A Failure of Government in These United States

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
Will we learn from this storm? ... Building a major, economically critical city below sea level in a hurricane zone is simply not rational... in fact, it is absolutely stupid.

I wouldn't go so far as stupid. But I do think it's fair to say that when one builds his house there, understand that there are risks.
</font>[/QUOTE] Two issues. I believe what you say is true of where people choose to live.

I don't think it is true of spending federal money to rebuild or the positioning of strategic resources... like shipyards, harbors, petroleum refineries, and tank farms.

I don't think there's any place that is immune from occaisional weather, geologic, or topographical conitions from time to time. Expect them, and plan for them. It may only affect you one every 50-100 years or so, but it will affect you.

Some places are much more dangerous than others. There are risks of tornadoes here... but that risk is minimal compared to the likelihood of hurricanes hitting NO again.

NO will more than likely be hit again. If it is a direct hit by a Cat 5 then nothing we do will prevent a similar tragedy in a city below sea level.

 

[poncho]

"I don't think there's any place that is immune from occaisional weather, geologic, or topographical conitions from time to time. Expect them, and plan for them. It may only affect you one every 50-100 years or so, but it will affect you."

Expect them and plan for them. Good sound advice Johnv! Some examples of advance planning below.

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

 

[LadyEagle]

I don't recall seeing mobs of angry people looting, wreaking havoc, shooting AK-47s, raping, and shouting for food and water in NYC after 09/11. Aid, rescue and search efforts were coordinated and organized. Everyone had a job to do and did that job. Why is that? They had a Mayor who provided LEADERSHIP.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Scott J:
I don't think it is true of spending federal money to rebuild or the positioning of strategic resources... like shipyards, harbors, petroleum refineries, and tank farms.

Even with those, no location is immune to the forces of nature when nature tends to be occaisionally extreme.

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
I don't recall seeing mobs of angry people looting, wreaking havoc, shooting AK-47s, raping, and shouting for food and water in NYC after 09/11. Aid, rescue and search efforts were coordinated and organized. Everyone had a job to do and did that job. Why is that? They had a Mayor who provided LEADERSHIP.

9-11 was a bit different. The affected area was highly compacted and isolated. In New Orleans, it's spread widely over the bulk of the city, making it, in the very least, incredibly challenging to perform even minor humanitarian work.

 

[LadyEagle]

Spokesman for FEMA just said they are considering using military bases for temporary housing. It is on the table as a consideration.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

My understanding tonight is that C-130's have touched down in NO. I would expect to see food, water, and supplies to be dropped out the back anytime now, and if not, I would have to demand to know why? We drop relief, food and water to everywhere else in the world where there is a disaster, but we can't take care of our own? No. That is unacceptable, and if you want to be mad that I am pointing it out, then that is just tough cookies. If our government doesn't get its act together and help these people, they are failing our nation when we need them most.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by ShagNappy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by KenH:
More Bush bashing won't solve the problem. There is guilt all over the hands of both major political parties. Their interest is only about who is in power and gets to call the shots. Period.

That's all Old 33 does. Well, that and trumpeting the glorious, righteous work the ACLU does. </font>[/QUOTE]We've seen specific instances where the current administration has taken steps that made the situation in New Orleans worse. KenH keeps saying that it's "things that have been done over the last few decades." That's a long period of time. What are some examples of things done earlier that had the same negative impact as reducing the wetlands for development or undersizing the levees?

 

[Filmproducer]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
My understanding tonight is that C-130's have touched down in NO. I would expect to see food, water, and supplies to be dropped out the back anytime now, and if not, I would have to demand to know why? We drop relief, food and water to everywhere else in the world where there is a disaster, but we can't take care of our own? No. That is unacceptable, and if you want to be mad that I am pointing it out, then that is just tough cookies. If our government doesn't get its act together and help these people, they are failing our nation when we need them most.

Joseph Botwinick

Thank you, I couldn't agree more. The government is failing these people. I have seen people talk about how people decided to stay and ignored orders to evacuate. Do you not realize that these people are poor? not to mention that it is the end of the month and they did not have TRANSPORTATION to leave. Also, lines at the superdome were horrendous. I have heard that people stayed home because they did not want to be caught outside waiting to get into the Superdome, also some people had children, elderly, and sick. I don't know about you, but I might have tried to stay home and not wait in those lines if I KNEW i would not be able to get out of the city.

