A few questions

[308 Haverhill]

"Let your speach always be seasoned with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how you are to answer everyman"

Brothers, I don't think sarcastic response reflect the spirit of this verse .
Why not lay aside the sarcasim and attempt to insturct me if you think I am off base. Your approach is not helpful, edifying or Christlike.

Ann- I do apprciate your responses. If you are reffering to the geographical location of the people Paul is writing to, I am not sure if that really matters. I believe he is laying down a princple which applies to all Christians, men and women include. Unneccessay adornments, expensive clothes, ect. are not God's will regardless of the cultural setting. What purpose do these things serve? They do not promote shamefacedness and humility, which is what God desires. I open to hearing your perspective on the verse. Thank you for the question. This approach is much more beneficial than the one taken by several of our dear brothers:

 

[308 Haverhill]

I have reread my questions, have not found the rediculous ones yet. Sorry. When some one from the world visits your church with "ridiculous" questions, do you treat them with sarcasim or do you try to provide biblical answers to their questions.

 

[annsni]

Ann- I do apprciate your responses. If you are reffering to the geographical location of the people Paul is writing to, I am not sure if that really matters. I believe he is laying down a princple which applies to all Christians, men and women include. Unneccessay adornments, expensive clothes, ect. are not God's will regardless of the cultural setting. What purpose do these things serve? They do not promote shamefacedness and humility, which is what God desires. I open to hearing your perspective on the verse. Thank you for the question. This approach is much more beneficial than the one taken by several of our dear brothers:

No - I was asking in what context was Paul speaking of when he was addressing Timothy. If we read verse 8, Paul says "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." Is this for all places and times? Or is it in a specific place he is directing them to pray and lift holy hands?

 

[saturneptune]

I have reread my questions, have not found the rediculous ones yet. Sorry. When some one from the world visits your church with "ridiculous" questions, do you treat them with sarcasim or do you try to provide biblical answers to their questions.

Someone already responded to you in a post that all Baptist churches are autonomous, and to get what is the norm in any particular church, you would have to learn what is acceptable at that church. There is no one blanket standard.

One thing that strikes me about your opening post, is why do you harp on a woman's dress at church, and ignore men. I could ask you the following questions.
1. Why do young men or teens wear caps into church?
2. Why do some wear their pants almost below their waist?
3. Why do some men come to church covered in tatooes?
4. Why are some allowed to wear ear rings and nose ornaments?

What is it you are trying to prove? Would you be happy with a woman who walked in with long hair, no jewelry, and a bikini?

Common sense goes a long way. By the way, you never did cite the verses from Paul.

 

[308 Haverhill]

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or perals, or costly array"
1 Timothy 2:9

I am not harping on women. I believe men should dress appropriately as well. This includes covering the body, both men and women. Don't understand about women wearing a bikini and no jewelry. I think it was understandable from my other posts that modesty would including covering the body,.


You are still not giving me any answers to my questions, just picking at the questions. Sorry this topic is such a touchy one. Why not just explain your positon and leave it at that. I understand there is more than one point of view on this topic.
Just trying to understand the other side of the arguement.

 

[saturneptune]

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or god, or perals, or costly array"
1 Timothy 2:9

I am not harping on women. I believe men should dress appropriately as well. This includes covering the body, both men and women. Don't understand about women wearing a bikini and no jewelry. I think it was understandable from my other posts that modesty would including covering the body,.


You are still not giving me any answers to my questions, just picking at the questions. Sorry this topic is such a touchy one. Why not just explain your positon and leave it at that. I understand there is more than one point of view on this topic.
Just trying to understand the other side of the arguement.

The reason you are getting a bunch of answers you do not like is from post one, you are attempting to be holier than thou. Because I do not give you the answers you want, you assume my position is contrary to yours. That is your first mistake.

The women in the church I attend, including my wife and daughter, dress very conservative, and probably exceed your standards. This is the difference. They are doing it out of a love for the Lord, and a witness, unlike you, who is memorizing verses and trying to live up to them. That is your second mistake.

 

[ccrobinson]

Just trying to understand the other side of the arguement.

Perhaps a good place to start would have been a search? It's not like this topic has never come up before. An even better place to start when you joined this board would have been to go to the "Welcome to the Baptistboard" forum and introduce yourself. When your first post is to start a debate over an issue that's been debated endlessly, then there's suspicion of what your real motives are. There's been all manner of people who come here with the stated intent of "trying to understand the other side" when all they're really here to do is stir up trouble. They typically last a thread or 2 and then they're never heard from again.

I think it would be great if you stuck around and became a regular contributor to the board, but with the way you've started your time here, I have my doubts.

