A few Questions about Divorce

[Rev. Lowery]

Your right bmerr.

One question though repentance = forgiveness = forgotten by God.

Now a lost person would not per say no better but if your a christian you would..

Salvation cleans us spiritually.
So as long as the couple stays true to each other. The Husband is Good as long as no adultery happens on his part.

My opinion though

Think about this what man has not looked on a woman and lusted.
When Paul wrote 1 tim. 3 is it a commandment from God, or just how he feels things should be run. I mean 1 tim 3 is strict and no one fits the standards I have lusted. So that means I have commited adultery should I resign.

I know this is a tough question but its valid.
Alot of leaders if they held to 1 tim 3 solid would not be leaders infact we probably wouldnt have any.


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[steaver]

God has allowed for only two things to separate a man and woman after they have married: death and divorce for fornication. If one's spouse dies, they are no longer joined to them. They are free to remarry. If one's spouse commits fornication, the innocent party is permitted (not commanded) to put the guilty party away and remarry. the guily party may not Scripturally remarry.

It's not as complicated as many would make it, it just isn't taught much anymore. Hope this helps.

In Christ,

bmerr

Just want to understand perfectly clear what you are saying.

If I 1)abandon my wife and 2)I commit fornication (two things going on here), is she now considered unmarried from me by God's standards?

Or, If 1)I abandon my wife but don't commit fornication, is she considered unmarried from me by God's standards?

Just when are husband and wife declared no longer married by God outside of death?

God Bless!

 

[bmerr]

Steaver,

bmerr here. I'm not sure why you added abandonment to the equation. I can tell you for a fact that one can live in the same house with his wife, work 40+ hours a week to provide for her needs, even have children by her and take care of their needs, all the while being an adulterer. I've been that guy.

If a person commits fornication against their spouse, and repents, then the spouse has the option of forgiving the transgression of the marriage vows and the marriage goes on. This was my case. What a woman my wife is!

In the same scenario, the faithful spouse also has the option of divorcing the unfaithful party. Some people simply can't get over the betrayal, and refuse to continue living with the unfaithful party.

If, on the other hand, the fornicator is unrepentant, the innocent party again has the option of divorce. I can't see a reason why one in such a situation wouldn't choose divorce.

It's important to remember that divorce is never commanded, only permitted under the one circumstance of fornication.

The second scenario you mentioned, (abandonment but no fornication), would be a rare one, indeed.

But, 1 Cor 7:10-11 comes to mind, which reads,

"And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife."

Notice that even if the wife departs, the man is still her husband. I think it safe to conclude that this works both ways, since the rule concerning divorce does, as well (Mark 10:12).

I don't know if this is any clearer or not, but I tried.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:
Your right bmerr.

One question though repentance = forgiveness = forgotten by God.

Mr. Lowery,

bmerr here. Right. But repenting of the sin of adultery requires that one stop committing adultery, which is what one would be doing if they divorced and remarried unscripturally. The unscriptural marriage would have to be dissolved. Otherwise, the sin of adultery would be unforgiven, (being unrepented of), and the person would have no hope of eternal life.

Now a lost person would not per say no better but if your a christian you would..

I'm not sure what you mean here, but "whosoever" covers everybody, sinner and saint alike.

Salvation cleans us spiritually.

Right, and salvation requires repentance on the part of the believer (Acts 2:38).

So as long as the couple stays true to each other. The Husband is Good as long as no adultery happens on his part.

The rule concerning divorce works both ways (Mark 10:11-12). If the man were the innocent party in a divorce, and he remarried with someone who was ineligible to marry, then he too is in sin.

For example, Bob divorces his wife, who has run off with the UPS guy. Bob is Scripturally eligible to remarry.

Bob later meets Jane, who is also divorced, but in her case, it was just for "irreconcilable differences". Neither her, nor her former husband had been unfaithful, they "just didn't love each other anymore", so they divorced. Neither Jane, nor her former husband are Scripturally eligible to remarry. Their only option would be to reconcile with each other (1 Cor 7:11). They are, in fact, STILL HUSBAND AND WIFE.

For Jane, each time she has sex with someone other than her first husband, she commits adultery against him, and he against her each time he has sex with someone other than her.

If Bob marries Jane, then each time they consummate the marriage, Jane is committing adultery against her former husband, and Bob helps, thus being an adulterer.

