off topic:
Please post to the OP
Please post to the OP
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A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed
- Thread starter Protestant
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off topic; Please post to the OP
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show this alleged language...I just cut and paste what you posted
I made no personal attack....I cut and paste what others said...directly, then what you said....
you removed it because it shows how you attack Cals everyday.
It is unrelated to this thread.
You never showed where you got the post from (thread and post#.
It has nothing to do with this discussion.
It was used as your own personal rant.
It served no positive purpose.
Such posts will henceforth be deleted.
If you are not willing to contribute in a positive way to the thread then please don't post.
DHK
I copied and pasted from this thread alone....how is that unrelated?
It was all from this thread...it was a recap of what others said....I did not even say anything here accept to agree with other posters.
sure it does, it has everything to do with this thread....I supported what others said in this thread......then I showed your responses in one post so we could see who was on topic and who was not..
post it again...I will show it clearly-
it brought clarity to the real issue
if someone is going to delete posts it should not be you when you are causing the friction with your anti cal statements..... a neutral moderator should step in-
it is a conflict of interest on your part that you are censoring posters....
I contribute and others like it.....you do not, so you remove what I post????
then give an infraction when you speak directly against cals in every thread.
I copied and pasted from this thread alone....how is that unrelated?
It was all from this thread...it was a recap of what others said....I did not even say anything here accept to agree with other posters.
sure it does, it has everything to do with this thread....I supported what others said in this thread......then I showed your responses in one post so we could see who was on topic and who was not..
post it again...I will show it clearly-
it brought clarity to the real issue
if someone is going to delete posts it should not be you when you are causing the friction with your anti cal statements..... a neutral moderator should step in-
it is a conflict of interest on your part that you are censoring posters....
.
I contribute and others like it.....you do not, so you remove what I post????
then give an infraction when you speak directly against cals in every thread.
This thread is 19 pages long, which makes how many posts? You quote randomly not giving post # nor page #, and thus no context. Therefore what you say is entirely out of context and has no real meaning except to use as a personal attack. What are you trying to prove?
If you don't have anything to contribute to the thread in a positive way then don't post. This type of post is considered trolling.
Others?? You mean by others it was quoting from Rippon? That is "others"?
Post it again and I will delete it again along with the consequences.
Clearly! A vendetta; a personal attack; nothing to do with the OP.
FYI, Here is the OP
Nothing you said had anything to do with the above post; nothing.
It was all malicious.
This is the end of this discussion. Don't waste space by answering to it.
If you have any questions pm me.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Pastor DHK wrote:
In order to justify God as a fair, equal-opportunity God who has no favorites, our Pelagian/Arminian friends insist God goes only so far when it comes to man’s salvation.
Once God has done His part He leaves it up to man to do his part.
Though God knows the doomed eternal outcome of all mankind’s destiny without the intervention of His saving grace and mercy, our opponents teach the ‘by free-will man accepts or rejects the gift of Christ’ doctrine.
According to their doctrines God is passive, allowing man’s decision to ultimately rule his destiny.
But does our all-wise God really need further proof of the actual state of sinful man’s will before He can elect or reject?
Is there anything our omniscient, all-wise God need know before He elects believers and reprobates unbelievers?
Adam, who actually had free-will, failed in obedience.
Israel, blessed with Christ’s miraculous ministry in person, failed in obedience.
Christ’s disciples were also killed because of the Gospel message they preached.
The history of Christian witnesses throughout the ages is one of persecution, torture and murder.
Yet our Pelagian and Arminian friends believe that God allows man the ‘choice’ to believe or not believe.
They refuse to admit the biblical and extra-biblical historical record which gives us thousands of years of evidence as to the likelihood man will, of his own volition, choose the Prince of Peace over the Prince of Darkness.
The likelihood…….? Zilch, nada, zero.
Mind you, the truth of man’s cruel, cold-blooded, God-hating nature needs not a long, complex theological discourse as proof.
There is no fear of God before their eyes, says it all. (Romans 3:18)
Where there is no fear/reverence of the true God there is no faith in the true God.
