Thank you sir.
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A Death Blow to Full (Hyper) Preterism
- Thread starter John of Japan
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Lazarus was not ressurected but ressusitated and died again, just as the others Jesus raised from the dead.
Just as this man died again, 2 Kings 13:20 And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.
21And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
Acts 20: 9And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
12And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
This man was ressusitated.
Matthew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
These we aren't told what happened to them after they came out of the grave, not sure if they were ressucetated or ressurected. If ressurected then their bodies would have gone to heaven. If ressucitated then they would have died again physically. It depends how thet were raised from the grave.
Oh most of us
The Saints don't get physical bodies--they are spirtual in their glorified body. Nothing wrong with that. You can take comfort in God's plan for glorified bodies and that you won't have the aches and pains of a physical body. Don't you see that God in his infinite wisdom has improved upon the shortcomings of a physical body.
Christ rose with a physical body because he was on earth and had unfinished business here to conclude. You won't have any unfinished business left to conclude on earth so you won't need a physical body. There is a difference between Jesus and yourself.
Probably most everybody in the preterist camp holds similar beliefs as do the leaders.
You may disagree if you wish, but we feel very anchored in the bible with these beliefs. We draw our conclusions from the bible not from the confessions, ancient scholars, or what passes as the pop theology of the day.
1 Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. ESV
The Saints don't get physical bodies--they are spirtual in their glorified body. Nothing wrong with that. You can take comfort in God's plan for glorified bodies and that you won't have the aches and pains of a physical body. Don't you see that God in his infinite wisdom has improved upon the shortcomings of a physical body.
Christ rose with a physical body because he was on earth and had unfinished business here to conclude. You won't have any unfinished business left to conclude on earth so you won't need a physical body. There is a difference between Jesus and yourself.
Probably most everybody in the preterist camp holds similar beliefs as do the leaders.
You may disagree if you wish, but we feel very anchored in the bible with these beliefs. We draw our conclusions from the bible not from the confessions, ancient scholars, or what passes as the pop theology of the day.
1 Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. ESV
As was just pointed out earlier, you have taken this verse out of context, perhaps misread it, and have not understood it properly.
flesh and blood cannot INHERIT the kingdom of God.
It does not say enter; it says inherit. There is a difference between the two words.
Jesus, in the flesh, entered heaven; so did Elijah, and many others.
An Excellent Question
An excellent question and a very simple one to answer.
The greek term used here is aer which means air in the sense of the spirtual realm. If it had meant the sky or atmosphere it would have used the greek term ouranos.
Also, notice how the term aer is consistent with the balance of the bible which is about spirtual matters. The bible is not about science or the atmosphere or physical matters.
In short we will be caught up into the same spirtual realm as God--it is not suggesting that we will fly up into the sky to meet Jesus.
When we die (since we are dying after Christ's return in 70 AD) we shed our physical body and our spirtual, glorified body is caught up in the same spirtual realm as God. I don't think our focus should be on the direction as in up, but in a different dimension--a spirtual one.
The saints who died before Christ finished his work would have waited in Sheol for end of the old Covenant which just happened to be in 70 AD and the New Covenant coming into its own when the O.C. was done with at the time of the destruction of the O.C. temple signifying its complete and total end. There is no in between covenant. When the Old goes away the new comes into its own. When Christ returned those saints waiting in Sheol (or where ever such persons wait) would have been instantly transferred or caught up to use the phrase into the same spirtual realm as God. Since we will die after Christ finished his work we don't have to wait we go straight into the presence of God. Lucky us.
A lot of the confusion on this topic results from reading the bible as if it were as an English document instead of realizing the New Testament is Jewish in its mindset, Koine Greek in its writing, and then translated into English. There is plenty of opportunity for a word here or phrase here or there to be misunderstood if one approaches it as if the original language were English.
Certainly the main points are stated enough times that we understand them like saved through grace or that Christ rose from the grave (yes in the flesh), but there is still opportunity to misunderstand a word here or there without careful study.
I had the same question as you did--I don't think you need to be a preterist to be in agreement with this line of thought by any means--I was premil dispie when I was taught it.
