unchanged (or “becomes insipid”) and his scent is unimproved (or “lacks freshness”)’; compare <360112>Zephaniah 1:12.

 

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia pages 694-700 (cont'd)

5. Storage:
Jars were tightly sealed with caps covered with pitch. The very close sealing needed to preserve sparkling wines, however, was unknown to the Hebrews, and in consequence (and for other reasons) such wines were not used. Hence, in <197508>Psalm 75:8, “The wine foameth,” the allusion must be to very new wine whose fermentation had not yet subsided, if indeed, the translation is not wrong (the Revised Version margin “The wine is red”). The superiority of old wine to new was acknowledged by the Hebrews, in common with the rest of the world (Sirach 9:10; <420539>Luke 5:39), but in the wines of Palestine acetous fermentation, changing the wine into vinegar, was likely to occur at any time. Three years was about the longest time for
which such wines could be kept, and “old wine” meant only wines that had been, stored for a year or more (Bab. Bath. 6 3).
See also CRAFTS, II, 19.

III. USE OF WINE.

1. Mixed Wine:
In Old Testament times wine was drunk undiluted, and wine mixed with water was thought to be ruined (<230122>Isaiah 1:22). The “mixed” or “mingled wines” (see I, 1, (5), above) were prepared with aromatic herbs of various sorts and some of these compounds, used throughout the ancient world, were highly intoxicating (<230522>Isaiah 5:22). Wine mixed with myrrh was stupefying and an anesthetic (<411523>Mark 15:23). At a later period, however, the Greek use of diluted wines had attained such sway that the writer of 2 Maccabees speaks (15:39) of undiluted wine as “distasteful” (polemion). This dilution is so normal in the following centuries that the Mishna can
take it for granted and, indeed, R. Eliezer even forbade saying the tableblessing over undiluted wine (Berakhoth 7 5). The proportion of water was large, only one-third or one-fourth of the total mixture being wine (Niddah 2 7; Pesachim 108b).

NOTE.
The wine of the Last Supper, accordingly, may be described in modern terms as a sweet, red, fermented wine, rather highly diluted. As it was no doubt the ordinary wine of commerce, there is no reason to suppose that it was particularly “pure.”
2. Wine-Drinkinig:
Throughout the Old Testament, wine is regarded as a necessity of life and in no way as a mere luxury. It was a necessary part of even the simplest meal (<011418>Genesis 14:18; <071919>Judges 19:19; <091620>1 Samuel 16:20; <235501>Isaiah 55:1, etc.), was an indispensable provision for a fortress (<141111>2 Chronicles 11:11), and was drunk by all classes and all ages, even by the very young
(<250212>Lamentations 2:12; Zec 9:17). “Wine” is bracketed with “grain” as a basic staple (<012728>Genesis 27:28, etc.), and the failure of the winecrop or its destruction by foreigners was a terrible calamity (<052830>Deuteronomy 28:30,39; <236208>Isaiah 62:8; 65:21; <330615>Micah 6:15; <360113>Zephaniah 1:13, etc.). On the other hand, abundance of wine was a special token of God’s
blessing (<012728>Genesis 27:28; <050713>Deuteronomy 7:13; Am 9:14, etc.), and extraordinary abundance would be a token of the Messianic age (Am 9:13; <290318>Joel 3:18; Zec 9:17). A moderate “gladdening of the heart” through wine was not looked upon as at all reprehensible (<101328>2 Samuel 13:28; <170110>Esther 1:10; <19A415>Psalm 104:15; <210907>Ecclesiastes 9:7; 10:19; Zec 9:15; 10:7), and while <070913>Judges 9:13 represented a mere verbal remnant of a long-obsolete concept, yet the idea contained in the verse was not thought shocking. “Drink offerings,” indeed, were of course a part of the prescribed ritual (<032313>Leviticus 23:13, etc.; see SACRIFICE), and a store of wine was kept in the temple (tabernacle) to insure their performance (<130929>1
Chronicles 9:29). Even in later and much more moderate times, Sirach writes the laudation of wine in 31:27, and the writer of 2 Maccabees (see above) objects as strongly to pure water as he does to pure wine. Christ adapted Himself to Jewish customs (<401119>Matthew 11:19 parallel <420734>Luke 7:34; <422218>Luke 22:18), and exegetes usually suppose that the celebrated
verse <540523>1 Timothy 5:23 is meant as a safeguard against ascetic (Gnostic?) dualism, as well as to give medical advice.

On the temporal conditioning of the Biblical customs, the uncompromising opposition of the Bible to excess, and the non-applicability of the ancient
attitude to the totally different modern conditions, see DRUNKENNESS.
The figurative uses of wine are very numerous, but are for the most part
fairly obvious. Those offering difficulty have been discussed in the course
of the article. For wine in its commercial aspect see TRADE.
Burton Scott Easton

 

How did it corrupt it?

If you are a Baptist then certainly you would have enough integrity and honesty to at least investigate Baptist history.

 

Is this better? "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

 

The church W.A. Criswell pastored (FBC, Dallas) has a history of using a common cup and wine.

I have yet to find one person of your persuasion who will honestly deal with Baptist history today, in the past and around the world. They are either all wrong or all right. Can't have it both ways. It's just that simple.

 

Where did I ever use the word "children' In my original quote. The NASU 95 does use "deeds."

 

I can appreciate your desire to exercise such discipline for the Lord standingfirminChrist but I honestly have a great deal of trouble believing that such is a 'commandment'.

After reading the account of the wedding at Cana one might legitimately wonder why, if Jesus turned water into grape juice, John goes out of his way to quote the headwaiter's remarks: "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one"? No matter how freely one drinks grape juice, it won't impair one's ability to discern between good and inferior grades.

I'm sorry I don't believe your exercise of such discipline is a binding commandment on Christians. I believe you are using the Old Testament Law to impose a dietary discipline which isn't binding.

Would you suggest that we should not eat pork as well?

 

Wow--what does eating pork have to do with drinking alcohol? Drinking alcohol or not drinking alcohol has NOTHING to do with DIETARY discipline--it has EVERYTHING to do with living a godly, separated life and NOT causing another weaker brother or sister to stumble.