Also, we need to realize that for every picture or story about a thug in NOLA, that the media shows, there hundreds more who are obeying the law and SUFFERING. Please try to put yourself in these people's shoes. They are TIRED, HUNGRY, WORRIED, FRUSTRATED, THIRSTY and on and on I could go. Information is not being passed to them. They do not access to radios, or news, or the Internet. They are right to demand to know when they will receive help. They have families and children to take care of. How would you feel if your child was SUFFERING and STARVING before your eyes?

I am not laying blame on anyone. I don't care whose fault it is. Republicans and Democrats alike are failing these AMERICAN CITIZENS.

 

[Matt Black]

Please note that this is not an American-bashing session from this Limey; now is certainly not the time for that. But I am very puzzled - as are all the major news networks and pretty much everyone I talk to about this - about what is happening now. I agree with Curtis that fingers of blame really shouldn't be pointed about the possible prevention of this natural disaster, but I am very concerned about what has happened - or rather not happened - since Katrina hit NO. Here we have the paradox of the richest country in the world seemingly unable to help some of its poorest citizens, with the scenes on the news last night - not just in NO but throughout the Gulf States - resembling some kind of Third World disaster aftermath, with people dying of starvation, thirst, violence and disease and seemingly hardly any of them being rescued or evacuated some 3-4 days after the hurricane (never mind before).

My questions are this: where is the federal government? Do they not have some kind of emergency/ disaster relief program or protocol that is activated in such circumstances? Why are people still sitting on their roofs in Gulfport and Biloxi waiting for someone to rescue them and why haven't those rescuers come? When are they going to be evacuated...and where to? Have 'refugee camps' or temporary shelters been set up on the edge of the disaster zone? If not, why not? Who is, or should be, responsible for co-ordinating the relief effort? Are there no emergency supplies of gas stockpiled to deal with the shortages?

Although as a non-US citizen, I'm not angry like Joseph and othe posters here, but I am very perplexed and concerned? Am I missing something here?

 

[Filmproducer]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Please note that this is not an American-bashing session from this Limey; now is certainly not the time for that. But I am very puzzled - as are all the major news networks and pretty much everyone I talk to about this - about what is happening now. I agree with Curtis that fingers of blame really shouldn't be pointed about the possible prevention of this natural disaster, but I am very concerned about what has happened - or rather not happened - since Katrina hit NO. Here we have the paradox of the richest country in the world seemingly unable to help some of its poorest citizens, with the scenes on the news last night - not just in NO but throughout the Gulf States - resembling some kind of Third World disaster aftermath, with people dying of starvation, thirst, violence and disease and seemingly hardly any of them being rescued or evacuated some 3-4 days after the hurricane (never mind before).

My questions are this: where is the federal government? Do they not have some kind of emergency/ disaster relief program or protocol that is activated in such circumstances? Why are people still sitting on their roofs in Gulfport and Biloxi waiting for someone to rescue them and why haven't those rescuers come? When are they going to be evacuated...and where to? Have 'refugee camps' or temporary shelters been set up on the edge of the disaster zone? If not, why not? Who is, or should be, responsible for co-ordinating the relief effort? Are there no emergency supplies of gas stockpiled to deal with the shortages?

Although as a non-US citizen, I'm not angry like Joseph and othe posters here, but I am very perplexed and concerned? Am I missing something here?

I am an American and I am perplexed also. I always took pride in the fact that no matter what the circumstance, America would send aid immediately following devastating natural disasters in other countries. I am angry as a citizen, because I don't feel as if the government, (dems and reps alike), is doing enough for our own citizens. I feel as if they were not afforded the same courtesy. It feels as if it is taking longer to mobilize aid than it should. What is stopping them from dropping food to these people? I don't want to hear anything else about people shooting at the helicopters, because I feel as if these trained National Guard could shoot the people shooting at them. As I stated before, for every "bad apple," there are hundreds, even thousands, of people obeying the law and waiting and suffering. I do not think I can stand to hear another story, or see pictures, of these families trying to stay ALIVE. May God help them and sustain them until help arrives.

