A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed

[DHK]

Excellent post. :thumbsup: All of Israel was atoned for by the sacrifice, but as you pointed out the rest of the world did not have such an atonement, in a similar manner the lamb of Passover was put outside the doors of the Israelites to save them, but the lamb did not cover the Egyptian first born as all of them were killed. "And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead" (Exodus 12:30). The lamb was limited to the Jews and is symbolic of Christ who's atonement is limited to the elect. You do realize though that trying to convince good old brother DHK of these truths is a losing battle?

All the sins of Israel were atoned for. That is precisely the point. But not all Israel were saved: Jezebel, Ahab, Manasseh, Hophni and Phineas, Saul the King of Israel, etc. Were any of these men saved? I don't believe so. And yet their sins were atoned for, weren't they? The High Priest made an atonement even for Manasseh, who:

2Ki 21:2 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
2Ki 21:3 For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.
2Ki 21:4 And he built altars in the house of the LORD, of which the LORD said, In Jerusalem will I put my name.
2Ki 21:5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.
2Ki 21:6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Would you sacrifice your son, causing him to walk through fire and thus be a living but burnt sacrifice--burnt alive?
But his sins were atoned for--the sins of the entire nation!!

 

[savedbymercy]

But it doesn't say that! You add to the Scriptures.
Do you know what God says about adding to the Scriptures?
Do you know who else has added to the Scriptures.
Bob Ryan's group is one such group that have added to the Scriptures.

It doesn't say it's not!

 

[SovereignGrace]

All the sins of Israel were atoned for. That is precisely the point. But not all Israel were saved: Jezebel, Ahab, Manasseh, Hophni and Phineas, Saul the King of Israel, etc. Were any of these men saved? I don't believe so. And yet their sins were atoned for, weren't they? The High Priest made an atonement even for Manasseh, who:

2Ki 21:2 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
2Ki 21:3 For he built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.
2Ki 21:4 And he built altars in the house of the LORD, of which the LORD said, In Jerusalem will I put my name.
2Ki 21:5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.
2Ki 21:6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Would you sacrifice your son, causing him to walk through fire and thus be a living but burnt sacrifice--burnt alive?
But his sins were atoned for--the sins of the entire nation!!

Did you read my last two posts in this thread, DHK?

Israel was a picture of the church(assembly) to come. It was the 'church(assembly) in the wilderness'[Acts 7:38]. Now, not everyone in the local assemblies(churches) are truly converted, yet Eph. 5:25 says Christ died for the church(assembly). So, the atonement brought with it reconciliation, actual restoration. So, if all of Israel received the restorative(is this even a word? :laugh: ) works of the atonement, then all of Israel, including Phineas, Hophni, Saul, Jezebel, et al would have been restored.


Is there anyone restored that died, or will die, lost?

 

[SovereignGrace]

But it doesn't say that! You add to the Scriptures.
Do you know what God says about adding to the Scriptures?
Do you know who else has added to the Scriptures.
Bob Ryan's group is one such group that have added to the Scriptures.

'World' has differing meanings and applications in the bible, monsieur.

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.[Jn 15:19]

By your hand save me from such people, Lord, from those of this world whose reward is in this life. May what you have stored up for the wicked fill their bellies; may their children gorge themselves on it, and may there be leftovers for their little ones.[Psa.17:14]

I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.[Isa. 13:11]

For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them.[Lu. 12:30]


This 'world' is sinners, monsieur.


He rules the world in righteousness and judges the peoples with equity.[Psa. 9:8]

Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.[Psa. 19:4]

Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.[Psa. 90:2]


The entire earth, the globe around.


[ John Testifies About Jesus ] The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world![Jn 1:29]


For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.[Jn 3:16,17]

They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”[Jn 4:42]


[ Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony ] When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”[Jn 8:12]


These are world of believers.

World meaning globe of earth.
World of lost beings.
World of saved beings.

What savedbymercy stated was on cue.

 

[DHK]

Did you read my last two posts in this thread, DHK?

Israel was a picture of the church(assembly) to come. It was the 'church(assembly) in the wilderness'[Acts 7:38]. Now, not everyone in the local assemblies(churches) are truly converted, yet Eph. 5:25 says Christ died for the church(assembly). So, the atonement brought with it reconciliation, actual restoration. So, if all of Israel received the restorative(is this even a word? :laugh: ) works of the atonement, then all of Israel, including Phineas, Hophni, Saul, Jezebel, et al would have been restored.


Is there anyone restored that died, or will die, lost?

(Darby) This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers; who received living oracles to give to us;

(ESV) This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.