I'm sure there are premils on this board who would consider it heresy, but fortunately they don't get to say what is taught in baptist churches and believed by baptists of all eschatological views.
An excellent question and a very simple one to answer.
The greek term used here is aer which means air in the sense of the spirtual realm. If it had meant the sky or atmosphere it would have used the greek term ouranos.
Also, notice how the term aer is consistent with the balance of the bible which is about spirtual matters. The bible is not about science or the atmosphere or physical matters.
In short we will be caught up into the same spirtual realm as God--it is not suggesting that we will fly up into the sky to meet Jesus.
When we die (since we are dying after Christ's return in 70 AD) we shed our physical body and our spirtual, glorified body is caught up in the same spirtual realm as God. I don't think our focus should be on the direction as in up, but in a different dimension--a spirtual one.
The saints who died before Christ finished his work would have waited in Sheol for end of the old Covenant which just happened to be in 70 AD and the New Covenant coming into its own when the O.C. was done with at the time of the destruction of the O.C. temple signifying its complete and total end. There is no in between covenant. When the Old goes away the new comes into its own. When Christ returned those saints waiting in Sheol (or where ever such persons wait) would have been instantly transferred or caught up to use the phrase into the same spirtual realm as God. Since we will die after Christ finished his work we don't have to wait we go straight into the presence of God. Lucky us.
A lot of the confusion on this topic results from reading the bible as if it were as an English document instead of realizing the New Testament is Jewish in its mindset, Koine Greek in its writing, and then translated into English. There is plenty of opportunity for a word here or phrase here or there to be misunderstood if one approaches it as if the original language were English.
Certainly the main points are stated enough times that we understand them like saved through grace or that Christ rose from the grave (yes in the flesh), but there is still opportunity to misunderstand a word here or there without careful study.
I had the same question as you did--I don't think you need to be a preterist to be in agreement with this line of thought by any means--I was premil dispie when I was taught it.
I'm sure there are premils on this board who would consider it heresy, but fortunately they don't get to say what is taught in baptist churches and believed by baptists of all eschatological views.
convicted1
Guest
I may be misreading you here, but what about our body when it dies? The natural man is sown in the earth, and comes out spiritual when He comes again. Now if this has already happened, then how can our "outer man" take on this change from natural to spiritual, if He has already come again, circa AD70? It makes me think that you believe that there is no resurrection of our bodies that are buried in the ground. Please elaborate further, please?
i am I AM's!!
Willis
This is an incredible myth. How many times did the J.W.'s and the SDA's as well predict the coming of Christ, and fail?
What credible evidence do you have that Christ came in 70 A.D.? Who saw him? Where is the evidence? Was there a Millennial Kingdom that followed? How can you verify this 70 A.D. coming of Christ, or is it all just a myth?
Why don't we agree for you to hold on to your beliefs and i'll hold on to mine
If you wish to twist the bible my good fellow to suit your views by all means know that you have my blessing to torture it to your heart's content, but don't expect me to come along with you.
By dragging Elijah into it you just illustrate further how you have fallen into the same old trap of misunderstanding.
When the bible states that Elijah was taken to heaven you assume that he went home to be with the lord and forget that for the ancient writers there were three levels of heaven.
1. Sky
2. stars
3. Where God dwells
He was taken into the sky not where God lives--how do we know this because the bible tells us in that no one has gone to heaven yet except Christ.
John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Of course philosophically we should know it any way because no unclean sinner can enter into the presence of God and until Christ finishes his atoning work no is clean and therefore can't enter heaven.
Of course you shouldn't let these simple, straight forward biblical truths keep you from your views.
You NEED to cling to the notion of a physical body entering a spiritual realm so you have my blessings to hold on to your beliefs. I don't expect you to come around to my way of thinking till we meet on the other side in our glorified, spiritual bodies.
If you wish to twist the bible my good fellow to suit your views by all means know that you have my blessing to torture it to your heart's content, but don't expect me to come along with you.
By dragging Elijah into it you just illustrate further how you have fallen into the same old trap of misunderstanding.
When the bible states that Elijah was taken to heaven you assume that he went home to be with the lord and forget that for the ancient writers there were three levels of heaven.
