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A 'Former Calvinist' Admits "Arminianism is so much more appealing to worldly people.
- Thread starter Monergist
- Start date
</font>[/QUOTE]Worldly, worldly is where the world is, right? But not true believers! They do not seek the entertainment of todays gospel!
Spurgeon said we are all born Armenians but God calls His own to Himself and we are then Calvinist! Blessings! "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing fo your mind"!Rom12:2 You cannot be both worldly and a true believer, just wont work, even in the church! Read Walter Chantrys Todays Gosper, Authentic or Synthetic.
I've read it. I'll give it 2
H
HanSola2000
Guest
What jibberish. Calvinists have a great history don't they??? Forcing their religion on others, burning people at the stake, executions, jail, exiles, etc. Yeah, the doctrine really kept your mentors "humble"---humble enough to persecute and kill those who didn't agree with them. It is the doctrine of death and blasphemy.
Well we can start with Michael Servetus - even documents that support Calvin - go out of their way to exonerate him. Methinks they doth protest too much.
a little biased perhaps - but surprisingly only one side mentions this.
Then we can look at hs record I'm cutting and pasting from http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ247.HTM with a focus on section 7.
7. Calvin
A. General
In the preface to the Institutes he admitted the right of the government to put heretics to death . . . He thought that Christians should hate the enemies of God . . . Those who defended heretics . . . should be equally punished.
(Smith, 178)
During Calvin's reign in Geneva, between 1542 and 1546, "58 persons were put to death for heresy." (Durant, 473)
While he did not directly recommend the use of the death penalty for blasphemy, he defended its use among the Jews.
(Harkness, 102)
In defense of stoning false prophets, Calvin observes:
The father should not spare his son . . . nor the husband his own wife. If he has some friend who is as dear to him as his own life, let him put him to death.
(Harknesss, 107; Calvin, Opera [Works], vol. 27, 251; Sermon on Deuteronomy 13:6-11)
He talks of the execution of Catholics, but, like Luther, did not readily attempt to act on his rhetoric:
Persons who persist in the superstitions of the Roman Antichrist . . . deserve to be repressed by the sword.
(Harkness, 96; letter to Duke of Somerset, October 22, 1548)
It goes on listing more
a little biased perhaps - but surprisingly only one side mentions this.
Then we can look at hs record I'm cutting and pasting from http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ247.HTM with a focus on section 7.
7. Calvin
A. General
In the preface to the Institutes he admitted the right of the government to put heretics to death . . . He thought that Christians should hate the enemies of God . . . Those who defended heretics . . . should be equally punished.
(Smith, 178)
During Calvin's reign in Geneva, between 1542 and 1546, "58 persons were put to death for heresy." (Durant, 473)
While he did not directly recommend the use of the death penalty for blasphemy, he defended its use among the Jews.
(Harkness, 102)
In defense of stoning false prophets, Calvin observes:
The father should not spare his son . . . nor the husband his own wife. If he has some friend who is as dear to him as his own life, let him put him to death.
(Harknesss, 107; Calvin, Opera [Works], vol. 27, 251; Sermon on Deuteronomy 13:6-11)
He talks of the execution of Catholics, but, like Luther, did not readily attempt to act on his rhetoric:
Persons who persist in the superstitions of the Roman Antichrist . . . deserve to be repressed by the sword.
(Harkness, 96; letter to Duke of Somerset, October 22, 1548)
It goes on listing more
Ray Berrian
New Member
Monergist and others,
You Calvinists talk out of both sides of your mouth. A few months ago you said the unsaved 'are dead souls' and cannot understand the Gospel until the Spirit convinces them of their sins. No you push the theory that it appeals to 'the natural man.' Which is it for you floundering thinkers? Now you are saying that it appeals to the 'worldly.' You are portraying to all on the board even Pastor Larry that you are 'plugging the holes in your sinking theological boat.' You even use the 'pitch' of the worldly secular mind. You moved from a 'dead corpse' theory about sinners to your new and improved concept of 'it appeal to the worldly mind.'
I agree with the last view. Yes, the sinner understands right and wrong doctrine because all sinners are created in the 'image of God' and our Adamic nature only has tainted our souls; it has not destroyed our mind and volitional skills. That is why God calls sinners to believe [Acts 2:21 & Acts 16:31].
