A Great Study...

[MB]

Oh yes I agree with that. But I'm missing the connection to the removal of the Spirit that some claim will happen.

Let me ask who else could restrain evil, but God's Mighty Spirit. I certainly do not know of anyone else that could. Certainly not any man on earth.
MB

 

[DHK]

I'm trying to make sense of what you said. You said that only Jews will be saved and that the Spirit will be gone in at least some sense.

I have said three times now that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.
I have quoted Scripture showing how they in the Tribulation will be convicted by the Holy Spirit but yet will not repent.
I gave you Scripture why it appears no one but the Jews will be saved from 2Thes.2.--"They will believe a lie...They will be given over to strong delusion...that they ALL may be damned."
However, I put a caveat with that saying that it is a controversial position.
I also said that the Jewish nation at that time will be saved when Christ comes again.

Previous to that we had posted and explained that:
Yes the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.
But He doesn't work in a vacuum. He works primarily (but not exclusively) through his chosen ones--believers in Christ. They are the salt of the earth, the light of the earth. They won't be there in The Tribulation. They will be raptured.
This is what is confusing you.
Note that I did not say the Holy Spirit is not there. He is. He is omnipresent. But if the believers are not there to give the gospel it becomes far more difficult for one to be saved, if not impossible seeing they are given over to believe a lie.

 

[HAMel]

DHK..., I'm in agreement with you. The Holy Spirit will not be put on a shelf somewhere awaiting the next assignment. No, the Holy Spirit will not have believers on scene to spread the gospel.

I am of the opinion (seeing as how I ain't all that edumacted) but do believe that many will be saved during this time of tribulation as they come to realize their "religion" was wrong and it failed them. Course, it will cost them their "heads" perhaps.

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh yes I believe many do think of it in that way, I believe Yeshua was intending something similar.

But there is a faction that believes and teaches a removal of the Spirit from the earth, if not totally then at least in that the Spirit no longer convicts or indwells. That was the position I was arguing against which seemed to be promoted in this thread with the terms "presence of the Lord" and "Once the Holy Spirit is gone." To me that sounds like a complete removal of the Spirit from the earth, not a Gen 6:3 removal of mercy. Make sense?

I'm not so certain they all believe the removal to be in totality, but in restraint. I think your view may be a straw man argument for the most part brother.

 

[righteousdude2]

I would agree .....

By that logic then God is being an abusive parent to Iraqi Christians right now who are suffering horribly, indeed they suffer great tribulation right now, at the hands of Muslim extremists.

Also the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the earth. The Spirit is God. God is omnipresent. Thus he is always here. For the Spirit to be removed from the earth he would first have to cease being God.

..... there are believers suffering in most parts of the world. Just recently, believers in Mosul, Iraq was told to leave or die. And the same is true in parts of Africa dominated by terrorists!

That would say that believers are suffering for the Gospel, and it is as it was in the early days of the church. Why would God spare us from some suffering and tribulation; I look at the disciples and the early church, and the horrible deaths many underwent for their faith? Unless those that honestly believe the church will be taken before the tribulations are the same group that believed the gifts ended in Acts; I do not see us being spared.

I only hope that should Jesus's tarry past the initial days of the tribulation that those who are thinking it would not happen to them, will, in fact, be strong enough to withstand the sharp blade of the executioner's sword.

I'd rather be somewhat prepared, and if we go early, count it all joy, then not be expecting wrath in this world and falling for lack of faith and disappointment in God to protect His children.

As for suffering, has anyone watched an ad for St. Judes Children Hospital lately? You see those little ones with end stage cancer going through surgeries and chemo and radiation, and you wonder why a loving God would allow such suffering? Are the realities in life any different the tribulation? I'd say no! We are all going to suffer, and it is not Gods doing, but rather than at the end of the suffering that we return t God better than every expected, and to never again face suffering.

I believe that the American church is more focused on pre trib, than those in other parts of the world. And I believe that because in some ways, American believers seem to feel spiritually entitled and immune to suffering of any kind!

Again, I am ready for whatever the world hands me, and it Jesus happens to come before the world starts to hand me my head, then I'll be the first to shout a big Hallelujah!

That is my opinion, and it doesn't matter much in the greater scheme of life! I just had to put my couple of pennies in the mix! :thumbs:

 

[righteousdude2]

Actually ....