1. Sky
2. stars
3. Where God dwells
He was taken into the sky not where God lives--how do we know this because the bible tells us in that no one has gone to heaven yet except Christ.
John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Of course philosophically we should know it any way because no unclean sinner can enter into the presence of God and until Christ finishes his atoning work no is clean and therefore can't enter heaven.
Of course you shouldn't let these simple, straight forward biblical truths keep you from your views.
You NEED to cling to the notion of a physical body entering a spiritual realm so you have my blessings to hold on to your beliefs. I don't expect you to come around to my way of thinking till we meet on the other side in our glorified, spiritual bodies.
I am not the one twisting the Bible here:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; (1 Corinthians 15:50)
--inherit does not mean enter.
Paul did not say flesh could not enter the kingdom of God. Sorry to burst your bubble. But the fact that you deliberately misquote Scripture to try to boost up a false theology explains a lot.
Words have meanings. What do you think "inherit" means?
convicted1
Guest
food for thought!!
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Right here is a description of Jesus' glorified body. I believe that this is a spiritual body, and we will get one just like it, IMHHO.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Right here is a description of Jesus' glorified body. I believe that this is a spiritual body, and we will get one just like it, IMHHO.
One should always use the full context of scripture.
Here is the rest of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Verse 54 being the key the corruptable flesh and blood that for many has been in the grave and decayed and for those who are alive at His coming, will put on incorruption. While in this corruptable flesh we cannot inherit the kingdom of God. When verse 52 says the last trupm sounds the mortal shall put on immortality. This is the change from a fleshly body to the the ressurection body that Christ had when He physically arose from the grave. The old corrupt body with an old sin nature puts becomes an incorruptable body without an old sin nature. We have victory of death and the grave according to verse 55. All because we have placed our faith in Christ. Paul put it in simple terms we shall be changed , some of us will not see death Paul says but we shall all be changed verse 51.
When one keys on one verse and doesn't follow up with the full context ones doctrine can get skewed. With just verse 50 one takes on your point of view but Paul made it clear the flesh is changed to an incorruptable, the mortal body to an immortal body, when the last trump is sounded for the believers of this age as 1 Thessalonians 4:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
tell us. When the trumpet sounds we will be changed and go into heaven with Christ.
Of course this is where the contention of the pre-mil, pre-trib verse the post-trib and amil, and the post-mil begins. But the bottom line Paul taught a definite ressurection of the old mortal body that is changed to immortal and a corruptable that is changed to incorruptable.
The reason we have that great chapter, 1Corinthians 15, in our Bibles today is that there were some in the Corinthian church, false teachers, that denied the bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. As a consequence they denied the bodily resurrection of our bodies as well. In effect they simply denied the resurrection. They were like the J.W.'s of this day. Jesus did not rise again, and if he did it was a "spiritual resurrection," which makes no sense for every death is a "spirit resurrection." That is the very definition of death--when the spirit separates from the body.
So what did Paul say about the Corinthian false teachers and their heresy?
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
21 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (1 Corinthians 15:19-20)
--If there is no resurrection we are most miserable. Our religion is just like any other. Why go on living like this--being persecuted, martyred, dying for a lie? And most of all, preaching a lie? What a miserable existence we endure if Christ is not risen a physical bodily resurrection.
--But in verse 21 he exclaims that Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of them that are dead. In other words, because he has a literal physical body, we too shall have one. He is the firstfruits. Whe shall be like him when we rise also.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
23 Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)
Christ is the firstfruits; more will come after him. They will come as Christ came--literally, physically, with a resurrection body. Christ was only the first.
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? (1 Corinthians 15:35)
--Here is the basic question they asked, and some here are still asking: Is it a spiritual body or a physical body?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (1 Corinthians 15:36)
--If you didn't have the right answer by now, Paul words were short and sweet for you. You are still a babe in Christ. What a strongly worded answer this is!
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. (1 Corinthians 15:39)
--He now goes into a very detailed answer for the slow learners at Corinth.