The servant of God, James, the half-brother of the Lord after the resurrection of Christ was converted and he tell us that all sinners are created after the likeness of God [James 2:9]. Of course, God is appealing to the worldly people. The Baptist came to bear witness to the Light/Jesus, '. . . that all men through Jesus might believe.' Notice God did not say all will believe in Christ but rather the possibility of the salvation of sinners was provided for in His precious atonement. After the Word is heard, man of his own volition must decide to own Jesus or be lost and separated forever from the living God.
Calvinism is so unScriptural that this 'ism' makes Jehovah's Witness not look too bad. At least they believe in the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.
Your thinkers cut the'heart and soul' out of the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ Who 'wishes'all sinners to be saved [I Timothy 2:4] and is not willing that any should perish [II Peter 3:9].
Understand that our view is theology (notice my Scripture) while yours is a diluted philosophy [Colossians 2:8]chiselled out of ancient Roman Catholicism from Augustine and later his student the unordained John Calvin.
As God speaking through Paul in Colossians says, (Calvinism) is a '. . . philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and NOT after Christ.'
Tipping your hat to Catholism will not save your soul any more that partaking of their alleged, 'real Presence of Christ in their Eucharist.' Enjoy your philosophy here; I hope it gets you off the ground and toward the future life.
You Calvinists talk out of both sides of your mouth. A few months ago you said the unsaved 'are dead souls' and cannot understand the Gospel until the Spirit convinces them of their sins. No you push the theory that it appeals to 'the natural man.' Which is it for you floundering thinkers? Now you are saying that it appeals to the 'worldly.' You are portraying to all on the board even Pastor Larry that you are 'plugging the holes in your sinking theological boat.' You even use the 'pitch' of the worldly secular mind. You moved from a 'dead corpse' theory about sinners to your new and improved concept of 'it appeal to the worldly mind.'
I agree with the last view. Yes, the sinner understands right and wrong doctrine because all sinners are created in the 'image of God' and our Adamic nature only has tainted our souls; it has not destroyed our mind and volitional skills. That is why God calls sinners to believe [Acts 2:21 & Acts 16:31].
The servant of God, James, the half-brother of the Lord after the resurrection of Christ was converted and he tell us that all sinners are created after the likeness of God [James 2:9]. Of course, God is appealing to the worldly people. The Baptist came to bear witness to the Light/Jesus, '. . . that all men through Jesus might believe.' Notice God did not say all will believe in Christ but rather the possibility of the salvation of sinners was provided for in His precious atonement. After the Word is heard, man of his own volition must decide to own Jesus or be lost and separated forever from the living God.
Calvinism is so unScriptural that this 'ism' makes Jehovah's Witness not look too bad. At least they believe in the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth.
Your thinkers cut the'heart and soul' out of the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ Who 'wishes'all sinners to be saved [I Timothy 2:4] and is not willing that any should perish [II Peter 3:9].
Understand that our view is theology (notice my Scripture) while yours is a diluted philosophy [Colossians 2:8]chiselled out of ancient Roman Catholicism from Augustine and later his student the unordained John Calvin.
As God speaking through Paul in Colossians says, (Calvinism) is a '. . . philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and NOT after Christ.'
Tipping your hat to Catholism will not save your soul any more that partaking of their alleged, 'real Presence of Christ in their Eucharist.' Enjoy your philosophy here; I hope it gets you off the ground and toward the future life.
After reading some of these responses, I can't help but wonder if there's some kind of secret training manual for debating Calvinism out there that states something like-
"Always feel free to interject distorted "facts," malicious quotes, misrepresentations of doctrinal stance, historical inaccuracies, and, especially, slanderous accusations against Calvinism and John Calvin himself whenever your opponent raises a valid point against your position or when you sense that the argument is going against you. You will find attacks on Mr. Calvin to be especially effective in derailing the discussion, as there are a sufficient number of sources availible for any creative person who is willing to stretch and distort the truth just a bit. In order to effectively confuse your Calvinistic friends, we suggest that you study and commit to memory as many of these false allegations as you can; and remember-- Always keep a pocket-full of 'red-herrings' availible, for they are the most useful tool that an Arminian has."