Even if Bob and Jane live together for the rest of their lives, neither ever stepping out on the other, they will always be living in adultery, unless they repent, which means acknowledging their sin, and turning from it.

My opinion though

Think about this what man has not looked on a woman and lusted.

No normal, healthy, red-blooded man that I'm aware of can say that he's never looked at a woman to lust after her.

I can say that I do my best to resist the temptation to lust after women, though. I see where you're going with this.

When Paul wrote 1 tim. 3 is it a commandment from God, or just how he feels things should be run. I mean 1 tim 3 is strict and no one fits the standards I have lusted. So that means I have commited adultery should I resign. I know this is a tough question but its valid.
Alot of leaders if they held to 1 tim 3 solid would not be leaders infact we probably wouldnt have any.

1 Tim 3 is given by inspiration of God, as is all Scripture, and is binding upon all amenable to the NT.

I think what you're doing, though, is inserting a demand for perfection, where God has demanded faithfulness. There is a difference.

Jerry, we both know that no one is capable of sinless perfection. God knows it, too. Faithfulness, not perfection, is what God demands of Christians.

One might say, "How do we know if we're faithful enough?"

Fair question, and I'll ask a couple in return.

Is is possible to be a perfect husband or wife? NO! Is it possible to be a faithful husband or wife? ABSOLUTELY!

How do you know if you're a "faithful enough" husband? How about a "faithful enough" wife? Can we know these things? Surely we can.

That is the relationship to which Christ and the church is compared in the Bible (Eph 5:32).

It is certainly possible for men to meet the qualifications for elders and deacons in 1 Tim 3. I know several men who do.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[steaver]

Bmerr posted;

If a person commits fornication against their spouse, and repents, then the spouse has the option of forgiving the transgression of the marriage vows and the marriage goes on.

Another member here, BobRyan, believes that Matt 18:35 teaches us that a Christian who does not forgive trespasses will have their own forgiveness in Christ revoked (lose salvation). Do you agree with this, and if so, then isn't the spouse obligated to forgive the fornicating other else he/she have their salvation revoked?

I would say that a divorce would be a clear sign of unforgiveness, no? True forgiveness means not holding a transgression against a person. To say I can't live with the adultery is to say I cannot forgive it.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Bmerr posted;

If a person commits fornication against their spouse, and repents, then the spouse has the option of forgiving the transgression of the marriage vows and the marriage goes on.

Doesn't the innocent spouse have the option of forgiving even if the guilty spouse doesn't repent?

And as I said the post before, doesn't Matt 18:35 take that "option" away?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Even if Bob and Jane live together for the rest of their lives, neither ever stepping out on the other, they will always be living in adultery, unless they repent, which means acknowledging their sin, and turning from it.

Would you conclude that these two (whether born again believers in Christ or not) will not be saved because of this unrepented of sin?

Let me give you my example. I was already a born again believer when I slipped off into a world of drunkenness and fornication. I met a woman who was seperated (not divorced) from her Christian husband, she was not a Christian then. We committed adultery together for two years. She became divorced (according to man's law) and married me. Five years went by and she was called by God and recieved Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior (sadly, no help from my part). I then repented of my drinking and allowed Jesus to rule my life once again.

Now... are you preaching that my wife and I should have seperated and gotten a divorce?

Second, how do you think our two kids would take this? Do you think they would get over it? (Let me add that it was through our young son that his mother found her way to Christ. What a wonderful reward it would be for him to see that now his mother and father must seperate because of what he had done witnessing for Christ!)

Thirdly, we have not repented of this adultery, we are still living in adultery (according to your view), so are we condemned (have we lost our salvation) unless we repent of this marriage?

God Bless!

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Bmerr posted;

If a person commits fornication against their spouse, and repents, then the spouse has the option of forgiving the transgression of the marriage vows and the marriage goes on.

Doesn't the innocent spouse have the option of forgiving even if the guilty spouse doesn't repent?

And as I said the post before, doesn't Matt 18:35 take that "option" away?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]steaver,

bmerr here. I'd say that there are two sides to forgiveness. While a Christian who is offended can (and must) be willing to forgive, he can't force it on anyone. The offender would have to repent in order to receive the forgiveness offered by the offended, would he not?

For example, God has forgiveness available to every one who ever lived, but in order for one to avail himself of God's forgiveness, he must submit to the conditions God has set, one of which is repentance (Acts 2:38).