This is a key verse. There is more than one kind of flesh. Most of us know that. The more mature believers knew that Stephen's body had been stoned to death. They also knew what Nero was doing at that present time to believers--using them as human torches, throwing them to the lions, making them undergo unfathomable human torture, where the body would end up unrecognizable. Would this be the body they would see in heaven?? No. There is more than one kind of flesh. All flesh is not the same flesh.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Corinthians 15:40)
--To drive this point home further he draws the distinction between earthly bodies and heavenly bodies--but bodies nevertheless.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (1 Corinthians 15:42)
--In oh so simple language he details what it will be like in heaven--bodies that are sown (buried) in corruption (eaten by worms and decayed back to dust); raised in incorruption--immortal never to suffer decay any longer. This is not a "spiritual" body, but a physical body, as he has already explained. There is more than one kind of flesh.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:44)
--A spiritual body does not mean it is a spirit. It is a body--a body with no corruption. That is the meaning here. But it is still a physical body like unto the body of Jesus that appeared unto the 12 behind closed doors; that ate fish at the shore of the lake; that invited Thomas to put forth his hand and to touch his side and hands; that walked on the road to Emmaus, and even dined with these two disciples. This was Christ in his resurrection body. He could appear and reappear at will. He was seen of over 500 brethren. He was no spirit. This "spirit body" refers to his "resurrection body."
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:46)
--Christ's first body was like ours--natural. His second body was his resurrection body, called a spiritual body. Some day ours will be the same.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (1 Corinthians 15:50)
--Cannot inherit; not cannot enter.
He is referring to the natural body and the sinful nature which does not inherit the kingdom of God.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
--I personally believe that this refers to the rapture when Christ comes for his saints; when all believers will receive their resurrected bodies. It will be sudden, unexpected. We shall be changed--from corruption into incorruption--immediately.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53)
--For emphasis he repeats this same truth again.
The ending verse are written in triumph.
So what did Paul say about the Corinthian false teachers and their heresy?
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
21 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (1 Corinthians 15:19-20)
--If there is no resurrection we are most miserable. Our religion is just like any other. Why go on living like this--being persecuted, martyred, dying for a lie? And most of all, preaching a lie? What a miserable existence we endure if Christ is not risen a physical bodily resurrection.
--But in verse 21 he exclaims that Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of them that are dead. In other words, because he has a literal physical body, we too shall have one. He is the firstfruits. Whe shall be like him when we rise also.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
23 Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)
Christ is the firstfruits; more will come after him. They will come as Christ came--literally, physically, with a resurrection body. Christ was only the first.
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? (1 Corinthians 15:35)
--Here is the basic question they asked, and some here are still asking: Is it a spiritual body or a physical body?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (1 Corinthians 15:36)
--If you didn't have the right answer by now, Paul words were short and sweet for you. You are still a babe in Christ. What a strongly worded answer this is!
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. (1 Corinthians 15:39)
--He now goes into a very detailed answer for the slow learners at Corinth.
This is a key verse. There is more than one kind of flesh. Most of us know that. The more mature believers knew that Stephen's body had been stoned to death. They also knew what Nero was doing at that present time to believers--using them as human torches, throwing them to the lions, making them undergo unfathomable human torture, where the body would end up unrecognizable. Would this be the body they would see in heaven?? No. There is more than one kind of flesh. All flesh is not the same flesh.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Corinthians 15:40)
--To drive this point home further he draws the distinction between earthly bodies and heavenly bodies--but bodies nevertheless.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (1 Corinthians 15:42)
--In oh so simple language he details what it will be like in heaven--bodies that are sown (buried) in corruption (eaten by worms and decayed back to dust); raised in incorruption--immortal never to suffer decay any longer. This is not a "spiritual" body, but a physical body, as he has already explained. There is more than one kind of flesh.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:44)
--A spiritual body does not mean it is a spirit. It is a body--a body with no corruption. That is the meaning here. But it is still a physical body like unto the body of Jesus that appeared unto the 12 behind closed doors; that ate fish at the shore of the lake; that invited Thomas to put forth his hand and to touch his side and hands; that walked on the road to Emmaus, and even dined with these two disciples. This was Christ in his resurrection body. He could appear and reappear at will. He was seen of over 500 brethren. He was no spirit. This "spirit body" refers to his "resurrection body."