The point to my post was a statement made by a professing opponent to Calvinism that "Arminianism is so much more appealing to worldly people." I agree that his assessment is accurate. If you happen to disagree, please feel free to state so and explain why.
Rather than taking the thread off topic- which took all of about 5 posts, it would be helpful for someone to demonstrate how the point of the topic is wrong.
For example:
One could argue and demonstrate how Arminianism is NOT attractive to wordly people,
OR,
one could argue and demonstrate how it is not Arminianism but CALVINISM that is attractive to worldly people.
...And if you just have to bash Calvin please feel free to start another thread.
"Always feel free to interject distorted "facts," malicious quotes, misrepresentations of doctrinal stance, historical inaccuracies, and, especially, slanderous accusations against Calvinism and John Calvin himself whenever your opponent raises a valid point against your position or when you sense that the argument is going against you. You will find attacks on Mr. Calvin to be especially effective in derailing the discussion, as there are a sufficient number of sources availible for any creative person who is willing to stretch and distort the truth just a bit. In order to effectively confuse your Calvinistic friends, we suggest that you study and commit to memory as many of these false allegations as you can; and remember-- Always keep a pocket-full of 'red-herrings' availible, for they are the most useful tool that an Arminian has."
The point to my post was a statement made by a professing opponent to Calvinism that "Arminianism is so much more appealing to worldly people." I agree that his assessment is accurate. If you happen to disagree, please feel free to state so and explain why.
Rather than taking the thread off topic- which took all of about 5 posts, it would be helpful for someone to demonstrate how the point of the topic is wrong.
For example:
One could argue and demonstrate how Arminianism is NOT attractive to wordly people,
OR,
one could argue and demonstrate how it is not Arminianism but CALVINISM that is attractive to worldly people.
...And if you just have to bash Calvin please feel free to start another thread.
It is funny how Calvin gets blamed for burning a man at the stake yet they do not say anything about all the other stake burnings that were going on in abundance around Europe. This was a practice that was accepted as common practice at the time. Yet they all want to say Calvin was a renegade by doing his own thing. They fail to recognize that Geneva was a sinful place that did not want to be cleaned up.
Burning Servetus for heresy was what happened to people of the time. Not that it was right, but it was the practice. Practiced more by non-calvinists than Calvinists.
Great post Monergist, Arminians always want to make Calvin look bad, but when you look at the facts he was no worse than anyone else. Even the nineteenth century historian Joseph Renan (who was no reformed enthusiast himself) said Calvin was "the most christian man of his time."
Burning Servetus for heresy was what happened to people of the time. Not that it was right, but it was the practice. Practiced more by non-calvinists than Calvinists.
Great post Monergist, Arminians always want to make Calvin look bad, but when you look at the facts he was no worse than anyone else. Even the nineteenth century historian Joseph Renan (who was no reformed enthusiast himself) said Calvin was "the most christian man of his time."
Ray your words make me want to cry, it is a sad day when an Arminian reduces Christs atonement to a possibilty.(See quote below)
Notice God did not say all will believe in Christ but rather the possibility of the salvation of sinners was provided for in His precious atonement.
That means you have to allow for the fact that Christ died for nothing. That his atonement provided the possibilty not the securement of salvation. That it is possible that no one will be saved because the choice is theirs. It makes me sick that this belief belittles the death of Christ and reduces the shedding of his blood to a "possiblity."
Notice God did not say all will believe in Christ but rather the possibility of the salvation of sinners was provided for in His precious atonement.
That means you have to allow for the fact that Christ died for nothing. That his atonement provided the possibilty not the securement of salvation. That it is possible that no one will be saved because the choice is theirs. It makes me sick that this belief belittles the death of Christ and reduces the shedding of his blood to a "possiblity."