And besides, we all know that when we age our actual skin becomes thinner, not thicker!!!!!!!!!! :laugh: :smilewinkgrin:

are skin becomes thinner [look at how easy we bruise, and we can call the social services and tell them our wife beat us], and it waves and lfaps in the wind when the car windows are down and the arm goes out the window.

In fact, my arm skin is so loose, it nearly knocked me out last week while waving at a friend! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[RLBosley]

The Jewish nation will have the full attention of God then, as he is going to make good of His promise to have isreal spiritually reborn again ay that time, in preparation for coming messiah..

BOTH gentiles/jews shall be harvested during that time, remember when the Apsotle John saw a gteat multitude taken out from great tribulation period/times?

You totally ignored my questions.

Let me ask who else could restrain evil, but God's Mighty Spirit. I certainly do not know of anyone else that could. Certainly not any man on earth.
MB

I agree with that. I believe that God's Spirit is restraining evil men every day.

I have said three times now that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.
I have quoted Scripture showing how they in the Tribulation will be convicted by the Holy Spirit but yet will not repent.
I gave you Scripture why it appears no one but the Jews will be saved from 2Thes.2.--"They will believe a lie...They will be given over to strong delusion...that they ALL may be damned."
However, I put a caveat with that saying that it is a controversial position.
I also said that the Jewish nation at that time will be saved when Christ comes again.

Previous to that we had posted and explained that:
Yes the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.
But He doesn't work in a vacuum. He works primarily (but not exclusively) through his chosen ones--believers in Christ. They are the salt of the earth, the light of the earth. They won't be there in The Tribulation. They will be raptured.
This is what is confusing you.
Note that I did not say the Holy Spirit is not there. He is. He is omnipresent. But if the believers are not there to give the gospel it becomes far more difficult for one to be saved, if not impossible seeing they are given over to believe a lie.

So again, it seems you are saying that Jews will be saved, simply because they are Jews, but they will not be indwelt by the Spirit. You said earlier that this is an inaccurate summary of your belief, but that appears to be exactly what you are saying.

I'm not so certain they all believe the removal to be in totality, but in restraint. I think your view may be a straw man argument for the most part brother.

I never said they all believe that. In fact I pointed out that there is "faction" of pre-tribbers who believe that, not all. I've seen it, I've been taught it.

..... there are believers suffering in most parts of the world. Just recently, believers in Mosul, Iraq was told to leave or die. And the same is true in parts of Africa dominated by terrorists!

That would say that believers are suffering for the Gospel, and it is as it was in the early days of the church. Why would God spare us from some suffering and tribulation; I look at the disciples and the early church, and the horrible deaths many underwent for their faith? Unless those that honestly believe the church will be taken before the tribulations are the same group that believed the gifts ended in Acts; I do not see us being spared.

I only hope that should Jesus's tarry past the initial days of the tribulation that those who are thinking it would not happen to them, will, in fact, be strong enough to withstand the sharp blade of the executioner's sword.

I'd rather be somewhat prepared, and if we go early, count it all joy, then not be expecting wrath in this world and falling for lack of faith and disappointment in God to protect His children.

As for suffering, has anyone watched an ad for St. Judes Children Hospital lately? You see those little ones with end stage cancer going through surgeries and chemo and radiation, and you wonder why a loving God would allow such suffering? Are the realities in life any different the tribulation? I'd say no! We are all going to suffer, and it is not Gods doing, but rather than at the end of the suffering that we return t God better than every expected, and to never again face suffering.

I believe that the American church is more focused on pre trib, than those in other parts of the world. And I believe that because in some ways, American believers seem to feel spiritually entitled and immune to suffering of any kind!

Again, I am ready for whatever the world hands me, and it Jesus happens to come before the world starts to hand me my head, then I'll be the first to shout a big Hallelujah!

That is my opinion, and it doesn't matter much in the greater scheme of life! I just had to put my couple of pennies in the mix! :thumbs:

All in all I agree. And I absolutely think you are right that most of the American church has a spiritual entitlement attitude.

 

[preacher4truth]

I never said they all believe that. In fact I pointed out that there is "faction" of pre-tribbers who believe that, not all. I've seen it, I've been taught it.

Correct as that is not what I said. My point was (having departed from the fundies myself) that the removal is not believed to be in totality but in restraint.