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:46)
--Christ's first body was like ours--natural. His second body was his resurrection body, called a spiritual body. Some day ours will be the same.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (1 Corinthians 15:50)
--Cannot inherit; not cannot enter.
He is referring to the natural body and the sinful nature which does not inherit the kingdom of God.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
--I personally believe that this refers to the rapture when Christ comes for his saints; when all believers will receive their resurrected bodies. It will be sudden, unexpected. We shall be changed--from corruption into incorruption--immediately.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Corinthians 15:53)
--For emphasis he repeats this same truth again.
The ending verse are written in triumph.
For all that you wrote here you still missed the point. Also, I don't think that you really know what Preterists believe, but skip that for now.
Take a look again at verse 40. "There are also heavenly bodies (somata epourania) and earthly bodies (somata epigeia); but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another."
Now go down to verses you skipped entirely, vs. 47-49:
"The first man was of the earth (ek ges), of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven (ex ouranou). As was the earthy man, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly [man, or Man], so also are those who are heavenly."
Vs. 49:
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
The contrast throughout is between earthy or of dust versus heavenly. The physical body is earthy. That is what makes us physical - the earthly elements that make up our body. The spiritual body is not made of earthy elements. It is not physical. That is the body we will have.
Yes, Christ rose from the dead with a physical body. It was absolutely necessary. But now we know Christ no longer in the flesh. He is a life-giving Spirit.
You need to read these verses a little more carefully than you have been. Also, you need to leave your baggage behind. Read the passage for what it really says, not for what you have been taught that it says.
The image of the heavenly is Jesus Christ, who sits at the right had of the throne of God, in a physical body, the same body that came and appeared to over 500 brethren in the first century
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. (1 Corinthians 15:6-8)
--Was Paul delirious?
You are allegorizing Scripture, not paying attention to what Paul is saying.
He says plainly that we will have celestial bodies, like his.
The will be incorruptible and immortal. But they will be physical. Are you denying that God cannot do this, for you are denying the literal interpretation of the Scripture here. It doesn't say "spirit;" it says "spiritual body." Then it goes on to describe it as a celestial body having flesh.
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. (1 Corinthians 15:38-39)
--This is plain English (and Greek). God gives us a body of flesh. How can you deny this?
We don't know him in the flesh because we don't see him in the flesh. We walk by faith. That doesn't mean he doesn't have flesh. There is a difference.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)
--We know that Christ shall appear physically. You admitted you don't have a good answer for that:
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)
And when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. When he shall appear we shall be changed. Our bodies will be changed into resurrection bodies like his--physical bodies such as he has, when we walked the face of this earth after his resurrection.
Who needs to read more carefully? It is not I that has these preconceived ideas and tries to fit them into a preconceived theology that is totally outside the realm of all orthodoxy.
the dead in Christ shall rise first:
them also which sleep in Jesus will God
them which are asleep, (In Christ I assume) that ye sorrow not,
The bodies have rotted away, forget about the bodies that they had when they walked the earth. They will have a new spirit body.
Primarily for Tom but everyone wade in, Are those spoken of above presently in that same condition as they apparently were when Paul wrote about them or have those personalities I will call Larry, Curly and Mo been raised from the dead and been given their new spirit bodies?
them also which sleep in Jesus will God
them which are asleep, (In Christ I assume) that ye sorrow not,
The bodies have rotted away, forget about the bodies that they had when they walked the earth. They will have a new spirit body.
Primarily for Tom but everyone wade in, Are those spoken of above presently in that same condition as they apparently were when Paul wrote about them or have those personalities I will call Larry, Curly and Mo been raised from the dead and been given their new spirit bodies?
thomas15
Well-Known Member
I will take you up on your offer to wade in. Please explain to this dullard a few things.
Define spirit bodies. What is the difference between a spirit body and a spiritual body or are they the same? Does the Bible teach that the resurrected and glorified bodies we will receive be spirit or spiritual bodies or possibly something else? What exactly does the Bible say our new bodies will be like?