As regarding the original post I actually spent the first 65 yrs of my life as an Armenian, a member of baptist, Lutheran, Assembly of God and again a baptist. Then I read The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink and was totally awestruck by its validation by scripture! I saw the great truth that was so visible in Acts 13:48 and asked the Lord to show me the truth of His doctrines in His Word! Thankfully I then visited a reformed baptist church and since then have been taught the deep truths of God's wondrous grace! I am so thankful that our God reigns in the affairs of men and that He continues to draw His own to Himself! I dont have to worry about tomorrow or forever as He holds all things in HIs Hands and does all things well! My life aim is 2BHizown and to bring all glory to Him! Its not about me, its all about Him! Its the 'focus' that is so wrong in todays thinking and it must be placed on what pleases Him, not us! I am His and He is mine!! To me, finding the doctrines of grace, ie, calvinism was the great highpoint of my life and I can never thank Him enough! I cannot fathom a true calvinist changing to armeniamism as I see that as rejecting God's grace and truth!
As always, this thread is about theology, not about history. Historical discussions about Calvin should be held in the history forum. Confine your thoughts here to theology about salvation.
The appeal to history is totally irrelevant. This discussion is about what God says, not about what Calvin did or may have done.
The appeal to history is totally irrelevant. This discussion is about what God says, not about what Calvin did or may have done.
I would agree with this post that Arminism is more appealing to the world, it allows people to have their cake and eat it too. "All I have to do is believe in Christ, and I can be saved." They do not want to accept the fact that they do not have a say in their salvation, or lives. They want a Burger King belief of Christ and God... Have it your way. Better yet how about a Mr. Potato Head view, I like this nose, and these eyes, but I do not like these shoes, and these hands. They want all the good(easy) aspects, and noe of the difficult.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Timothy27,
We understand. Wash the pig clean and put a ribbon around Calvin's neck and people might think he had a pure soul and for sure a purity of Christian doctrine.
One point for the Calvinists.
We understand. Wash the pig clean and put a ribbon around Calvin's neck and people might think he had a pure soul and for sure a purity of Christian doctrine.
One point for the Calvinists.
Ray Berrian
New Member
2BHizown,
I'm sure glad you got on the 'strait and narrow.' At your age and mine it is about time to get it right!
I am crying at my computer over all those years you were walking in darkness.
You saw the light!!!
I'm sure glad you got on the 'strait and narrow.' At your age and mine it is about time to get it right!
I am crying at my computer over all those years you were walking in darkness.
You saw the light!!!
T
TexasSky
Guest
Timothy,
I don't really know about Armininians as I'm not one, but I will tell you that your statement is very flawed.
According to Calvinists, it doesn't matter what you do. You're either going to heaven or hell, it was decided years ago. If you're Charles Manson you might end up in heaven simply because you were chosen to.
According to non-Calvinists - you MUST surrender your life to Christ to be saved. Pure and simple.
So it is more the Calvinist than others who teach, "It doesn't matter what you do or say, you're saved."
I don't really know about Armininians as I'm not one, but I will tell you that your statement is very flawed.
According to Calvinists, it doesn't matter what you do. You're either going to heaven or hell, it was decided years ago. If you're Charles Manson you might end up in heaven simply because you were chosen to.
According to non-Calvinists - you MUST surrender your life to Christ to be saved. Pure and simple.
So it is more the Calvinist than others who teach, "It doesn't matter what you do or say, you're saved."
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi 2BeHizown;
It's really funny how Calvinist can get so many meanings out of one word that was originally writen in Greek. You don't suppose any of them were ordained that didn't believe do you?
In the light of Christ;
Mike
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
It's really funny how Calvinist can get so many meanings out of one word that was originally writen in Greek. You don't suppose any of them were ordained that didn't believe do you?
In the light of Christ;
Mike
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
It's really funny how Calvinist can get so many meanings out of one word that was originally writen in Greek. You don't suppose any of them were ordained that didn't believe do you?
In the light of Christ;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost expept the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12.
Christ loves and protects forever all that come to HIm and believe in Him, live for HIm. Those that refuse His gracious offer of life eternal will surely perish. This is their own choice as they heard the same gospel I did, had the same opportunities I had but while I was so thrilled to learn of the doctrines of grace there are many who choose to reject them! How can you figure their forfeiting eternal life with Christ is not fair when it was their own choice!! When Christ chose me I was quick to say 'yes' and have never regretted being able to glorify Him in any way possible, even in all manner of conversation! Take the test in 1 John and see if you are for real! Examine yourself whether you be in the faith. Dont you know Jesus Christ lives in you? Unless of course, you fail the test!!2Cor 13:5
Blessings and prayers for understanding!