Therefore, knowing full well the miserable, darkened, sin sick hearts and souls of mankind, God has gracious purposed to deliver a people from a destiny of doom and damnation.
To do so, He first determines those He wills to save.
His choice is not based on anything in man which might be deserving of mercy and grace.
His choice is the result of the good pleasure, purpose and counsel of His own will. (Eph. 1:5, 9, 11)
This is why Paul makes the specific point that God chose/elected Jacob over Esau before either had the opportunity to display a virtuous or sinister character, thereby moving God to elect or reject. (Romans 9:11)
Our Pelagian/Arminians friends insist it was from God’s omniscient foreknowledge that God ‘foreknew’ Jacob would choose Christ, and therefore elected him.
But such is not the biblical record.
He first elected Jacob to be saved by Jesus Christ and then created his life story to reach that very end.
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalm 139:16 NIV)
Our Lord always starts from the end He purposes to achieve and then works all things from the beginning to infallibly achieve those very purposes.
‘Being conformed to the image of His Son’ is the ultimate end for all those Jews and Gentiles elected and called according to the eternal purpose of God in Christ.
In order to achieve that end the Father has predestined the means: effectual calling and effectual justification which will infallibly lead to certain glorification. (Romans 8:28-30)
Paul adds, What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? (verse 31)
In other words, what God has determined, decreed and purposed in eternity will assuredly, certainly, most definitely come to pass in time.
That divine assurance comes not from the will of man who ‘accepts’ Jesus.
Rather, that assurance comes from the will of God who cannot fail to achieve all His purposes.
Is it a monstrous God who graciously and mercifully chooses to save some of His enemies, while leaving the rest in their sins?
Or is it a loving and compassionate God who displays unparalleled grace and love in Jesus Christ in order to save some of those who deserve only condemnation?
In order to justify God as a fair, equal-opportunity God who has no favorites, our Pelagian/Arminian friends insist God goes only so far when it comes to man’s salvation.
Once God has done His part He leaves it up to man to do his part.
Though God knows the doomed eternal outcome of all mankind’s destiny without the intervention of His saving grace and mercy, our opponents teach the ‘by free-will man accepts or rejects the gift of Christ’ doctrine.
According to their doctrines God is passive, allowing man’s decision to ultimately rule his destiny.
But does our all-wise God really need further proof of the actual state of sinful man’s will before He can elect or reject?
Is there anything our omniscient, all-wise God need know before He elects believers and reprobates unbelievers?
Adam, who actually had free-will, failed in obedience.
Israel, blessed with Christ’s miraculous ministry in person, failed in obedience.
Christ’s disciples were also killed because of the Gospel message they preached.
The history of Christian witnesses throughout the ages is one of persecution, torture and murder.
Yet our Pelagian and Arminian friends believe that God allows man the ‘choice’ to believe or not believe.
They refuse to admit the biblical and extra-biblical historical record which gives us thousands of years of evidence as to the likelihood man will, of his own volition, choose the Prince of Peace over the Prince of Darkness.
The likelihood…….? Zilch, nada, zero.
Mind you, the truth of man’s cruel, cold-blooded, God-hating nature needs not a long, complex theological discourse as proof.
There is no fear of God before their eyes, says it all. (Romans 3:18)
Where there is no fear/reverence of the true God there is no faith in the true God.
Therefore, knowing full well the miserable, darkened, sin sick hearts and souls of mankind, God has gracious purposed to deliver a people from a destiny of doom and damnation.
To do so, He first determines those He wills to save.
His choice is not based on anything in man which might be deserving of mercy and grace.
His choice is the result of the good pleasure, purpose and counsel of His own will. (Eph. 1:5, 9, 11)
This is why Paul makes the specific point that God chose/elected Jacob over Esau before either had the opportunity to display a virtuous or sinister character, thereby moving God to elect or reject. (Romans 9:11)
Our Pelagian/Arminians friends insist it was from God’s omniscient foreknowledge that God ‘foreknew’ Jacob would choose Christ, and therefore elected him.
But such is not the biblical record.
He first elected Jacob to be saved by Jesus Christ and then created his life story to reach that very end.
