A Death Blow to Full (Hyper) Preterism

[convicted1]

1 Thess 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will always be with the Lord.

Notice it says those who are dead in Christ will rise first. When the New Covenant comes into its fullness in 70 AD those who are dead in Christ are transformed and rise in their glorified spiritual body to dwell with Christ in heaven. Notice it says then (as in not right away, then—later—when we die) we will be instantly transformed at the time of death into our glorified spiritual body and go straight to heaven without having to wait on the work of Christ to be completed before we can enter into heaven.

At the point in time he came those already dead were transformed and thereafter those who will die are instantly transformed at the time of their death.

Have a good weekend.

Well, I guess I am going to have to ask you a "point blank" question, because I am confused here....which ain't hard for you to accomplish when talking to me...LOL

The natural body we have right now, when it is buried, will it come out of the ground? I mean in a spirit form? I believe that we will be raised from the grave, reunite with our soul that Jesus brings back with Him on the resurrection day.

So, will our natural body be resurrected?

You made the comment "When the New Covenant comes into its fulness in 70 AD, you state this in future tense. 70 AD has passed over 1900 yrs ago.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[John of Japan]

An excellent question and a very simple one to answer.

The greek term used here is aer which means air in the sense of the spirtual realm. If it had meant the sky or atmosphere it would have used the greek term ouranos.

Also, notice how the term aer is consistent with the balance of the bible which is about spirtual matters. The bible is not about science or the atmosphere or physical matters.

In short we will be caught up into the same spirtual realm as God--it is not suggesting that we will fly up into the sky to meet Jesus.

I don't know where you got this, but sorry, it is flat out wrong. First of all, here is the definition from Friberg's Anlex lexicon for aer (ahr):

ἀήρ , έρος , ὁ (1) as the space immediately above the earth air, atmosphere (1C 14.9); (2) as a substance air; equivalent to nothing in 1C 9.26; (3) as the space between heaven and earth inhabited by spirit-beings sky, air (EP 2.2)

Secondly, the word aer (ahr) occurs seven (7) times in the NT, and every single time it means demonstrably what we mean by "air" in English: the literal, physical atmosphere (oxygen, etc.) around us. It never means what you say, "air in the sense of the spirtual realm." You may object that the above definition points to that in Eph. 2:2. No, because of the normal meaning of the word, we should understand that as just the sky, which is the place where spiritual beings are. Just because a being is a spirit doesn't mean it can't exist in the actual air. Every single other one of the seven occurances of the word is clearly the physical air. You can't change the meaning to "spiritual realm" just because a spirit is mentioned in the verse.

Thirdly, in v. 16 we have ouranos, which you say means "sky" or "atmosphere." So Jesus comes down from the sky, the ouranos, from Heaven, to take us up into aer, the actual, physical air.

 

[John of Japan]

Walvoord was no different than Hal Lindsey in this regard:

Point taken. I forgot about that book. As to the rest of your post, sorry, but once again it has nothing to do with the OP.

God bless.

 

[HankD]

So, will our natural body be resurrected?
Willis

Yes but it will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

HankD​

 

[percho]

Yes but it will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

HankD​

This believe this also is speaking of this spiritual body. we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

From whence does it look like this body comes? Is that the body that was buried?

I might also ask just what is being clothed here? We,(What is the we here that shall not be found naked?) shall not be found naked.

What shall not be found naked is the dead in Christ. Not the bodies of the dead in Christ. The dead (souls) in Christ will be given the above new body.

But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

The dead and the body are spoken of as separate things here. The soul that sinneth it shall die. It is the personality/person of one that once was alive but now dead as in the dead in Christ. Let's call these three souls Larry, Curly and Mo. They are in the ark, dead in Christ.

How are the dead souls raised up? And with what body do they come?

And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain,
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

[DHK]

This is an incredible myth. How many times did the J.W.'s and the SDA's as well predict the coming of Christ, and fail?

What credible evidence do you have that Christ came in 70 A.D.? Who saw him? Where is the evidence? Was there a Millennial Kingdom that followed? How can you verify this 70 A.D. coming of Christ, or is it all just a myth?