 

[308 Haverhill]

CC, thanks for the response. As i said, i attend a Baptist church and would like to understand the practices form their perspective.

Saturn-
I don't have any problem with people who do not agree with me in all points. i go to a church full of people who have different opinions that I have.
What I don't appreicate is sarcasim and people giving responses which do not address the questions.

Without every meeting me you have labeled me "holier than thou" That is another good technique to rebut someone you don't agree with without address the issue.

I will state it one more time, I understand there is more than one way to look at this issue. The tone of several of the responses to me is offensive and not helping. Fine to disagree, just teach me with the bible, not jokes .

 

[annsni]

308 Haverhill, a parallel passage to the 1 Timothy 2:9-10 is 1 Peter 3:1-6:

1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

5For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

6Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.


Do you see that it's not a prohibition against jewelry but that our adornment should be from the inside? I can see a woman with some pretty jewelry on who is a hag no matter how much she wears on the outside but I've also seen women who were absolutely beautiful because of what was inside. They might still wear jewelry but that doesn't do anything other than make them "pretty" - but their actual beauty is on the inside.

If jewelry was prohibited, then God would be doing something wrong in speaking positively of jewelry all throughout the Old Testament. He even speaks of "jewelry" with regards to Israel.

 

[308 Haverhill]

Ann- you have a good point about God's view of jewelry in the old testament.

I guess I feel, if the inner beauty is what counts, why spend so much effort, time and money to inhance the outside. Be happy with the way God made you and accept the aging process and changes it brings to the outer man., both men and woman.

 

[Jerome]

I was asking in what context was Paul speaking of when he was addressing Timothy. If we read verse 8, Paul says "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." Is this for all places and times? Or is it in a specific place he is directing them to pray and lift holy hands?

So which is it?

 

[308 Haverhill]

Paul was probably reffering to the worship service. However, the principles of modesty apply in and out of worship.

 

[donnA]

Thanks for the input. Here are a few of my thoughts in regards to your responses

1-I am honestly not here to start trouble, just wanting some answers. I thoght it would be better to ask these questions on line than to ask them in a bible class and offend those in the class

2- Lets not confuse obedience with legalism. Using that term is an easy way to brush aside an issue we dont' want to deal with or justify our position.

3- 1 Tim 2:9 seems to prohibit wearing gold, peals and costly attire. At the very least, there is a principle which should be taken seriously.

4- The inward condition of the heart is often expressed on the outside. We easily itentify rebillion in the appearance of a teenager, the same is true of pride or a worldly heart in appearance of a Christian.

5- Is immodesty and worldliness a peripherial issue? That is a matter of opinon.

6- Just because we are saved by grace does not mean we do not try to please God with our lives. Just because we are saved by grace does not mean we violate biblical mandates or principles

7- Comparing wordly fashions, jewelry and worldy hair styles with the use of modern technology is not a valid comarison. We can use technology; computers, refrigerators, ect. as tools. Jewelry, immodest clothing, ect. has no practical application. Worldliness has nothing to do with using modern advancements.

8- Roamans 12:2 tells us to not be conformed to the world. Does that not apply to outward appearance?

9- "Avoid the very appearance of evil". If a woman has the hair style, makeup, jewelary, clothes and hair style of a 1920s flapper, is she not sending a confusing messgage?

10- Who gets the glory from fashionable clothes and jewelry? Have you ever said "Praise the Lord, look at that necklace".

Just my opinons.

if bad evil people use the internet for their evil, like porn, are you avoiding the appearenc eof evil if you still use a computer? this is the comparision you are making of women. if someone uses it for evil, then you appeare evil by using it too, same for you suing a computer. seems you desire for godliness reaches others around you, but not yourself. you argument would hold more weight if you got rid of the internet.
you didn't want to offend people in a class, but don't mind coming here and doing it, seems strange.

 

[saturneptune]

CC, thanks for the response. As i said, i attend a Baptist church and would like to understand the practices form their perspective.

Saturn-
I don't have any problem with people who do not agree with me in all points. i go to a church full of people who have different opinions that I have.
What I don't appreicate is sarcasim and people giving responses which do not address the questions.

Without every meeting me you have labeled me "holier than thou" That is another good technique to rebut someone you don't agree with without address the issue.

I will state it one more time, I understand there is more than one way to look at this issue. The tone of several of the responses to me is offensive and not helping. Fine to disagree, just teach me with the bible, not jokes .

No, I do not know you. All I can do is go by the content of your posts, and they appear very confrontational from post one.(third or fourth time someone has told you that) They also appear very legalisitic, which I tried to explain the difference in my last post, and you chose to ignore.

I believe that Ann explained the context of the verse you cited from Paul very well. That is the danger of isolating one verse out of context, especially in a legalistic mindset.

