A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed

[savedbymercy]

This is what I said and what you are replying to:

God elected those whom he knew beforehand would believe on him. It is called omniscience.


It is also what the Bible teaches.
...being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
--The purpose of predestination is to to the praise of his glory.

Before time ever was, God so loved the world, not the elect, but the world.
It was his will that all men should be saved.
That all should come to repentance.
That no one should perish.
For he is the propitiation not for our sins only but for the sins of all the world.

In fact it is heresy, or as Peter said, a damnable heresy for those false teachers to come and teach believers of a limited atonement.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

This is a destructive (even damnable) heresy that Peter points out. Those are Peter's words, not mine. He defines limited atonement quite well and then condemns it.

God's Election is not based on seeing or knowing what a person would do, that is plainly stated in Rom 9:11 ,how can a unborn person believe? They don't exist! So your comment is invalid!

 

[Yeshua1]

This is what I said and what you are replying to:

God elected those whom he knew beforehand would believe on him. It is called omniscience.


It is also what the Bible teaches.
...being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
--The purpose of predestination is to to the praise of his glory.

Before time ever was, God so loved the world, not the elect, but the world.
It was his will that all men should be saved.
That all should come to repentance.
That no one should perish.
For he is the propitiation not for our sins only but for the sins of all the world.

In fact it is heresy, or as Peter said, a damnable heresy for those false teachers to come and teach believers of a limited atonement.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

This is a destructive (even damnable) heresy that Peter points out. Those are Peter's words, not mine. He defines limited atonement quite well and then condemns it.

Those would be unsaved persons though, wo are stating that death of Jesus was not sufficient to save someone!

And the basic truth here is that God HAS to do His work to save us first, and THEN we will be freely able to respond by faith in jesus on order to get saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

I guess per your doctrine then His will above as stated is not fulfilled?



Again, I guess God was "foiled" again in His will as we know not every human being comes to repentance?




Yet a third thing according to you that God "willed", but not only did not come to pass as some do perish, but His "will" was foiled by none other than who, puny man? This God sounds like a failure!



Brother DHK, you always post that passage in Peter on the forum as applying to your Calvinist brothers, but I am still at a lost at how you can do that, but still maintain those who believe in a limited atonement (according to your interpretation of Peter a "damnable heresy) are your brothers in Christ?

Did not know that view fell into jeresy though, as more classical arminian views of the atonement being a moral influence or non substitionary one seems to fit that better!

 

[DHK]

Those would be unsaved persons though, wo are stating that death of Jesus was not sufficient to save someone!

And the basic truth here is that God HAS to do His work to save us first, and THEN we will be freely able to respond by faith in jesus on order to get saved!

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Yes, they are obviously unsaved persons--false teachers teaching one of many damnable heresies or destructive heresies.
What is the one destructive doctrine that Peter points out that these false teachers are insidiously introducing into the church?
They are introducing that destructive heresy of limited atonement denying the doctrine that Christ paid the penalty for the unsaved--even false teachers as them.

There they were--false teachers proclaiming they weren't saved because Christ didn't die for them. His blood wasn't sufficient enough to cover their sin. It wasn't sufficient to cover all the sins of all the people! How do you know it was sufficient to cover yours.
If you are a Calvinist how can you really know that you are one of the elect?
How do you know? Perhaps it is you that are among the non-elect, and it is you that the blood of Christ does not cover. How can you know for sure?
On what basis?

The non-Cal says that the basis of his being the elect is belief, faith. God looks down and knows who will believe. Those who have believed are the elect. But you don't know if you are one of the elect, do you? You have no way of knowing.

 

[DHK]

I guess per your doctrine then His will above as stated is not fulfilled?

It was never God's will that man become a terrorist; but man have.
It was not God's will that David number the nation of Israel but he did, and paid for it.
It was not God's will that Cain murder Abel. God told him not to. But he went and did it any way.
--Your belief obviously makes God the author of sin and evil, and attributes every evil action to God, lifting all the sinful and evil responsibilities of man and puts them squarely on God. Man is not responsible for his sin any longer; it is God's fault you say. Astounding! But that is the result of a denial of free will.

Again, I guess God was "foiled" again in His will as we know not every human being comes to repentance?

No, and Judas didn't even have the free will to betray Judas did he?
God forced him to do it. It was decreed by God; he had no choice. He was simply a puppet in the grand scheme of things. No responsibility can be attributed to him either for free will is denied.

Yet a third thing according to you that God "willed", but not only did not come to pass as some do perish, but His "will" was foiled by none other than who, puny man? This God sounds like a failure!