PLEASE continue your prayers for everyone affected by this disaster. There is no greater time than now to become a prayer warrior.

 

[Matt Black]

I will certainly pray for all the poor souls caught up in this.

I'm trying to think who would 'do the honours' in the event of something similar happening here. The Home Office would be responsible for law and order (as happened after the July 7th bombings), with the back up of the Ministry of Defence/ Army if necessary. We do have a Disaster Relief Committee (essentially a bunch of Men In Suits who live in a bunker under Whitehall most of the time and only emerge at such times) and they would act in liason with an Inner Cabinet (like a war cabinet)/ 'administration' formed by the Prime Minister and probably consisting of him, the Home Secretary, Defence Secretary and Health Secretary. The military (well, those that aren't in Iraq) would be given orders by both these bodies to carry out evacuation and relief efforts on the ground. Schools and other public buildings on the edge of the disaster area would be commandeered as temporary shelters for the evacuees and hospitals in the same location would be run on an 'all hands to the pumps' basis (it's here more than anywhere that I think we'd fall down - the London hospitals just about coped with 7/7, but if there had been more bombs...). I guess the success or otherwise of the relief effort, apart from the point about medical resources referred to above, would be dependent on the leadership qualities of the Inner Cabinet; the Disaster Relief Committee could only do an effective job if instructed properly by a firm and decisive national leadership. Not sure whether Blair and Co would have what it takes there....

 

[Hardsheller]

Folks,

This is America.

The individual States and Cities have the PRIME responsibility for Emergency Management.

The Federal Government can only assist STATE and LOCAL governments. You wouldn't want to pay the taxes for FEMA to have DIRECT responsibility for all possible natural disasters in the USA.

In the Case of Louisiana and New Orleans it is obvious that Leadership in the State Government and the City Government is far below the standard set by Mayor Rudy Giuliani after 9/11.

 

[Matt Black]

And that helps the poor souls in the Superdome or sitting on thier rooftops how, exactly?

 

[Hardsheller]

Matt, It doesn't.

But it does explain the proper role of the Federal Government.

 

[Matt Black]

I don't think it does, with respect. I know that you, like many American BB members here, are not a fan of Big Government; but surely here is a perfect example of why Big Government is sometimes necessary. LA and the other Gulf States (other than TX and FL) are among the poorest in the Union and simply don't have the resources to cope with a disaster of this magnitude (which now covers several States, not just LA), still less just a city like NO, and therefore organisation and co-ordination of the relief effort by the Federal government IS necessary; no other body is 'Big' enough to do it.

 

[El_Guero]

I am stunned at how FEW people have any idea what REALLY happened.

GOD diverted a CATEGORY 5 hurricane away from N.O. and into Mississippi in answer to PRAYERS. INSTEAD OF CAT 5, New Orleans took a hit from a CAT 3. Had Mississippi taken a Cat 3, hundreds of their people would have lived that are now dead ...

MAN THOUGHT IT COULD OUT ENGINEER AN ACT OF GOD.

 

[Hardsheller]

Sorry Matt, but you Brits should have learned this a long time ago. We Yanks are a stubborn people. We don't take kindly to other branches of government intruding on our space.

The President of the USA has to be asked by the Governor and the Mayor to intervene and help. Obviously this has happened. But the realistic response of the US Government is always slow.

The Federal Aid is coming but that does not excuse the lack of preparedness on the part of the City of NO or the State of LA.

 

[Matt Black]

How can they prepare if they don't have the money or other resources to do so? And does political ideology or the interpretation of the constitution really matter so much when people are dying?

 

[riverm]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
How can they prepare if they don't have the money or other resources to do so?

Bush declared the areas in the path of Katrina a disaster area days before Katrina hit the area, therefore money was released to these areas days before. Just what did LA do with this money to prepare?

 

[Hardsheller]

Matt,

I find it hard to believe that New Orleans or any major city in the U.S., post 9/11, does not have a Storm Proof Command and Control Center to be able to deal with any kind of emergency.

New Orleans did not have one. Bottom Line. They were unprepared for any kind of disaster.