When Jesus was resurrected, did he have a spirit body as you say we will have, a body that the Apostles were able to touch and communicate with? Did not Jesus in Luke 24:43 eat with this resurrected body? Did not Jesus say in the upper room that that he would not eat and drink the Passover meal until he returned? Why could we not conclude from the upper room discourse that when Jesus returns we will be able to actually eat the Passover meal? Did Jesus promise his diciples that they would eat the Passover meal with him in glory? How could Jesus keep this promise if the resurrected Apostles bodies are some kind of a spirit? What do you think the purpose of the transfiguration was if not to give us a clue as to the nature of our ressurected bodies?
1 Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will always be with the Lord.
Notice it says those who are dead in Christ will rise first. When the New Covenant comes into its fullness in 70 AD those who are dead in Christ are transformed and rise in their glorified spiritual body to dwell with Christ in heaven. Notice it says then (as in not right away, then—later—when we die) we will be instantly transformed at the time of death into our glorified spiritual body and go straight to heaven without having to wait on the work of Christ to be completed before we can enter into heaven.
At the point in time he came those already dead were transformed and thereafter those who will die are instantly transformed at the time of their death.
Have a good weekend.
What does inherit mean
Let’s see what the Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary says about inheritance.
In the NT “inheritance” can refer to property, but it mostly refers to the rewards of discipleship: eternal life.
Well since you can’t live forever on earth in your flesh and blood body and flesh and blood can’t enter heaven then it seems clear they are indicating that inheritance means enter into heaven in order to have eternal life. You do know Holman is a Baptist publishing company don’t you.
And, how about the NLT study bible: “only a spiritual, resurrected body can experience the kingdom in all its fullness.” And then it references John 4:24 which says God is spirit so those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Hmmm, seems John left out flesh and blood here—quite odd don’t you think)
And Henry says:
The sum is that the bodies of the saints, when they shall rise again, will be greatly changed from what they are now, and much for the better. They are now corruptible, flesh and blood; they will be then incorruptible, glorious, and spiritual bodies, fitted to the celestial world and state, where they are ever afterwards to dwell, and have their eternal inheritance.
It seems inherit does essentially mean enter into heaven in this sense as understood by the general Christian community.
Do I think this will change your mind—of course not—you NEED to hang on to your personal definition so you can hang on to your predisposed belief system.
It ain’t my responsibility to make you see the light—enjoy your world, your religion, your heaven, and your physical body.
You will be waiting till you die over there for a literal coming of Christ that never happens. Mean while I’ll be celebrating Christ’s victory over death that was achieved in 70 AD.
Cheers brother.
Let’s see what the Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary says about inheritance.
In the NT “inheritance” can refer to property, but it mostly refers to the rewards of discipleship: eternal life.
Well since you can’t live forever on earth in your flesh and blood body and flesh and blood can’t enter heaven then it seems clear they are indicating that inheritance means enter into heaven in order to have eternal life. You do know Holman is a Baptist publishing company don’t you.
And, how about the NLT study bible: “only a spiritual, resurrected body can experience the kingdom in all its fullness.” And then it references John 4:24 which says God is spirit so those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Hmmm, seems John left out flesh and blood here—quite odd don’t you think)
And Henry says:
The sum is that the bodies of the saints, when they shall rise again, will be greatly changed from what they are now, and much for the better. They are now corruptible, flesh and blood; they will be then incorruptible, glorious, and spiritual bodies, fitted to the celestial world and state, where they are ever afterwards to dwell, and have their eternal inheritance.
It seems inherit does essentially mean enter into heaven in this sense as understood by the general Christian community.
Do I think this will change your mind—of course not—you NEED to hang on to your personal definition so you can hang on to your predisposed belief system.
It ain’t my responsibility to make you see the light—enjoy your world, your religion, your heaven, and your physical body.
You will be waiting till you die over there for a literal coming of Christ that never happens. Mean while I’ll be celebrating Christ’s victory over death that was achieved in 70 AD.
Cheers brother.
I would say spiritual would be more accurate. We will be born of the spirit in a spiritual body incorruptible. Do you think that body will be composed of the same elements our present body is composed of?
This believe this also is speaking of this spiritual body. we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
I might also ask just what is being clothed here? We, what, shall not be found naked.
It may not say at the same time but it implies it.
caught up together with them in the clouds
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