Does God's will always come to pass?
Of course not. Many perish, in spite of God's will. See above.
Abel perished "physically" by the hand of Cain.
Cain perished "spiritually" by the hand of God.
Neither was God's will.

Brother DHK, you always post that passage in Peter on the forum as applying to your Calvinist brothers, but I am still at a lost at how you can do that, but still maintain those who believe in a limited atonement (according to your interpretation of Peter a "damnable heresy) are your brothers in Christ?

Does "always" always mean "always"? Or do I sometimes not refer to that passage at all?

The subject of the statement in context is "false teachers."
If the subject of the statement were "brothers in Christ," you might have a case, but it isn't, and therefore you don't.

The word "damnable" is better rendered "destructive"
The word "heresy" is a word that means "causes division."

I have never seen anything that causes so much destructive division in fundamental churches as someone that comes into a church and start spreading the doctrine of Calvinism, which eventually ends up splitting the church. It has happened many times here.

 

[Protestant]

A simple explanation of 1 John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

In my previous post I dared make the connection between God’s love and our faith.

This raised the irascible ire of Pastor DHK, who will go to any lengths to refute the biblical truth that faith is God’s gift to the Elect, purchased by Christ’s blood for the Elect, which is then effectually applied by the Holy Spirit to the Elect, according to the time, place and manner decreed by the eternal will of God.

The cause of our faith is God’s love for us, not willing that any of His Elect should perish, but that all should come to the acknowledging of the truth.

This acknowledging of the truth, Paul tells us, is called ‘the faith of the Elect.’ (Titus 1:1)

The faith of the Elect differs from the faith of the non-Elect.

The former is spiritual, believing all things. (1 Cor. 13:7)

The latter is carnal, believing lies; incapable of believing spiritual truths. (1 Cor. 2:14; 1 John 2:2)

Many religious, including leaders, have not the faith of the Elect.

This spiritual truth is presented to us in irrefutable terms by the numerous NT examples of the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes who were at perpetual enmity against Christ.

Persecutions by professing Christians throughout Church history confirm nothing has changed……..
…….which brings us back to the question at hand.

Who is telling the truth?

If Christ propitiated every sin of every human being, as our adversaries propose, then according to 1 John 1 that sacrificial love of God toward men would bear the fruit of obedience to His commandments.

Please read the cited Scripture carefully.

There is a distinct and inexorable connection between Christ’s propitiation for men and their obedience to His commandments.

Those for whom Christ died, paying their sin debt in full, will respond in obedience to His commands.

It is they who know God personally, experientially and spiritually.

Those who claim to be Christians, yet do not obey His commandments, are liars.

Therefore, Christ did not die in their stead, nor did He satisfy their sin debt.

What is the initial commandment of the Gospel?

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:14-15)

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (John 14:15 ESV)

As I dared state in my previous post, believing on Christ is an act of love on our part.

Placing faith in Christ is essential to salvation.

Furthermore, believing on Christ is an act of obedience.

Obedience to Christ proves our love for Christ.

But our faith, love and obedience did not originate with ourselves.

They are the effect, not the cause of God’s love for us.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

We love him because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

John reiterates the eternal truth stated in his first chapter.

Our love for Christ; our obedience to Christ; our faith in Christ; our knowing Christ, is all the direct result of God’s loving us with an unfathomable love that required His Son to make full payment of our sins, thus satisfying the justice of God.

Those who remain in disbelief, though they claim Christ as their own, are liars.

Christ did not make propitiation for them.

Nor was it ever the purpose of God to do so.

The realization and belief in the truth that we were chosen for salvation by the love, mercy and grace of God alone in Jesus Christ when we did not deserve it are cause for all Christians to disavow any contribution to saving graces, whether they be repentance, faith, belief in the truth, the will to believe, justification, sanctification, good works, holiness, etc.

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36 ESV)

 

[savedbymercy]

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Thats the Elect, the Whole World of them !

 

[DHK]

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

In my previous post I dared make the connection between God’s love and our faith.

This raised the irascible ire of Pastor DHK, who will go to any lengths to refute the biblical truth that faith is God’s gift to the Elect, purchased by Christ’s blood for the Elect, which is then effectually applied by the Holy Spirit to the Elect, according to the time, place and manner decreed by the eternal will of God.

The cause of our faith is God’s love for us, not willing that any of His Elect should perish, but that all should come to the acknowledging of the truth.

This acknowledging of the truth, Paul tells us, is called ‘the faith of the Elect.’ (Titus 1:1)

The faith of the Elect differs from the faith of the non-Elect.

