A compassionate plea to Calvinists

[Winman]

Are you saying that any here holding to Calvinism, or to the Doctrines of Grace in salvation, are holding to a false premise, and so none of us might even actually be saved?

the bible promises that we can KNOW that we have eternal life, so you are saying God lied to me there?

You mean after 5 years you don't realize that I believe Calvinism is false doctrine?

You really are very slow to catch on aren't you?

As far as being saved, that is not my call. Only God knows who is saved and who is not.

And you seem not to understand your own doctrine. If Limited Atonement is true, then God did not promise YOU anything, or at least there is no way to know it on this side of eternity.

If Limited Atonement is true, then Jesus only died for a few elect persons. You might be one of the elect, or you might not. The higher probability is that you are not.

How can a person believe a complete uncertainty? What do you believe? That Jesus MIGHT have died for you?

Peter sank when he doubted.

 

[Iconoclast]

You do not even know how to use the quote feature, even though you have been here for years, and you think you should instruct others?

What part of "if any man of you" offer a sacrifice unto the Lord, he shall offer it of "his own voluntary will" and "it will be accepted to make atonement for him" do you not understand?

Is this too difficult for you to understand? Do you have to consult your many Reformed theologians to explain this very simple language to you? Are you afraid to believe what it obviously and plainly says to you personally?

It must be very scary to be a Calvinist and afraid to think for yourself.

You have been told it was voluntary....not under obligation to the law...if you had comprehension you would get it...but you lack......you do this with all the verses.

 

[Winman]

You have been told it was voluntary....not under obligation to the law...if you had comprehension you would get it...but you lack......you do this with all the verses.

Nevertheless, this scripture absolutely refutes Total Inability, and Limited Atonement as well.

Calvinism teaches that no man has the ability to truly worship God unless he is first regenerated by the Spirit.

This scripture says that "If" (showing option), "any man of you" (universal) were to offer an offering, he was to do it of "his own voluntary will". Now that is FREE WILL my friend, you can't get around it. And it was the man's free will, he didn't have to be zapped to be willing.

And not only could "any man" among the Jews give a free will offering, God said he would accept that offering to make atonement for that man. So there goes Limited Atonement.

Now, you don't like this scripture, and that is easy to see why, but the scriptures show any man can choose to worship God, and if he does so he will be accepted.

It makes not one iota difference that this offering was not required by law. In fact, that argues even more forcibly that it was truly a free will offering.

But you would rather listen to your so-called "scholars" than the word of God.

 

[Baptist4life]

Been reading this thread with interest. While I don't agree with Winman on everything (original sin), I have to say, if a totally unbiased person were to read this thread, Winman is making the rest of you look ridiculous. Your Calvinistic beliefs just fall very short compared to Scripture.
As my s/n indicates, I've attended Baptist churches all my life, and I've never heard Calvinism preached at any of them. IMHO, Calvinism makes absolutely no sense when compared to Scripture. A Baptist/Calvinist is an oxymoron. The arrogance/attitude of Calvinists never ceases to sadden me.

I'll step back, and continue to read.

 

[Yeshua1]

Been reading this thread with interest. While I don't agree with Winman on everything (original sin), I have to say, if a totally unbiased person were to read this thread, Winman is making the rest of you look ridiculous. Your Calvinistic beliefs just fall very short compared to Scripture.
As my s/n indicates, I've attended Baptist churches all my life, and I've never heard Calvinism preached at any of them. IMHO, Calvinism makes absolutely no sense when compared to Scripture. A Baptist/Calvinist is an oxymoron. The arrogance/attitude of Calvinists never ceases to sadden me.

I'll step back, and continue to read.

he denies the truth of all being dead in Adam, he denies that we are in a strayed form with God from birth, he denies that we do not have the spiritual means to freely come to Christ by own accord, and he pretty much denies a real Calvinist can be saved, holding to "heresy", did I miss something here?

 

[Baptist4life]

.....did I miss something here?

Yes, you missed just how WRONG Calvinism is! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

he denies the truth of all being dead in Adam, he denies that we are in a strayed form with God from birth, he denies that we do not have the spiritual means to freely come to Christ by own accord, and he pretty much denies a real Calvinist can be saved, holding to "heresy", did I miss something here?

What of John the Baptist? Was he strayed from birth?