The proper translation of ekklesia is "assembly". There is no church in the OT, not even close. Every time Israel stopped they assembled, for they were an assembly. The Tabernacle was set up, and there they assembled together.

A "church building" is a simple structure where the "church" or "assembly" assembles. There was no church in the OT. The church began in the NT, specifically on the day of Pentecost.

If the local church does its due diligence every member will be saved and baptized. Not everyone under its roof is a member. It is not everyone under the roof that is the local church, but every saved and baptized person who has formally requested membership in the church. If they are not saved and baptized how can they be members of the church. Thus in our church there are no unsaved members.

ekklesia is always used in the sense of assembly.
That is what it means: assembly or congregation, as in the two translations I gave you. That being the case there is no "universal church." It is impossible to have an "unassembled assembly." An assembly must have the ability to assemble. The universal church has no such ability. It is a contradiction in terms.

By very definition a local church, if it is biblical must be composed only of saved and baptized individuals. If they are not saved, then by default they are not members.

 

[SovereignGrace]

(Darby) This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers; who received living oracles to give to us;

(ESV) This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.

The proper translation of ekklesia is "assembly". There is no church in the OT, not even close. Every time Israel stopped they assembled, for they were an assembly. The Tabernacle was set up, and there they assembled together.

A "church building" is a simple structure where the "church" or "assembly" assembles. There was no church in the OT. The church began in the NT, specifically on the day of Pentecost.

If the local church does its due diligence every member will be saved and baptized. Not everyone under its roof is a member. It is not everyone under the roof that is the local church, but every saved and baptized person who has formally requested membership in the church. If they are not saved and baptized how can they be members of the church. Thus in our church there are no unsaved members.

ekklesia is always used in the sense of assembly.
That is what it means: assembly or congregation, as in the two translations I gave you. That being the case there is no "universal church." It is impossible to have an "unassembled assembly." An assembly must have the ability to assemble. The universal church has no such ability. It is a contradiction in terms.

By very definition a local church, if it is biblical must be composed only of saved and baptized individuals. If they are not saved, then by default they are not members.

The local church is an assembly peoples is my point. You have some goats in a vast majority of them, I'm afraid. But Christ is the head of THE church, the 'world of believers'. He is a Shepherd of the sheep and not a goat herder.

 

[Yeshua1]

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Yes, they are obviously unsaved persons--false teachers teaching one of many damnable heresies or destructive heresies.
What is the one destructive doctrine that Peter points out that these false teachers are insidiously introducing into the church?
They are introducing that destructive heresy of limited atonement denying the doctrine that Christ paid the penalty for the unsaved--even false teachers as them.

There they were--false teachers proclaiming they weren't saved because Christ didn't die for them. His blood wasn't sufficient enough to cover their sin. It wasn't sufficient to cover all the sins of all the people! How do you know it was sufficient to cover yours.
If you are a Calvinist how can you really know that you are one of the elect?
How do you know? Perhaps it is you that are among the non-elect, and it is you that the blood of Christ does not cover. How can you know for sure?
On what basis?

The non-Cal says that the basis of his being the elect is belief, faith. God looks down and knows who will believe. Those who have believed are the elect. But you don't know if you are one of the elect, do you? You have no way of knowing.

You sre here denying that we xan know Jesus is the Lord, thru and by the work of the Holy Spirit, and know that we have already passed from death to life, as that same Spirit confirms and assures us that we are now His own!

None of us would make the choice here to receive jesus if the Lord himself did not chose us first!

 

[DHK]

These are world of believers.

World meaning globe of earth.
World of lost beings.
World of saved beings.

What savedbymercy stated was on cue.

No, it wasn't.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What else did the apostles write about Jesus:
He came to seek and to save the lost.
He came not to save the righteous but for the unrighteousness.
--For the righteous have no need of a physician (or a Savior).
Christ came for those that needed a Savior and gave three parables that taught that truth.

He came from the glories in heaven, the eternal Son of God, born of a virgin in a humble manger, that he might give himself as a one-time offering for all men everywhere in all time.

Thus John could accurately say:
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

He said nothing of "the elect." That is not even the context.
The first part of the chapter speaks of Christ being the Creator of all, yes, even all the world; all the universe.
Twice John the Baptist emphasizes that he is the Lamb of God, and once emphasizes ...that takes away the sins of the world.
His kingship is spoken of.
He is introduced as the Messiah, the Savior. For what? For the world!

This again will be emphasized over and over again in chapter 3.

 

[DHK]

The local church is an assembly peoples is my point. You have some goats in a vast majority of them, I'm afraid. But Christ is the head of THE church, the 'world of believers'. He is a Shepherd of the sheep and not a goat herder.