Never did get an answer to this.

 

[DHK]

Let’s see what the Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary says about inheritance.

In the NT “inheritance” can refer to property, but it mostly refers to the rewards of discipleship: eternal life.

Well since you can’t live forever on earth in your flesh and blood body and flesh and blood can’t enter heaven then it seems clear they are indicating that inheritance means enter into heaven in order to have eternal life. You do know Holman is a Baptist publishing company don’t you.

And, how about the NLT study bible: “only a spiritual, resurrected body can experience the kingdom in all its fullness.” And then it references John 4:24 which says God is spirit so those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Hmmm, seems John left out flesh and blood here—quite odd don’t you think)

And Henry says:
The sum is that the bodies of the saints, when they shall rise again, will be greatly changed from what they are now, and much for the better. They are now corruptible, flesh and blood; they will be then incorruptible, glorious, and spiritual bodies, fitted to the celestial world and state, where they are ever afterwards to dwell, and have their eternal inheritance.

Isn't it odd how you don't pay attention to your own posts.
The post says that they will be bodies. They will be celestial bodies, incorruptible, but bodies nevertheless.

 

[HankD]

This believe this also is speaking of this spiritual body. we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

From whence does it look like this body comes? Is that the body that was buried?

I might also ask just what is being clothed here? We,(What is the we here that shall not be found naked?) shall not be found naked.

What shall not be found naked is the dead in Christ. Not the bodies of the dead in Christ. The dead (souls) in Christ will be given the above new body.

But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

The dead and the body are spoken of as separate things here. The soul that sinneth it shall die. It is the personality/person of one that once was alive but now dead as in the dead in Christ. Let's call these three souls Larry, Curly and Mo. They are in the ark, dead in Christ.

How are the dead souls raised up? And with what body do they come?

And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain,
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Just some comments for preterists to be considered but not necssarily answered in this thread.

Jesus resurrected in a literal body, he talked, ate and drank with the disciples. He is the firstfruits of the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

It seems to reason that we will be like Him (with a literal body) if we are of the same harvest.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

HankD​

 

[percho]

Just some comments for preterists to be considered but not necssarily answered in this thread.

Jesus resurrected in a literal body, he talked, ate and drank with the disciples. He is the firstfruits of the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

It seems to reason that we will be like Him (with a literal body) if we are of the same harvest.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

HankD​

Also remember some who were the closest to him did not know who he was.

 

[thomas15]

Also remember some who were the closest to him did not know who he was.

And why was that?

 

[percho]

And why was that?

For some reason they did not recognize him. I don't think it says why?

 

[Winman]

For some reason they did not recognize him. I don't think it says why?

Most likely because he was disfigured by the beatings and crucifixion he suffered.

Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Jesus retained his scars from the crucifixion, he invited Thomas to touch the wounds of his hands, and reach his hand into his side where he was pierced. It is reasonable to assume he also retained the scars from the severe beatings he was subjected to before his crucifixion. Mary, who met him at the tomb did not recognize him until he spoke to her.

 

[thomas15]

Most likely because he was disfigured by the beatings and crucifixion he suffered.

Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Jesus retained his scars from the crucifixion, he invited Thomas to touch the wounds of his hands, and reach his hand into his side where he was pierced. It is reasonable to assume he also retained the scars from the severe beatings he was subjected to before his crucifixion. Mary, who met him at the tomb did not recognize him until he spoke to her.

I always thought the reason why they didn't recognize him was that they really didn't expect him to appear in a real, physical and personal sense in a literal 3 days after the cross.

 

[percho]

Most likely because he was disfigured by the beatings and crucifixion he suffered.

Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Jesus retained his scars from the crucifixion, he invited Thomas to touch the wounds of his hands, and reach his hand into his side where he was pierced. It is reasonable to assume he also retained the scars from the severe beatings he was subjected to before his crucifixion. Mary, who met him at the tomb did not recognize him until he spoke to her.

I can go along with this for his body that did not see corruption but what of one that was say burned up or had been dead for a great period of time and saw corruption.