 

[Winman]

Been reading this thread with interest. While I don't agree with Winman on everything (original sin), I have to say, if a totally unbiased person were to read this thread, Winman is making the rest of you look ridiculous. Your Calvinistic beliefs just fall very short compared to Scripture.
As my s/n indicates, I've attended Baptist churches all my life, and I've never heard Calvinism preached at any of them. IMHO, Calvinism makes absolutely no sense when compared to Scripture. A Baptist/Calvinist is an oxymoron. The arrogance/attitude of Calvinists never ceases to sadden me.

I'll step back, and continue to read.

It's not difficult to make Calvinism look ridiculous, but it is impossible to get any Calvinist to admit it.

 

[The Biblicist]

Nevertheless, this scripture absolutely refutes Total Inability, .

That is simply false! John 6:44 clearly and explicitly teaches total inability or else there was no need for Jesus to say "except" the Father intervenes by drawing. The text says "NO MAN" not "SOME" not "MANY" but not "Jews" but not "some Jews" but "NO MAN." No man "can" represents the Greek term "dunamai" which refers to ability - thus universal inaiblity! Universal inabillity to do what? "No man can COME TO ME." In context, Jesus has already defined who comes to Christ - only those FIRST "given" by the Father to the Son and EVERY SOLITARY ONE GIVEN does in fact come and NONE are lost. Coming to Christ in context is indisputably the ability to believe in him and that is precisely how Jesus applies it John 6:64-65 in explaining why some did not "believe" BECAUSE they had not been "given" or "drawn" by the Father. This is as clear as the nose on your face but you willfuly and intentionally explain away the obvious truth. There is no recourse for your unwillingness to handle the text honestly and truthly but to condemn your willful ignorance.

 

[Winman]

That is simply false! John 6:44 clearly and explicitly teaches total inability or else there was no need for Jesus to say "except" the Father intervenes by drawing. The text says "NO MAN" not "SOME" not "MANY" but not "Jews" but not "some Jews" but "NO MAN." No man "can" represents the Greek term "dunamai" which refers to ability - thus universal inaiblity! Universal inabillity to do what? "No man can COME TO ME." In context, Jesus has already defined who comes to Christ - only those FIRST "given" by the Father to the Son and EVERY SOLITARY ONE GIVEN does in fact come and NONE are lost. Coming to Christ in context is indisputably the ability to believe in him and that is precisely how Jesus applies it John 6:64-65 in explaining why some did not "believe" BECAUSE they had not been "given" or "drawn" by the Father. This is as clear as the nose on your face but you willfuly and intentionally explain away the obvious truth. There is no recourse for your unwillingness to handle the text honestly and truthly but to condemn your willful ignorance.

There is a kind of inability. It is not the inability to believe.

Jhn 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Jesus is speaking to persons who have not believed on him here, and he plainly says they "believe in God".

That is as plain as it gets, men have the ability to believe in God. But that will not save you, you must believe on Jesus to be saved. Nevertheless, this scripute shows unregenerated unbelievers have the ability to believe.

No, our inability is due to ignorance. We are not born knowing the gospel, therefore we cannot believe on Jesus. We must hear of Jesus to believe on him, and someone must be sent to preach the gospel to hear of him.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how a person can believe on Jesus unless he has been regenerated? NO. Does he ask how a person can hear unless regenerated? NO.

Paul simply implies a person must hear of Jesus to believe on him, and a preacher must be sent so that he can hear of Jesus.

The word of God is what makes a person able to believe and be saved.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Did Paul tell Timothy he had to be regenerated to be saved? NOPE, he said that from a child Timothy had KNOWN the scriptures, which were ABLE to make him WISE unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

Calvinism is nothing but a mystical religion received from the RCC. It is smoke, and mystery, and incantations, superstition, MAGIC.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



Be careful what you see and hear.

 

[The Biblicist]

There is a kind of inability. It is not the inability to believe.

First you side step the complete text and the evidences placed before you.

Second, you have the audacity to claim that John 14:1 is not directed toward believers when in fact the context shows it is the apostles he is addressing who believed upon him over three years ago!!!

Third, you then change the subject from clear statements of universal inabilty to the ordained means God uses to save with Romans 10:14.

This is the kind of nonsense one must endure in a discussion with you on this subject - jump,change subjects, pit scripture against scripture. Ok, I have said what I said, time to move on.

 

[evangelist6589]

It's not difficult to make Calvinism look ridiculous, but it is impossible to get any Calvinist to admit it.

WinMan answer this question.

The doctrine of Justification. Is it by works or faith? Explain your answer in detail.

 

[Winman]

WinMan answer this question.