I agree He is a sheep herder. In fact He is the Great Shepherd. You are the one saying he is leading goats. Why would you say that?

 

[Rippon]

The local church is an assembly peoples is my point. You have some goats in a vast majority of them, I'm afraid.

The wheat and tares are right next to one another.

He is a Shepherd of the sheep and not a goat herder.

I made a thread on that very topic here a number of years ago.

 

[SovereignGrace]

There are at least three applications of the word 'world', mon ami.

World, as in tyrene earth.
World, as in sinners.
World of believers.

Now again, monsieur can someone who has been restored by the redemptive, restorative, efficacious works of the cross die lost?

 

[DHK]

There are at least three applications of the word 'world', mon ami.

World, as in tyrene earth.
World, as in sinners.
World of believers.

Now again, monsieur can someone who has been restored by the redemptive, restorative, efficacious works of the cross die lost?

There was no one in Israel "restored"?
Not Ahab, Jezebel, etc.
I don't see the relevance of your question.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

(Darby) This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers; who received living oracles to give to us;

(ESV) This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.

The proper translation of ekklesia is "assembly". There is no church in the OT, not even close. Every time Israel stopped they assembled, for they were an assembly. The Tabernacle was set up, and there they assembled together.

ekklesia is always used in the sense of assembly.
That is what it means: assembly or congregation, as in the two translations I gave you. That being the case there is no "universal church." It is impossible to have an "unassembled assembly." An assembly must have the ability to assemble. The universal church has no such ability. It is a contradiction in terms.

Partial quote from John Gill's commentary on Acts 7:38
"This is he that was in the church in the wilderness Which must be understood of the children of Israel, who were the then church of God, whom he had chosen and separated from the rest of the world, to be a peculiar people to himself, to whom were given the word and ordinances, the service of God, and the promises; and God always had, and will have a church, though that is sometimes in the wilderness; which has been the case under the Gospel dispensation, as well as before; ( Revelation 12:6 Revelation 12:14 ) and it was a peculiar honour to Moses, that he was in this church, though it was in the wilderness; even a greater honour than to be in Pharaoh's court"

I read another commentary that said , "The word "church" is translated from the Greek ekklesia, meaning "called-out" or "assembly." The "church in the wilderness" consisted of those called out of physical Egypt; the New Testament church are those called out of the spiritual Egypt of false belief and practice dominating this world" http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/27155/eVerseID/27155

I believe the point Brother Sov was trying to make Brother DHK, is that the sacrifices only covered all of Israel, not all nations in the entire world, likewise Christ's sacrifice only covers all of spiritual Israel, not everyone in the entire world.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I agree He is a sheep herder.

Yes.

In fact He is the Great Shepherd.

YES!!!

You are the one saying he is leading goats. Why would you say that?

Huh? Whaaa? Where did I say that. Please stop telling falsehoods about my posts. That is at least twice you have done this, monsieur.

In the local churches(assemblies) there are false converts in them. To say all churches(assemblies) have only saved members is similiar to driving blindfolded. Open your eyes, in other words.


Christ said Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Satan probably has more ministers manning the pulpits than God does, monsieur.

Satan has planted false converts in these churches(assemblies) and you can tell it by some of the ungodly doctrines being spouted. Even some churches rejoiced with the supreme court's most recent ruling, defecating on marriage.

 

[SovereignGrace]

There was no one in Israel "restored"?
Not Ahab, Jezebel, etc.
I don't see the relevance of your question.

You use 2 Cor. 5:19 as a universal application. Part of that verse says not counting people's sins against them.

Atonement brought reconciliation, or another word used, restoration. Now, if Christ universally restored the 'whole entire world' including those who never heard the gospel, never knew He existed, how could they receive reconciliation, restoration?

So, is there anyone restored that died lost?

Here is the definition of restoration the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition. Christ's restorative cross works actually accomplished this. What we lost in Adam, the whole human race lost this, we, the church, the chosen, the elect, the sheep, the Lamb's bride, gained in Christ. He restored us through His cross work.