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalm 139:16 NIV)
Our Lord always starts from the end He purposes to achieve and then works all things from the beginning to infallibly achieve those very purposes.
‘Being conformed to the image of His Son’ is the ultimate end for all those Jews and Gentiles elected and called according to the eternal purpose of God in Christ.
In order to achieve that end the Father has predestined the means: effectual calling and effectual justification which will infallibly lead to certain glorification. (Romans 8:28-30)
Paul adds, What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? (verse 31)
In other words, what God has determined, decreed and purposed in eternity will assuredly, certainly, most definitely come to pass in time.
That divine assurance comes not from the will of man who ‘accepts’ Jesus.
Rather, that assurance comes from the will of God who cannot fail to achieve all His purposes.
Is it a monstrous God who graciously and mercifully chooses to save some of His enemies, while leaving the rest in their sins?
Or is it a loving and compassionate God who displays unparalleled grace and love in Jesus Christ in order to save some of those who deserve only condemnation?
:applause: :applause:YES!!!!!!!! :applause: :applause:
Absolutely. He died upon the cross. While taking his last breathe He cried out: "It is finished," signifying there is nothing more to be done. Salvation was complete. It was done. His death had atoned for the sins of mankind. There was nothing that man could do to merit salvation.
However, after rising from the dead victory was complete and salvation was secured. It was now a gift to be offered to man--that whosoever believeth on him should be saved.
Salvation is all of God. But it must be received by faith.
Calvinism teaches the horrible doctrine of reprobation that even though man would know the gospel, have the opportunity to believe the gospel, God would not allow him to believe the gospel because he is "hated" from the beginning of time. No wonder the heathen look upon the religion of Calvinism with disdain.
No Calvinist on this board has given me an honest answer yet:
How do you know for absolutely sure that you are one of the elect?
How can you be sure?
God is never passive. He is always active: pleading, inviting, calling them that are not saved to come to him.
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
Heb_7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him,
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
--Jesus weeps over Jerusalem and its inhabitants. Time and again they heard him but turned in unbelief.
--Yes, God doesn't force salvation on mankind. Man chooses whether or not he wants to accept God's offer of salvation.
God doesn't need anything! Does Calvin think God is in need (and thus the God of Calvinism)? Why do you think God is in need? I certainly don't!
How many straw-men are in your closet?
Or are you suggesting you believe in a different God than I that isn't omniscient?
Is this a great theological discovery that you just made?
These truths are all the more significant in the light of God's command to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." They were killed because of the preaching of the gospel, not because of the doctrines of predestination and election.
The heart of the gospel runs contrary to the heart of Calvinism.
The gospel states: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Calvinism states: You can't believe because I, the Lord, said you can't.
The Calvinist believe that God's sovereignty is not great enough; not powerful enough to allow for the free will of man--that if God should allow man the choice to reject or receive Christ then man might just foil the plans of God and God would fail. Their concept of God is not a very high concept but rather a very weak and frail concept of God.
Of course you have absolute historical proof to back this up?? The population today is 7 billion. The accumulative populations of successive generations of people going back to the time of Christ would have to be interviewed.
Scripture is easily taken out of context, and even more easily pitted against one another making it say something it doesn't.
God commanded
"Love your neighbor as yourself," even to the unsaved.
He also commanded, "to all men everywhere, repent!"
And. "Seek the Lord while he may yet be found."
--And if he didn't give these commands in full knowledge that man was able of obeying him, then He is a cruel monster isn't he. But then that is how Calvin portrays God, isn't it?
The character of God is not based on the history of Israel.
Again "the record" or "history" does not determine one's theology.
But that is not true is it. Jacob was chosen over and above Esau. But that is all. You are reading NT terms into an OT story, and then you are extracting human responsibility out of the history of the man.
Nonsense. Whether right or wrong:
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
--You do not know the ways and thoughts of the Lord. Why do you claim to know his ways and thoughts? Absurd arrogance.
"to be conformed to the image of His Son" is the purpose God has for every Christian.
But you do not know those things which are determine and decreed. That is the absurdity of Calvinism; he thinks he knows as much as God does. Pay attention to Isa.55:8,9.