The former is spiritual, believing all things. (1 Cor. 13:7)

The latter is carnal, believing lies; incapable of believing spiritual truths. (1 Cor. 2:14; 1 John 2:2)

Many religious, including leaders, have not the faith of the Elect.

This spiritual truth is presented to us in irrefutable terms by the numerous NT examples of the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes who were at perpetual enmity against Christ.

Persecutions by professing Christians throughout Church history confirm nothing has changed……..
…….which brings us back to the question at hand.

Who is telling the truth?

If Christ propitiated every sin of every human being, as our adversaries propose, then according to 1 John 1 that sacrificial love of God toward men would bear the fruit of obedience to His commandments.

Please read the cited Scripture carefully.

There is a distinct and inexorable connection between Christ’s propitiation for men and their obedience to His commandments.

Those for whom Christ died, paying their sin debt in full, will respond in obedience to His commands.

It is they who know God personally, experientially and spiritually.

Those who claim to be Christians, yet do not obey His commandments, are liars.

Therefore, Christ did not die in their stead, nor did He satisfy their sin debt.

What is the initial commandment of the Gospel?

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (Mark 1:14-15)

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (John 14:15 ESV)

As I dared state in my previous post, believing on Christ is an act of love on our part.

Placing faith in Christ is essential to salvation.

Furthermore, believing on Christ is an act of obedience.

Obedience to Christ proves our love for Christ.

But our faith, love and obedience did not originate with ourselves.

They are the effect, not the cause of God’s love for us.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

We love him because he first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

John reiterates the eternal truth stated in his first chapter.

Our love for Christ; our obedience to Christ; our faith in Christ; our knowing Christ, is all the direct result of God’s loving us with an unfathomable love that required His Son to make full payment of our sins, thus satisfying the justice of God.

Those who remain in disbelief, though they claim Christ as their own, are liars.

Christ did not make propitiation for them.

Nor was it ever the purpose of God to do so.

The realization and belief in the truth that we were chosen for salvation by the love, mercy and grace of God alone in Jesus Christ when we did not deserve it are cause for all Christians to disavow any contribution to saving graces, whether they be repentance, faith, belief in the truth, the will to believe, justification, sanctification, good works, holiness, etc.

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36 ESV)

It is a nice philosophy. But with Scripture taken out of context and abused it remains just that--a Calvinistic philosophy--the work of a man. There are too many errors in this mess to tackle all at once.

 

[savedbymercy]

If you love me, you will keep my commandments. (John 14:15 ESV)

All for whom He Lived and died do keep His Commandments, He kept them for them ! Christ kept all the Commandments of God for them He Lived and died for. Do you believe that Christ obeyed the Law of God perfectly that He was made under ? Gal 4:4

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

 

[DHK]

All for whom He Lived and died do keep His Commandments, He kept them for them ! Christ kept all the Commandments of God for them He Lived and died for. Do you believe that Christ obeyed the Law of God perfectly that He was made under ? Gal 4:4

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Yes, and he became the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.
--Hmmm, "the sin of the world"? I wonder why John should mention that?
Maybe because it is true?? Maybe because Christ just did take away the sin of the world, and John didn't tell a lie? Or do you accuse the Holy Spirit of lying?

 

[Rebel]

After reading all this, and other such stuff, I don't see how anyone can doubt that Calvinism is just as bad as Romanism. In fact, it is worse. At least Romanism doesn't make God the author and creator of evil.

 

[savedbymercy]

Yes, and he became the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.
--Hmmm, "the sin of the world"? I wonder why John should mention that?
Maybe because it is true?? Maybe because Christ just did take away the sin of the world, and John didn't tell a lie? Or do you accuse the Holy Spirit of lying?

The world of the Elect!

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is a nice philosophy. But with Scripture taken out of context and abused it remains just that--a Calvinistic philosophy--the work of a man. There are too many errors in this mess to tackle all at once.

Oh non, mon ami, oh but non. It is filled with biblical truth, monsieur. You fail to grasp it, that is all. We will take a walk down 'Biblical Lane' together and I will show you some things. In Leviticus 16 we can read where Aaron was to “When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.[vss 20-22] Now, on the surface it appears this is a case for universal atonement. But there is way much more to this small passage that easily refutes that ideology. Where is the Philistines' atonement? The Edomites? Hivites? Hittites? Jebusites? Kohathites?

This atonement was made for Isreael alone. Now you may say all of Israel were 'atoned' for if only they, by their free will, will accept it. But this passage does not bear that fruit, monsieur. Why do I make this claim, you may ask? We can also read I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”[Rom. 11:25-27] If all of Israel shall be saved, how did many suffer death through the wrath of one Adolph Hitler? They died not believing Jesus was their Messiah, yet all Israel shall be saved? All of Israel that shall be saved is in reference to the church, the church He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.[Acts 7:38] Christ, by the Sovereign's will, took a human form, came and lived a sinless life, and in this sinless life, fulfilled the whole Law, including every not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen(jot and tittle in KJV{Matt. 5:18}). He lived this sinless life for His bride, the church. In Hosea you can see that eventhough Gomer was his bride, he still had to buy her back. That was us, mon ami. We were His bride bought back for 30 pieces of silver, the same price Hosea paid for Gomer.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, and he became the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.
--Hmmm, "the sin of the world"? I wonder why John should mention that?
Maybe because it is true?? Maybe because Christ just did take away the sin of the world, and John didn't tell a lie? Or do you accuse the Holy Spirit of lying?

If Jesus did, in fact, take away the sin of the world, then why are not every one saved, monsieur? This is the crux of our debate, non? Look again at Lev. 16. The Scapegoat actually took their sins into the wilderness. Jesus died for His bride, the church, as Eph. 5:25 attests.

So if He atoned for everyone's sins, and you have conceeded that not everyone will hear the gospel and know that Jesus ever existed, then how did He atone, bring reconciliation to them, those who died without the gospel or knowing of His existance? You have a gaping hole in your theology, mon ami.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

It was never God's will that man become a terrorist; but man have. .

God declares, "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11), thus it was God's will.

In Peter’s second letter, in a verse you are fond of quoting, he brings out that “there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. (2:1-2)” Did those false prophets get to be among the people without it being in God's will? Ezekiel says: “And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (14:9)”

It was not God's will that David number the nation of Israel but he did, and paid for it..

Incorrect. In the book of Second Samuel it says: “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1) However it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” This verse is as much Scripture and truth as the previous verse quote, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel.

It was not God's will that Cain murder Abel. God told him not to. But he went and did it any way...

Wrong again! In fact, it was God's will that the nation of Israel kill all the prophets that were sent to them and killed according to Christ. "34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." (Matthew 23:34-35). The key word that shows why these prophets were slayed is the first word in verse 35 "that" in Greek is the word "hopós" and according to Strong's Concordance it's definition is "in order that" (see http://biblehub.com/greek/3704.htm ). In other words, the reason that they were slain was "in order that" their blood would "come" upon the Jews, was God unrighteous for willing that this happen for this purpose? God forbid! Also notice Abel's name is specifically mentioned.

--Your belief obviously makes God the author of sin and evil, and attributes every evil action to God, lifting all the sinful and evil responsibilities of man and puts them squarely on God. Man is not responsible for his sin any longer; it is God's fault you say. Astounding! But that is the result of a denial of free will. ...

When min sin, they do so by choice as a result of their sinful nature, thus God is not the author of sin.

--No, and Judas didn't even have the free will to betray Judas did he?
God forced him to do it. It was decreed by God; he had no choice. He was simply a puppet in the grand scheme of things. No responsibility can be attributed to him either for free will is denied. ...

Judas' acted by choice out of his own wicked nature, but it was ordained of God that it would happen is apparent again according to scripture, yet he was also held accountable for his act. " For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” (Mark 14:21)

Moreover, scripture states further it was God's will that the men come to arrest Jesus, "55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."(Matthew 26:55-56).

The very act of the crucifixion by Christ's enemies was ordained of God, " Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" (Acts 2:23). Yet, notice though it was done according to God's "determinate counsel" the men who did it are still accountable and said to have "wicked hands". They did not do it in order to fulfill God's will, though it did, they did it because they were evil men. That is was done according to God's will is seen a second time, "27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:27-28)

--Does God's will always come to pass?...

Yes it does, proof? Ephesians 1:11. God controls things so small and minute as the numbers rolled on a pair of dice. "The dice are thrown into the lap, but their every decision is from the Lord" (Proverbs 16:33)

Even the wicked were created for a purpose, "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4). Does not scripture teach that even the disobedient were "appointed" unto such? It indeed does, "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed (1 Peter 2:8)

--I have never seen anything that causes so much destructive division in fundamental churches as someone that comes into a church and start spreading the doctrine of Calvinism, which eventually ends up splitting the church. It has happened many times here.

I do not believe Calvinists should join or try to influence a church that does not hold to the doctrines of grace or vica versa regarding those joining a church that does believe in the doctrines of grace.