I've heard it said that to forgive is to give up one's right to hold an offense against someone. I think Elizabeth Elliot said that. Maybe that's a good definition, maybe not.

In the situation you describe above, the innocent spouse, if a Christian, must be willing to forgive, but if the guilty one doesn't ask for it or want it, they don't avail themselves of it. For the innocent party to continue living with a mate that refuses to be faithful would be unreasonable.

We need to remember that "whosoever" in matt 19:9 covers sinner and saint alike.

The innocent party has the option to put the guilty one away and marry another. If the guilty one later comes to their senses and repents, they can be forgiven, but they are not eligible to remarry. Their only hope would have been to reconcile with their former spouse. If that one has gone and remarried, then it's too late.

It seems pretty strict, but Jesus' disciples recognized it as such as well (Matt 19:10).

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by steaver:

Originally posted by bmerr:

Even if Bob and Jane live together for the rest of their lives, neither ever stepping out on the other, they will always be living in adultery, unless they repent, which means acknowledging their sin, and turning from it.

steaver said: Would you conclude that these two (whether born again believers in Christ or not) will not be saved because of this unrepented of sin?

steaver,

bmerr here. This is going to sound harsh, but please understand that my aim is to "speak the truth in love" (Eph 4:15). I would say, and I think I could show from Scripture, that unless these people had already repented, then they did not become Christians at all.

Let me give you my example. I was already a born again believer when I slipped off into a world of drunkenness and fornication. I met a woman who was seperated (not divorced) from her Christian husband, she was not a Christian then. We committed adultery together for two years. She became divorced (according to man's law) and married me. Five years went by and she was called by God and recieved Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior (sadly, no help from my part). I then repented of my drinking and allowed Jesus to rule my life once again.

Now... are you preaching that my wife and I should have seperated and gotten a divorce?

I can relate somewhat to your situation, especially the drunkeness and fornication part. I've been there, too.

Again, please know that it's hard for me to say the things I'm about to say, because I think highly of you, and I don't want to make you angry, but I, as a Christian, have the obligation to speak the whole council of God.

The woman you met, and later married, was not Scripturally eligible to marry you, having committed adultery against her husband. She was put away for fornication. The second half of Matt 19:9 says, "and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

From the facts you have given me, the marriage you are in is not Scriptural, and you and your wife are living in adultery. Unless and until you repent of this situation, you can have no hope of inheriting the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10).

I'm so sorry that I can't tell you differently, steaver.

Second, how do you think our two kids would take this? Do you think they would get over it? (Let me add that it was through our young son that his mother found her way to Christ. What a wonderful reward it would be for him to see that now his mother and father must seperate because of what he had done witnessing for Christ!)

Children in your case are like the innocent victims of a drive-by shooting. They didn't have anything to do with the situation they're in, but they're in it all the same.

In Ezra 10, there was a situation where many of the men of Israel had taken wives of the heathen nations around them. This was not lawful for them to do. (Nationality doesn't matter under the NT, but the scenario is similar.)

These men, in order to bring themselves back into line with God's word, said,

"Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law" (Ezra 10:3).

Then in 10:11, Ezra commands them to, "Make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives."

Finally in 10:44, we read, "All these had taken strange wives: and some of them had wives by whom they had children."

I'm not sure what to tell you about your children. (Man, I know this is hard.) Jesus said in Luke 14:26,

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Whatever can be said, Christ must come first.

Thirdly, we have not repented of this adultery, we are still living in adultery (according to your view), so are we condemned (have we lost our salvation) unless we repent of this marriage?

The sin of adultery, as well as all other sin, must be repented of in order to become a Christian in the first place. I cannot answer anything but, "Yes". I wish this was not the case.

I'm sorry for the situation you and your family are in. Any help I can offer is available. I'll be praying for you, my friend.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Rev. Lowery]

So bmerr are you saying they are not saved even though they have accepted Christ as there Lord and Savior because they remain married?

So in divorcing they would make right by God what was wrong and then they could gain salvation but only till they divorce?

So if they dont divorce they are bound for hell?

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I'll register strong disagreement with bmerr's response to Steaver's question.

 

[bmerr]

Mr. Lowery, Charles,

bmerr here. I didn't like giving the response I gave, either. But I can't find any way for adulterers to go to heaven in the Bible, unless they repent. I know it seems harsh.

What would you say if the couple was not married, but the man was living in sin with a woman who was married to another man? What council would you give to such a "couple" if they responded to the invitation and wanted to "accept Christ as their Saviour and Lord"? Would you not tell them they needed to repent?

If you would not, then you would not be telling them what an inspired apostle would tell them (Acts 2:38).

Please know that I did not enjoy responding to steaver's post. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear, and hard to say.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Rev. Lowery]

bmerr has a point the scripture leans toward his
post. It is compelling to say the lest. My main concern is this.

Steaver was saved before he married the woman that was put away for fornication?
If yes then bmerr is correct he shouldn't have married her and they shouldn't be together.

On the other hand one could argue that since both know Christ there sins are forgiven.
The scripture, Matthew 19:9, how ever doesnt seem to apply to men seeing as how a woman couldnt put away her husband. This is tricky.


If both where lost when they where married and came to know Christ later, there sin of adultery has been forgiven and imho they should remain married.

God demands alot from us if The scripture demands you forsake all others to follow then you should. You cant let anything stand in your way of serving, including your marriage.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery D.D.

 

[Charles Meadows]

If both where lost when they where married and came to know Christ later, there sin of adultery has been forgiven and imho they should remain married.

I agree with this.

 

[Claudia_T]

I dont know anything about the Baptist Denomination and it's beliefs but Im guessing that where the original question of this whole thread is concerned, that if you get a divorce and it is unscriptural, then the person is considered to be in a state of perpetual sin. But if someone was a drunk, a wife abuser, or whatever and stops doing that and repents then they are forgiven and the sin is done and overwith.

Also there is such a thing as open sin and private sin. A diviorce is publically done and everybody knows about it. To allow a man to become a Preacher when he has had a divorce is like condoning divorce. The Bible says 1Thes:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.

But on the other hand, the Freemasonry Organization is highly questionable and so if that were the case then they ought to ban men who participate in that... from becoming a minister, if the idea is to keep up appearances.

Its kind of like Abortion and Homosexuality though, in my opionion. So many Christians today condemn those two things like its going out of style (and well they should) but when it comes to their own sins its "I am under grace and the law is not applicable to us as Christians today".


Whatever the case though, Man judges by appearances but God judges the heart, and God might look down far more upon some of the secret sins of those men who are in high positions than He does upon someone else's divorce.


Claudia

 

[bmerr]

Mr. Lowery,

bmerr here. God's law concerning divorce and remarriage works both ways. Matt 19:9 speaks of a man putting away his wife, but the parallel passage in Mark 10:11-12 shows that this applies to the women, too.

11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Something I think is being overlooked is the fact that repentance from sin is a part of the gospel, and without repentance, there is no forgiveness, or remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 17:30).

In my own life, I have had to deal with this issue. My wife had been married once before I met her. Neither of us were Christians when we married. When I obeyed the gospel, the elders spoke to me about my marriage, asking if it was our first marriage, etc.

I told them that it was my first, but my wife's second. They directed me to Matt 19:9, and I had to investigate the circumstances surrounding my wife's divorce. As it turned out, she had been the innocent party, her first husband having been unfaithful to his vows. She had the scriptural right to remarry, and so our marriage is legitimate.

There's no doubt about it: this is hard stuff. This subject has been neglected by so many for so long, the result is that people are ignorant of God's law concerning it. My old Baptist "pastor" is on the wrong side of this thing, so it's a small wonder that he never preached on it, either.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Hope of Glory]

Two things as food for thought: Is polygyny prohibited Scripturally? I know polygamy is, but what about polygyny?

Also, Scripturally, an adulterer is someone who sleeps with another man's wife, and an adulteress is someone who sleeps with someone other than her husband. What's supposed to happen to them? Does this mean that we should consider the guilty party dead spiritually?

 

[Johnv]

Polygyny is having more than one wife at a time. Scripture does not permit more than one wife at a time. Hence, it can be implied that polygyny is scripturally forbidden.

I don't know why any many would engage in polygyny. Having one wife at a time is usually more than plenty

[ December 09, 2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[steaver]

Is David, the man after God's own heart, in hell? Or doesn't unrepented of adultery and multiple wives apply to the OT saints?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Is Moses in hell for telling the Iraelites they could divorce just because their hearts were hardened towards their wives? Are all of these in hell as well?

God Bless!