Assurance comes from faith in Christ.
How do you know for sure that you are one of the elect? How can you be sure?
A. Does it come from doing the will of God. You mean keeping the law--a religion of works?
B. Does it come from the sovereign will of God which you cannot know, (Isa.55:8,9). In that case, How do you know you are one of the elect? Where does your assurance come from?
From Dave Hunt:
:applause::applause::applause::applause:
Protestant
Well-Known Member
I thought it best to begin here for my response and repudiation.
All mature Christians are to know the ways and thoughts of the Lord – especially those in positions of authority.
The ways and thoughts of the Lord pertaining to salvation, man’s duties and damnation are spelled out in His Word, the Holy Bible.
His Word is a lamp unto our feet, a light unto our path. (Ps. 119:105)
There are secrets which are hidden in God, but……………….
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29)
We Christians have the mind of Christ:
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor. 2:16)
We Christians have the promise of Christ that He will make known to us all things:
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. (John 15:15)
Spiritual understanding of the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven is only revealed to the Elect:
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Matt. 13:10-11)
Christ is quite clear.
Spiritual understanding of God’s ways and thoughts require Holy Ghost insight.
That supernatural insight is not given all men.
Those to whom it is given are called ‘blessed’:
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. (Matt. 13:16)
Those who would rather shut their eyes and ears to spiritual truth are left to their own devices. (Matt. 13:15)
In fact, it is the Father’s good pleasure to keep these mysteries hidden from the wise and prudent religious, choosing instead to reveal them to ‘babes’ – i.e., the unsophisticated, humble believer who may not possess a religious degree of any kind (including fishermen):
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight (Matt. 11:25-26)
It is quite obvious to many on this board that Dave Hunt’s eyes and ears were shut quite tight.
Election of grace is but one mystery which many of us understand, preach and fervently embrace.
We are not ignorant that this divine doctrine brought with it the wrath of men against Christ, Paul, the Apostles and all the Reformers who added immeasurably to our knowledge of this God-honoring, God-glorifying doctrine.
TO BE CONTINUED
Spiritual understanding of God’s ways and thoughts require Holy Ghost insight.
--Even with the Holy Spirit, this statement is not true as it reads.
Perhaps more accurately, one may know his will, his direction, and as far as he understands the Word, yes. But to know God's ways and thoughts are entirely contrary to the Word of God.
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
--It is a rhetorical question, and the answer is no one!!
But you quote scripture out of context "we have the mind of Christ," and think you know the very thoughts of God. Quite an amazing feat for mortal man to claim the omniscience of God.
I cut to the chase. Nothing, absolutely nothing in Ephesians 2:8 supports your anti-biblical campaign about auto-salvation. The text says nothing about "what one can DO for themselves."
And your oft-repeated claim that this and other texts have nothing to do with faith is as repugnant as it gets.
See also 2 Peter 1:1:
"To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior received a faith as precious as ours."
They received faith from God. It wasn't an innate ability they had to draw upon themselves.
Philippians 1:29 :
"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him.'
It was granted or given to them to believe in Christ. They had no strength or ability they was present within their own persons. To believe on him means to have faith in him --God gave this faith.
In Acts 18:27 it says that Apollos "was a great help to those who by grace had believed."
By the grace of God they had been given faith to believe.
DHK: YOU are the Bible Butcher. YOU are making the astounding claims. YOU are the one making false conclusions.
You were given the position of a mod and yet use it to further anti-scriptural positions.
If you are a Christian you didn't generate faith to believe in Christ. God gave you the faith to believe because of and through his grace. You were in an unregenerate state and he gave you faith and repentance. To fight against these truths of God's Word puts you in a precarious position.
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Protestant
Well-Known Member
I will let the Word of God respond, Re: God's thoughts:
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. (Jer. 29:11)
As Christians we now know the thoughts of God toward us as revealed by His Spirit through His Word.
As Christians we now know the thoughts of God toward the unbelievers:
The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. (Psalm 11:5 ESV)
As Christians we now know the ways of the Lord:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way (John 14:6)
And His ways are neither laborious nor burdensome.