 

[donnA]

and would like to understand the practices form their perspective.

then ask them, not us.

all scripture harmonizes when you read all related scripture. as ann posted there are related scriptures you are not taking into consideration when attempting to interpet. only when taking all thes einto considderation, plus context, then you will get a more correct interpetation, without it, you holier then thou attitude like now, thinking we all need to please you.

 

[308 Haverhill]

people use guns to kill people
computers for porn
drive drunk in cars
ect

Dressing in an immodest, provative fashion is not comparable to using inanimate objects as tools. It is a big leap to assume I use my computer for porn simply because I have the internet. When a woman or man dresses in a revealing manner, it may be innocent, although it serves no practical beneficial purpose. You are comaring apples to oranges here.

One side note; our foyer at church has tracts condemning the type of clothing and styles our own church women wear. Maybe I will go there Weds and clean them out. It will help avoid confusion if a visitor sould pick up one of these tracks.

 

[308 Haverhill]

Donna, your response is an example of why I dont' ask the. It is not enjoyable to be called "holier than thou".

 

[annsni]

Ann- you have a good point about God's view of jewelry in the old testament.

I guess I feel, if the inner beauty is what counts, why spend so much effort, time and money to inhance the outside. Be happy with the way God made you and accept the aging process and changes it brings to the outer man., both men and woman.

Yep - I agree but sometimes the barn needs a-painting. LOL

For me personally, I'm a low maintenance gal. I hate having to over-do anything and am happiest in sweats, a turtleneck and sweater and warm fluffy socks with my hair in a pony tail (during the winter). I wear earrings to keep my holes open so I can wear prettier earrings if we do something "fancy". I don't do a lot of jewelry, as I said. I will wear a necklace if it looks pretty with what I wear but they're usually pretty understated. I wear make-up but I'm in my 40s and with rosacea, my skin is SOOO red and I'd rather that my adorning not be my redness but what's inside so I cover the redness.

But I don't ever want anyone to come to my funeral and say to my husband "She was so pretty - always made up, always wearing such gorgeous jewelry." Instead I want him to hear "Your wife was such a wonderful testimony to the joy of the Lord. She showed me how to be a wife/mother/woman of God and I'll never forget her for that." So I dress up the outside enough to not scare people and then try to work on the inside a lot more. LOL

 

[annsni]

people use guns to kill people
computers for porn
drive drunk in cars
ect

Dressing in an immodest, provative fashion is not comparable to using inanimate objects as tools. It is a big leap to assume I use my computer for porn simply because I have the internet. When a woman or man dresses in a revealing manner, it may be innocent, although it serves no practical beneficial purpose. You are comaring apples to oranges here.

One side note; our foyer at church has tracts condemning the type of clothing and styles our own church women wear. Maybe I will go there Weds and clean them out. It will help avoid confusion if a visitor sould pick up one of these tracks.

You see, you have to think about what is truly "immodest" and what is "old culturally Christian immodest". I'm wearing sweatpants. Pants would be considered "immodest" to some but to me, not so much unless they're the painted on kind that I never wear. Painted on pants on a chubby 40 something woman is really beyond immodest and bordering on worthy of prison. LOL *I* don't want to see it - why would anyone else??

But seriously, 150 years ago, immodest would have been showing elbows or ankles. Today, not so much. But I do think there is definitely immodest out there and we do need to be careful to keep modesty in mind without becoming so legalistic that we come up with "rules" as to what one should wear and what one should not wear. Again, I'll go to my own standards - things need to be covered that I am uncomfortable showing. I'm active and work around horses. I need to bend over, run, haul, carry and lead stuff - I need to make sure things are tucked in that should be tucked in and not sneaking out in any way. But I will wear shorts, tank tops, skirts just above the knee and still feel well covered while others find each of these to be immodest. That is fine - and I make sure I wear the above in the appropriate settings (beach, barn, boat, etc.) whereas other times I'll wear something a bit more covering.

But since there are no hard and fast rules in the Bible (such as skirts must fall to 3" below the bottom of the knee, collar bone covered, upper arm covered), I need to use the discernment of the Spirit to decide what to wear. He's usually done pretty well by me thus far.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Welcome to the board 308, hang in there. You say you are new to baptists, but you need to realize that there are many different brands of bastist. Any position you want to take you will find some baptists that agree with you and others who will not. You may have just taken on to big a subject early, you may want to spend some time reading older posts.

You need to realize that often non belivers come on this board simply to stir up discord and argue and having seen that so many times many of us are suspicious of new members who may in fact be older banned members coming back for more.

If you are interested in serious scholarly discussion of God's word you can find that here, but you might want to start with one subject at a time, hair or dress or jewlry.