The doctrine of Justification. Is it by works or faith? Explain your answer in detail.

Faith, we are justified by faith. Why do you want me to make it detailed when the scriptures make it very simple?

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Now, let me ask you a question, do we have to obey the law to be justified?

 

[Winman]

First you side step the complete text and the evidences placed before you.

Look who's talking.

Second, you have the audacity to claim that John 14:1 is not directed toward believers when in fact the context shows it is the apostles he is addressing who believed upon him over three years ago!!!

Fair enough, a good objection, although I would remind you this was before the disciples received the Spirit, yet they were clearly able to believe.

But let's look at known unbelievers, could they believe?

Jhn 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Jesus said of these persons, unless they see a sign they will not believe. This implies if they saw a sign they would believe. Correct?? So, they had the ability to believe.

Did Jesus say, Except ye be regenerated, ye cannot believe? NOPE.

Third, you then change the subject from clear statements of universal inabilty to the ordained means God uses to save with Romans 10:14.

If regeneration is required to believe, you would have to believe that Paul completely forgot to mention it in a verse where he directly addresses ABILITY to believe in Jesus!

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Let's isolate that little phrase to make sure you understand;

and how shall they believe in him

OK, Babelist, read that again, and again, and again, and again, until it finally sinks in.

What is Paul asking here? He is asking HOW a person can believe in Jesus. That is addressing ABILITY Babelist.

Does Paul imply a person must be regenerated to believe in Jesus? NO. It just skipped his mind, he forgot, he didn't think it was important to mention it here, he had other things on his mind, he got distracted, etc...

Give me a break. If there was EVER a place in all the Bible to tell us a person must be regenerated to believe, THIS is that place.

Paul completely forgets to mention it. And your WHOLE theology is based on this. Wow.

This is the kind of nonsense one must endure in a discussion with you on this subject - jump,change subjects, pit scripture against scripture. Ok, I have said what I said, time to move on.

I'll tell you what is nonsense Babelist, basing your whole theology, and your very soul on something that is NEVER said in scripture. NOT ONCE.

THAT is nonsense.

 

[The Biblicist]

Look who's talking.



Fair enough, a good objection, although I would remind you this was before the disciples received the Spirit, yet they were clearly able to believe.

But let's look at known unbelievers, could they believe?

Jhn 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Jesus said of these persons, unless they see a sign they will not believe. This implies if they saw a sign they would believe. Correct?? So, they had the ability to believe.

Did Jesus say, Except ye be regenerated, ye cannot believe? NOPE.




If regeneration is required to believe, you would have to believe that Paul completely forgot to mention it in a verse where he directly addresses ABILITY to believe in Jesus!

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Let's isolate that little phrase to make sure you understand;

and how shall they believe in him

OK, Babelist, read that again, and again, and again, and again, until it finally sinks in.

What is Paul asking here? He is asking HOW a person can believe in Jesus. That is addressing ABILITY Babelist.

Does Paul imply a person must be regenerated to believe in Jesus? NO. It just skipped his mind, he forgot, he didn't think it was important to mention it here, he had other things on his mind, he got distracted, etc...

Give me a break. If there was EVER a place in all the Bible to tell us a person must be regenerated to believe, THIS is that place.

Paul completely forgets to mention it. And your WHOLE theology is based on this. Wow.




I'll tell you what is nonsense Babelist, basing your whole theology, and your very soul on something that is NEVER said in scripture. NOT ONCE.

THAT is nonsense.

Pointless to make any response to such a mindset.

 

[Iconoclast]

Pointless to make any response to such a mindset.

:applause::applause::applause: yes it is.....:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Pointless to make any response to such a mindset.

Translation- I'm beat. :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

:applause::applause::applause: yes it is.....:thumbs:

Translation- Yeah, you're beat, but I'll jump in and run interference.

 

[The Biblicist]

Translation- I'm beat. :thumbs:

You have got to be kidding? "beat"??? All you have done is disregard what was stated, jumped, pitted, dodged and ignored what was placed squarely before you. You think just giving any kind of answer is a victory. I am simply tired of dealing with a mindset that is blind and arrogant.

 

[convicted1]

You have got to be kidding? "beat"??? All you have done is disregard what was stated, jumped, pitted, dodged and ignored what was placed squarely before you. You think just giving any kind of answer is a victory. I am simply tired of dealing with a mindset that is blind and arrogant.

No, he's NOT kidding, unfortunately....:tear: