A Great Study...

[Yeshua1]

So these Jews will be saved simply by virtue of being Jews and the will not have the Spirit?

144,000 shall be sealed and marked out by God as his own during end times, and all the jews still alive will receive yeshua at His second coming, as they will enter into His kingdom reign!
ANY Jew still needs to get saved by yeshua and be indwelt by the Holy spirit!

 

[Yeshua1]

I was quoting someone who specifically said the Holy Spirit is "gone" from the earth after the rapture. Pay attention.

I know not all pre-tribbers believe that, but you are badly mistaken to say that none do.

true, but just shows that you cannot place all of us under same end times scenerios!

Just as while most reformed are A mil, some are post Mil, even Historical pre mil!

 

[preacher4truth]

Folks, it's kind of sad but it does seem to me that some of you are so in need of showing others their error(s). "How intelligement you is and how dumbs some of the rest of us is." Really, that is how it appears to me.

It all sounds good friend, that is, unless a person shows another their error with Scripture, which has happened many times here, and there have been as many times that those who are shown error reject the truth presented them.

Consider Apollos in Acts 18 as the perfect opposite example of this. The fact is that many will in pride reject correction and biblical rebuke, even after proven in fault via sound exegeses. Even mods here fall into said category. It's more important to some to be 'right' than to be right before God and be corrected via Scripture.

So, for your consideration, please be advised that I'm still "entitled" to my opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent..., I am still entitled to my "opinion" and just because YOU say so doesn't make it a fact.

Our opinions will mean nothing in this world nor in eternity unless they reflect God and His revealed truth. None of us matter unless we do His will regarding this, otherwise whatever else we produce is hay and stubble, note 2 Cor. 5.

Truth always wins the day, and that should be our pursuit, not our 'opinions'. To jockey our opinions is nothing less than to flaunt our own fleshly pride and nothing more.

No, i ain't never gaduated from the Yale School of Theology nor did i never attend the Jethro Bodine School of Advanced Mathetics and 'cernment.

Your postulation towards never graduating would not need a mention given your above response! :laugh:

On the contrary, I received my best education after I got out of school.

And your best education then should be always based upon God's Word and NEVER your opinion. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[RLBosley]

Where did I say that, or where do you get that idea from?

I'm trying to make sense of what you said. You said that only Jews will be saved and that the Spirit will be gone in at least some sense.

I don't know about that bro and I'm not suggesting support of any 'theology' in saying this. God can remove Himself from whatsoever He wills and in so doing 'He does not cease from being God' which is an impossiblity. I will not limit Him with human logic or reason...Isaiah 55:9.

What do you mean by "remove himself"? If you mean that he removes his approval or his blessing, and in that sense withdraws from something or someplace, I can agree with that. But if you mean he can literally leave a place so that it is no longer before him or it is hidden from his sight then I must completely disagree. There is no place that is not always before our God. Omnipresence is one of God's core attributes.

Folks, it's kind of sad but it does seem to me that some of you are so in need of showing others their error(s). "How intelligement you is and how dumbs some of the rest of us is." Really, that is how it appears to me.

So, for your consideration, please be advised that I'm still "entitled" to my opinion. Right, wrong or indifferent..., I am still entitled to my "opinion" and just because YOU say so doesn't make it a fact.

No, i ain't never gaduated from the Yale School of Theology nor did i never attend the Jethro Bodine School of Advanced Mathetics and 'cernment.

On the contrary, I received my best education after I got out of school.

Well you know you posted this topic in the debate forum right? No one ever said that you are not entitled to your opinion. Individual soul liberty and all that.

Nor am I out to prove how smart I am or dumb you are or vice verse. Your accusation is offensive and dishonest. I'm sorry that you are so bothered by a little push back against your view. Maybe next time if you want no dissenting voices in your threads you should say so in the OP and not post in the debate section.

 

[RLBosley]

144,000 shall be sealed and marked out by God as his own during end times, and all the jews still alive will receive yeshua at His second coming, as they will enter into His kingdom reign!
ANY Jew still needs to get saved by yeshua and be indwelt by the Holy spirit!

So only Jews and ALL Jews will be saved? Also, if a Jew is saved by Jesus, and indwelt by the Spirit, doesn't that mean they are then Christians??? Wouldn't a group of them, 144,000 if you wish, be a church???

true, but just shows that you cannot place all of us under same end times scenerios!

Just as while most reformed are A mil, some are post Mil, even Historical pre mil!

And I did not do that. I was responding to a specific statement that said the Holy Spirit is removed.

 

[HAMel]

Thanks you folks..., you validated my point.

 

[preacher4truth]

What do you mean by "remove himself"? If you mean that he removes his approval or his blessing, and in that sense withdraws from something or someplace, I can agree with that. But if you mean he can literally leave a place so that it is no longer before him or it is hidden from his sight then I must completely disagree. There is no place that is not always before our God. Omnipresence is one of God's core attributes.

I've said nothing of the sort bro (no longer before him or hidden from His sight) so remember what you are disagreeing with was not once mentioned by me. Consider Romans 1 perhaps?

 

[RLBosley]

I've said nothing of the sort bro (no longer before him or hidden from His sight) so remember what you are disagreeing with was not once mentioned by me. Consider Romans 1 perhaps?

I was just trying understand what you meant. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth at all, I apologize if that's what it seemed like. What specifically in Rom 1?

 

[preacher4truth]

I was just trying understand what you meant. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth at all, I apologize if that's what it seemed like. What specifically in Rom 1?

No prob bro, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective. Definitions of terms is in order and know that I am not attempting to be right, I'm only trying to keep up dialogue as this subject is of great importance. :thumbs:

My mention is how God has given up some to their own lusts &c -- Romans 1:24ff. It seems, as always, God reserves the right to show mercy to whom He wills, and to others, He can harden, and yet He cannot practice injustice.

 

[RLBosley]

No prob bro, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective. Definitions of terms is in order and know that I am not attempting to be right, I'm only trying to keep up dialogue as this subject is of great importance. :thumbs:

My mention is how God has given up some to their own lusts &c -- Romans 1:24ff. It seems, as always, God reserves the right to show mercy to whom He wills, and to others, He can harden, and yet He cannot practice injustice.

Oh yes I agree with that. But I'm missing the connection to the removal of the Spirit that some claim will happen.

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh yes I agree with that. But I'm missing the connection to the removal of the Spirit that some claim will happen.

Agreed! We will have to define terms as to what 'removal of the Spirit' means in the mind of God. I think of His Sovereignty, Glory (Exodus 33) and of Genesis 6:3 at this point.

 

[HAMel]

No need for anyone to apologize. No need what-so-ever. Besides, I'm a big guy rapidly approaching 70 so my skin is a bit tough.

I just don't see the need to come down on folks like so many of you do. I mean..., BANG!!! BIG EXPLOSION!!! GOTTA PUT THIS DUDE IN HIS PLACE!!! ME EDUCATED HIM NOT SO MUCH EDUCATED!!!

The way some of you come down on others on this DEBATE FORUM makes one glad they aren't your kids.

And, considering this is "A DEBATE FORUM" then all the stops are pulled out? Why don't you go DEBATE that for a bit.

Also, considering that I'm not a Yale Graduate..., no, I don't have a clue of anywhere in the Bible that indicates the Holy Spirit would be removed at the time of rapture (for those of you who believe in a "snatching away - in the twinkling of an eye")

I probably came to that conclusion many years ago while listening to another preacher. Well, I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

So you all carry on. Glad I've been able to provide you with some good entertainment. :sleeping_2:

 

[preacher4truth]

No need for anyone to apologize. No need what-so-ever. Besides, I'm a big guy rapidly approaching 70 so my skin is a bit tough.

I just don't see the need to come down on folks like so many of you do. I mean..., BANG!!! BIG EXPLOSION!!! GOTTA PUT THIS DUDE IN HIS PLACE!!! ME EDUCATED HIM NOT SO MUCH EDUCATED!!!

The way some of you come down on others on this DEBATE FORUM makes one glad they aren't your kids.

And, considering this is "A DEBATE FORUM" then all the stops are pulled out? Why don't you go DEBATE that for a bit.

lol...awww my friend don't be so uptight as to think others have come down so hard upon others. That is not the case. And besides, we all know that when we age our actual skin becomes thinner, not thicker!!!!!!!!!! :laugh: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[RLBosley]

Agreed! We will have to define terms as to what 'removal of the Spirit' means in the mind of God. I think of His Sovereignty, Glory (Exodus 33) and of Genesis 6:3 at this point.

Understood. So it seems to me that the removing of God's presence or his Spirit in this sense is best understood as the removal of his approval, his patience (mercy) or immediate reign. Naturally God does not ever give up or lose his providential sovereignty. If that is how we understand God removing His Spirit then I am on board with that understanding.

Of course what I reject is the whole pre-trib scheme including the supposed removal of the Spirit however the pre-trib folks define it.

 

[HAMel]

lol...awww my friend don't be so uptight as to think others have come down so hard upon others. That is not the case. And besides, we all know that when we age our actual skin becomes thinner, not thicker!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not "up tight" and for sure, our physical skin does get thinner. Ask me about it but the other "skin" is tough as nails as I've heard it all.

About the only time I come unhinged is when someone pulls a certain trigger that lingers in my soul which is why I never tell anyone about what really does get me upset. Only my wife and my "hair dresser know".

It's just ironic to me that what I believe is because I believe it and immediately here come the debunkers.

In the mean time we post thread after thread asking such as, "Why are the youth leaving church?". "Why are local churches losing members?" "Why are believers laying around so dormant?" Why this and why that?

Well, perhaps people at large are growing a little tired of being compartmentalized, folded, spindled, mutilated and beat up on.

...this is a DEBATE FORUM, right, so lets debate this for a bit.

 

[preacher4truth]

lol...awww my friend don't be so uptight as to think others have come down so hard upon others. That is not the case. And besides, we all know that when we age our actual skin becomes thinner, not thicker!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not "up tight" and for sure, our physical skin does get thinner. Ask me about it but the other "skin" is tough as nails as I've heard it all.

:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

Understood. So it seems to me that the removing of God's presence or his Spirit in this sense is best understood as the removal of his approval, his patience (mercy) or immediate reign. Naturally God does not ever give up or lose his providential sovereignty. If that is how we understand God removing His Spirit then I am on board with that understanding.

Of course what I reject is the whole pre-trib scheme including the supposed removal of the Spirit however the pre-trib folks define it.

I see. Now, I would gather that those in the pretrib camp wold relate Genesis 6:3 with 2 Thess 2:7. Perhaps we could also include Romans 1:24 as well? So in that sense we can see what they 'mean' in that instance as to 'removal of the Spirit' (or however it needs to be worded). Keep in mind I am not agreeing with their eschatology, I am simply making a point.

 

[RLBosley]

I see. Now, I would gather that those in the pretrib camp wold relate Genesis 6:3 with 2 Thess 2:7. Perhaps we could also include Romans 1:24 as well? So in that sense we can see what they 'mean' in that instance as to 'removal of the Spirit' (or however it needs to be worded). Keep in mind I am not agreeing with their eschatology, I am simply making a point.

Oh yes I believe many do think of it in that way, I believe Yeshua was intending something similar.

But there is a faction that believes and teaches a removal of the Spirit from the earth, if not totally then at least in that the Spirit no longer convicts or indwells. That was the position I was arguing against which seemed to be promoted in this thread with the terms "presence of the Lord" and "Once the Holy Spirit is gone." To me that sounds like a complete removal of the Spirit from the earth, not a Gen 6:3 removal of mercy. Make sense?

 

[Yeshua1]

So only Jews and ALL Jews will be saved? Also, if a Jew is saved by Jesus, and indwelt by the Spirit, doesn't that mean they are then Christians??? Wouldn't a group of them, 144,000 if you wish, be a church???



And I did not do that. I was responding to a specific statement that said the Holy Spirit is removed.

The Jewish nation will have the full attention of God then, as he is going to make good of His promise to have isreal spiritually reborn again ay that time, in preparation for coming messiah..

BOTH gentiles/jews shall be harvested during that time, remember when the Apsotle John saw a gteat multitude taken out from great tribulation period/times?

 

[Yeshua1]

I see. Now, I would gather that those in the pretrib camp wold relate Genesis 6:3 with 2 Thess 2:7. Perhaps we could also include Romans 1:24 as well? So in that sense we can see what they 'mean' in that instance as to 'removal of the Spirit' (or however it needs to be worded). Keep in mind I am not agreeing with their eschatology, I am simply making a point.

Yes, as he would be acting in same fashion as before New Covenant, in that while he is still here, changed in just how he functions in relationship to at that time, he would only be saving out the chosen Jews/gentiles who have the mark of God on them, not mark of the Beast,,,