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

I can go along with this for his body that did not see corruption but what of one that was say burned up or had been dead for a great period of time and saw corruption.

Read Ezekiel chapter 37 where Ezekiel saw dry bones and was commanded to prophesy to them. Though they were scattered, they came together, and the Lord brought flesh and sinews upon them. Ezekiel prophesied again and breath came into them and they stood on their feet.

So, these bodies were long decomposed, but the Lord was able to reconstruct them.

 

[convicted1]

Yes but it will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

HankD​

(((((AMEN!!!!!))))):thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: Provided the "change" is from physical to spiritual....if you don't mean this, then I take back by *amen* and three thumbs up!! I will then replace them with "boos" and "hisses"!! LOl J/K!!

 

[HankD]

(((((AMEN!!!!!))))):thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: Provided the "change" is from physical to spiritual....if you don't mean this, then I take back by *amen* and three thumbs up!! I will then replace them with "boos" and "hisses"!! LOl J/K!!

Yes it is a spitiritual body but it is also a material body like Christ's when He ate and drank with the disciples and apostles after His resurrection and had promised them the same:

Luke 22

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

HankD

 

[Logos1]

Sorry, John I'll have to give you a "No Sale" on this one

I don't know where you got this, but sorry, it is flat out wrong. First of all, here is the definition from Friberg's Anlex lexicon for aer (ahr):

Secondly, the word aer (ahr) occurs seven (7) times in the NT, and every single time it means demonstrably what we mean by "air" in English: the literal, physical atmosphere (oxygen, etc.) around us. It never means what you say, "air in the sense of the spirtual realm." You may object that the above definition points to that in Eph. 2:2. No, because of the normal meaning of the word, we should understand that as just the sky, which is the place where spiritual beings are. Just because a being is a spirit doesn't mean it can't exist in the actual air. Every single other one of the seven occurances of the word is clearly the physical air. You can't change the meaning to "spiritual realm" just because a spirit is mentioned in the verse.

Thirdly, in v. 16 we have ouranos, which you say means "sky" or "atmosphere." So Jesus comes down from the sky, the ouranos, from Heaven, to take us up into aer, the actual, physical air.

Nice try John, but I’m afraid you and Friberg don’t own the definition of aer and plenty of scholars do link it to the spiritual realm whether you choose to accept it or not.

For example as has often been noted:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
[Do we understand the word Spirit?. The Greek definition is] #G 4151. pneuma, pnyoo'-mah; from G4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Comp. G5590.
G4154 pneo, pneh'-o; a prim. word; to breathe hard, i.e. breeze:--blow. Comp. G5594.
G5594 psucho, psoo'-kho; a prim. verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently; thus differing on the one hand from G4154, which denotes prop. a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of G109, which refers prop. to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by impl. of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (fig.):--wax cold.
G5590. psuche, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by impl.) spirit, abstr. or concr. (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Heb. H5315, H7307 and H2416):--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

Aer Associates air with the God in spirit.

As you admit ouranos denotes the atmosphere so I think we can agree that if Paul meant to say sky he would have used this word and not aer which has spiritual connotation. Ouranos would have left no doubt he meant sky. Aer is just not at all the same limited meaning.

I appreciate your efforts John, but I’m going to have to stick with the spiritual connotation for aer here.

 

[Logos1]

No your physical body does not rise out of the ground

Well, I guess I am going to have to ask you a "point blank" question, because I am confused here....which ain't hard for you to accomplish when talking to me...LOL

The natural body we have right now, when it is buried, will it come out of the ground? I mean in a spirit form? I believe that we will be raised from the grave, reunite with our soul that Jesus brings back with Him on the resurrection day.

So, will our natural body be resurrected?

You made the comment "When the New Covenant comes into its fulness in 70 AD, you state this in future tense. 70 AD has passed over 1900 yrs ago.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Sorry, I thought I had answered it point blank.

No the physical body does not rise out of the ground.

Your soul is transformed into a glorified state and dwells in heaven with God (if you want to call it a spiritual body—go ahead)

Your soul is separated from your body and goes to heaven. Your physical body does not.