They give rest to the Christian's soul. (Matt. 11:28-30)
Protestant
Well-Known Member
The context of Romans 11:34 refers to the eternal election of grace, the subject of Romans 9-11.
No man knows why the Elect are chosen to be inheritors of eternal life in Christ when they are no better than those whom He prefers to withhold necessary saving grace.
God has His reasons.
And they are good reasons, you can be sure.
For He does nothing and purposes nothing but only that which has wise, righteous and holy intentions.
His eternal intention is to save certain individuals, but does not disclose the reasons for His choices.
Election predicated upon foreseen faith is a fabrication of those who detest God's election of grace.
Nor does God choose to reveal the identity of those elected until after the fact.
They are part of the ‘secret things of God.’
Who would have guessed Saul the Christ Killer would regenerate into Paul the Christ Lover?
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
P.S. The Holy Spirit does reveal some characteristics by which we can make semi-educated guesses as to the identity of the Elect, as well as the Reprobate:
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: (1 Cor. 1:26-28)
By using these characteristics, as well as the many negative characteristics which identify lying false professors, we can with good cause and all assurance eliminate the most religious officeholder in the world as being among the Elect, being instead numbered among the Reprobate: the Pope of Rome who holds the office of the Papacy.
:applause::applause: YES!!! :applause::applause:
If you had an ounce of decency in you, you would respect the fact that I am a non-Cal, which does not automatically mean I am "anti-Biblical." But sanity, decency, and honest intellectual debate are apparently not within your capacity.
The text:
And this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
An explanation from Walvoord (you don't accept mine) :
Of course, this has been my position all along. I have never deviated from it.
Repugnance belongs to those who don't know how to debate.
--Your name calling and personal attacks was so admired by another poster that he took them and re-posted them thinking that he was adding something positive to the thread. They had to be deleted of course.
There is a thread on "context" in the Baptist theology section. Perhaps you should read it. What is the context here? Who is Paul writing to:
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
--To those who "have (already) obtained like precious faith..."
--It is not about the unsaved, but the saved. I never said anything about the Lord giving faith to the saved. The Lord doesn't give faith to the unsaved, the unregenerate in order to believe the gospel. Stick with the subject. If you don't understand what I have said then how can you refute it?
Nonsense! If he gave them faith did he give them suffering as well?
Was suffering a requirement for salvation? Yes or no?
If not, the verse is teaching that suffering (as well as continuing to believe or walking a life of faith) is a privilege we have as believers. He is writing to believers not about salvation, but about the Christian walk.
Suffering is not a requirement for salvation. Or, is that what you teach?
You added your own words here. That is not what it says. Why add to the scriptures. By grace they believed. Salvation is by grace. No contradiction here. Check Eph.2:8. You are simply adding to the Word (like a J.W. would) to get your own twisted interpretation.
Here comes the personal attacks again. You don't know how to debate so you resort to ad hominems.
I am a non-Cal as all know, but to you I am a "Bible Butcher" because I am not a Calvinist. Nice.
Again, I am not a Calvinist, so therefore my teaching is false, and I make false conclusions. You are so kind! I wonder if some poster will copy and paste the same personal attacks here with a string of thumbs up??
The position of Mod does not come with a caveat that:
--he cannot post or debate.
--that he must be a Calvinist and agree to everything that Rippon demands!
Note again, because I am a non-Cal, Rippon states that I am anti-Scriptural instead of respecting the position I hold. As a non-Cal I don't believe Calvinism to be the scriptural position. This truth is self-evident and need not be repeated over and over again.
--An endless stream of strawmen coming forth from the treasure of Rippon!
--A display of ignorance about the nature of faith is also shown.
To believe that God would give the unregenerate either the fruit of the Spirit of spiritual gifts is astounding and quite close to heresy, yet this is Calvinistic teaching. Does God also give Divine love (agape), Divine wisdom, and even the spiritual ability of divine discernment to the unregenerate? Why not? If he gives divine faith, why not give all the gifts of the Spirit and fruit of the Spirit to the ungodly? How much more error do you believe?
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