So are any restored people in hell?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Partial quote from John Gill's commentary on Acts 7:38
"This is he that was in the church in the wilderness Which must be understood of the children of Israel, who were the then church of God, whom he had chosen and separated from the rest of the world, to be a peculiar people to himself, to whom were given the word and ordinances, the service of God, and the promises; and God always had, and will have a church, though that is sometimes in the wilderness; which has been the case under the Gospel dispensation, as well as before; ( Revelation 12:6 Revelation 12:14 ) and it was a peculiar honour to Moses, that he was in this church, though it was in the wilderness; even a greater honour than to be in Pharaoh's court"

I read another commentary that said , "The word "church" is translated from the Greek ekklesia, meaning "called-out" or "assembly." The "church in the wilderness" consisted of those called out of physical Egypt; the New Testament church are those called out of the spiritual Egypt of false belief and practice dominating this world" http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/27155/eVerseID/27155

I believe the point Brother Sov was trying to make Brother DHK, is that the sacrifices only covered all of Israel, not all nations in the entire world, likewise Christ's sacrifice only covers all of spiritual Israel, not everyone in the entire world.

Yes. :thumbs::wavey:

 

[SovereignGrace]

The wheat and tares are right next to one another.

Yes.

I made a thread on that very topic here a number of years ago.

Link? Maybe I can read some of it and learn.

 

[DHK]

Huh? Whaaa? Where did I say that. Please stop telling falsehoods about my posts. That is at least twice you have done this, monsieur.

In the local churches(assemblies) there are false converts in them. To say all churches(assemblies) have only saved members is similiar to driving blindfolded. Open your eyes, in other words.

In this post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2243420&postcount=46
You said:

The local church is an assembly peoples is my point. You have some goats in a vast majority of them, I'm afraid. But Christ is the head of THE church, the 'world of believers'. He is a Shepherd of the sheep and not a goat herder.

I had already defined a local church as one that is made up of baptized believers, not just those who gather under the roof of a building. Only those who are saved and baptized are members. If he is not saved he, by default, is not a member. Thus all the members are believers (or sheep).
The Shepherd leads the sheep.
I don't believe in a universal church. The word ekklesia prevents that definition.

But your quote says "you have goats in the vast majority of them."
If there are goats in the churches of which Christ is the Shepherd, then he is a Shepherd of goats. That is what I get from your statement.
My theology prevents that type of doctrine.
He is a Shepherd of sheep; a bridegroom coming for his bride.

 

[Protestant]

It is a nice philosophy. But with Scripture taken out of context and abused it remains just that--a Calvinistic philosophy--the work of a man. There are too many errors in this mess to tackle all at once.

No, Pastor, God’s love is not a ‘mess’ nor does it contain ‘errors.’

Our Lord is calling a Bride for His Son.

His love is specific and particular.

He knows exactly who to call and how to win their affection.

Similar to your human experience, God's love is specific and particular.

Like you, the Lord doesn't marry on a whim.

Like you, the Lord is quite picky in choosing a bride.

However, His reasons for choosing the Bride of Christ, the Church, (comprised of all the Elect from the beginning of time), are different than your reasons for choosing your bride.

Your bride was delightful to your eyes and a joy to your soul.

She delighted in your company, as you did hers.

Christ’s Bride, on the other hand, was not so delightful at first.

In fact, she hated the Bridegroom and wanted nothing to do with Him.

She was quite ugly in appearance, for her soul was ravaged by the black plague of sin.

Yet Christ died for her while she was yet His enemy, unwilling to seek a physician for her sin sickness.

Unlike a human suitor who attempts to woo his sweetheart with flowers, candy and sweet talk, our Lord uses a different tact.

He sends His Spirit to that specific Elect sinner whom the Father has given Him.

The Spirit then performs a divine work of grace on that sinner’s heart and soul, engulfing him in a love indescribable; unlike any love that sinner has ever known.

As a result of God’s sovereign outpouring of gracious love, the once hateful, unwilling sinner is now more than willing to love Christ, to obey Christ, to serve Christ, to marry Christ, and even, if called to do so, to die for Christ.

Despite the insistence of Pastor DHK, God’s love is not a ‘mess’ nor does it contain ‘errors.’

 

[BrotherJoseph]

In this post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2243420&postcount=46
You said:

I had already defined a local church as one that is made up of baptized believers, not just those who gather under the roof of a building. Only those who are saved and baptized are members. If he is not saved he, by default, is not a member. Thus all the members are believers (or sheep).
The Shepherd leads the sheep.
I don't believe in a universal church. The word ekklesia prevents that definition.

But your quote says "you have goats in the vast majority of them."
If there are goats in the churches of which Christ is the Shepherd, then he is a Shepherd of goats. That is what I get from your statement.
My theology prevents that type of doctrine.
He is a Shepherd of sheep; a bridegroom coming for his bride.

I think what he meant Brother DHK is that many churches have false professors who may even be members on the books of these various local church assemblies and made a formal confession of faith and come forth and were baptized. We cannot tell who is a true believer and who is not, this will be revealed by Christ.