Now regarding the verse in Peter that you claim is referencing those who believe and teach in a limited atonement, you pretty much have implied without explicitly saying that all Calvinist and doctrine of grace teachers are unsaved! This is an unbelievable assertion to make regarding one who trusts solely in Christ's sacrifice for their eternal destiny! I give you the opportunity to deny this is what you believe in your next post, but if you don't, I will assume I have concluded correctly regarding your implications. I consider you a brother even so.

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Oh non, mon ami, oh but non. It is filled with biblical truth, monsieur. You fail to grasp it, that is all. We will take a walk down 'Biblical Lane' together and I will show you some things. In Leviticus 16 we can read where Aaron was to “When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.[vss 20-22] Now, on the surface it appears this is a case for universal atonement. But there is way much more to this small passage that easily refutes that ideology. Where is the Philistines' atonement? The Edomites? Hivites? Hittites? Jebusites? Kohathites? This atonement was made for Isreael alone. .

Excellent post. :thumbsup: All of Israel was atoned for by the sacrifice, but as you pointed out the rest of the world did not have such an atonement, in a similar manner the lamb of Passover was put outside the doors of the Israelites to save them, but the lamb did not cover the Egyptian first born as all of them were killed. "And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead" (Exodus 12:30). The lamb was limited to the Jews and is symbolic of Christ who's atonement is limited to the elect. You do realize though that trying to convince good old brother DHK of these truths is a losing battle?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

If Jesus did, in fact, take away the sin of the world, then why are not every one saved, monsieur? This is the crux of our debate, non? Look again at Lev. 16. The Scapegoat actually took their sins into the wilderness. Jesus died for His bride, the church, as Eph. 5:25 attests.

So if He atoned for everyone's sins, and you have conceeded that not everyone will hear the gospel and know that Jesus ever existed, then how did He atone, bring reconciliation to them, those who died without the gospel or knowing of His existance? You have a gaping hole in your theology, mon ami.

I have been down this road with brother DHK brother Sovereign, I predict he is going to tell you those that go to Hell do so as a result of unbelief and rejecting Christ's ransom. He will then give you a worldly example that he has of a man who refused a ransom and thus stayed in prison. The flaw in his theology is he is reasoning that God's justice is similar to man's in making such a comparison.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Excellent post. :thumbsup: All of Israel was atoned for by the sacrifice, but as you pointed out the rest of the world did not have such an atonement, in a similar manner the lamb of Passover was put outside the doors of the Israelites to save them, but the lamb did not cover the Egyptian first born as all of them were killed. "And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead" (Exodus 12:30). The lamb was limited to the Jews and is symbolic of Christ who's atonement is limited to the elect. You do realize though that trying to convince good old brother DHK of these truths is a losing battle?

Thank you for the kind words.

You are correct about Ex. 12. The atonement brought with it reconciliation, which is actually restoration. Adam, the first Adam, severed his walk(and subsequently our's) with God in the Garden, and He ran them out of there. Yes, God made a covering for him and Eve, but their walk with God was never the same again. The last Adam, Christ, brought reconciliation, restoration in His redemptive work upon the cross. Now, go to 2 Cor. 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. The universalist has a two-fold problem that needs addressed. If God was in Christ(not saying He was not) reconciling the world, then how are those who never knew Jesus existed given the message of reconciliation? Then one verse prior we can read All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: So how can those who died in remote areas go to hell for rejecting Him, if they never knew He existed? And if God was not counting people's sins against them, then why and how are people going to hell? If you go to court and they drop all charges against you, you are a free man, and free to walk away. The same with not counting people's sins against them. If their sins are not counted against them, then they were charged to Christ, the church's Sinbearer. So the universal atonement peoples have gaping holes in the theology.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have been down this road with brother DHK brother Sovereign, I predict he is going to tell you those that go to Hell do so as a result of unbelief and rejecting Christ's ransom. He will then give you a worldly example that he has of a man who refused a ransom and thus stayed in prison. The flaw in his theology is he is reasoning that God's justice is similar to man's in making such a comparison.

People go to hell because they are sinners, nothing more, nothing less. A Brother once told that God has to call everyone or He is not being fair. What is Him being fair(just) would have been to toss my keyster in hell the very second I was conceived. But oh thank Him for His mercy. People confuse fairness with mercy.

 

[DHK]

The world of the Elect!

But it doesn't say that! You add to the Scriptures.
Do you know what God says about adding to the Scriptures?
Do you know who else has added to the Scriptures.
Bob Ryan's group is one such group that have added to the Scriptures.