 

[Yeshua1]

Correct as that is not what I said. My point was (having departed from the fundies myself) that the removal is not believed to be in totality but in restraint.

He that is restraining the final rise of the Antichrist shall remove his influence here on earth, and then we see how bad it gets when "hell come to earth"

 

[DHK]

So again, it seems you are saying that Jews will be saved, simply because they are Jews, but they will not be indwelt by the Spirit. You said earlier that this is an inaccurate summary of your belief, but that appears to be exactly what you are saying.

Where did I say they would not be indwelt with the Spirit. Those are your words, your conclusions that you are reading into my posts, and for some reason without any justification.
The Holy Spirit is omniscient and can act any way that he pleases.
Christ is coming for His own--the Jews, and when they, as a nation, turn to him, they most certainly will be indwelt by His Spirit. That prophecy is given in over and over again in the OT, especially in Jeremiah.

I never said my summary was inaccurate. I am mature enough to state that when there are points that people may disagree or a different opinion is allowable without any major contradiction to say so.
The only time I said that is the point on whether or not it is possible for others besides Jews to be saved during the Tribulation. Some say yes; some say no. That doesn't alter the chronological order of events.

So why are you confused? Christ for His own. They as a nation turn to Him. The prophecy is fulfilled. "So then all Israel shall be saved."
The Millennial Kingdom then starts at which time many more prophecies shall be fulfilled. Read Isaiah 2 and 11.

 

[RLBosley]

Where did I say they would not be indwelt with the Spirit. Those are your words, your conclusions that you are reading into my posts, and for some reason without any justification.
The Holy Spirit is omniscient and can act any way that he pleases.
Christ is coming for His own--the Jews, and when they, as a nation, turn to him, they most certainly will be indwelt by His Spirit. That prophecy is given in over and over again in the OT, especially in Jeremiah.

I never said my summary was inaccurate. I am mature enough to state that when there are points that people may disagree or a different opinion is allowable without any major contradiction to say so.
The only time I said that is the point on whether or not it is possible for others besides Jews to be saved during the Tribulation. Some say yes; some say no. That doesn't alter the chronological order of events.

So why are you confused? Christ for His own. They as a nation turn to Him. The prophecy is fulfilled. "So then all Israel shall be saved."
The Millennial Kingdom then starts at which time many more prophecies shall be fulfilled. Read Isaiah 2 and 11.

I was not confused because of your eschatological scheme, i know dispensationalism. I used to believe it myself.

I was confused because you said this:

In another sense He is, because God works through men, and that body of believers that He works through will be gone.
He says to the believer now:
"You are the salt of the earth; You are the light of the world."
There will be no salt to restrain the evil to come; no light to tell of The Light that shines into the hearts of men. In that sense He is gone.

You say that those the Spirit indwells will be gone, "in that sense He, the Spirit, is gone." Your own words. You say that to the believer now he says that we are the salt and light and you say after the rapture there will be no salt or light. To me that sounds a lot like you were saying that those who believe during the tribulation will not be indwelt. I was just trying to understand your position.

Believe it or not I'm not your enemy and I was trying to understand your view.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Yeshua1]

During the great tribulation, MANY shall come to know jesus as their Lord, and many of them will be killed off, as John saw a great multitude of the saved coming from that period of time...

ALL whose names were not written down in the Book of Life will worship and follow the beast
...

And while the Holy Spirit is not restraining evil as He does now, the saved will be saved just same way we are today...

 

[MB]

He that is restraining the final rise of the Antichrist shall remove his influence here on earth, and then we see how bad it gets when "hell come to earth"

Sounds reasonable to me though. I'm convinced it's the work of Satan or the one who comes to pave the way for the anti Christ. I believe the anti Christ will have his own type of John the Baptist preparing his way. Since Satan is a copy cat and wants so badly to be like God. The anti Christ hasn't any power as of yet, though this could change any time.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Sounds reasonable to me though. I'm convinced it's the work of Satan or the one who comes to pave the way for the anti Christ. I believe the anti Christ will have his own type of John the Baptist preparing his way. Since Satan is a copy cat and wants so badly to be like God. The anti Christ hasn't any power as of yet, though this could change any time.
MB

satan does not know when the Lord shall remove the influence of the Holy Spirit, so he has been trying to gey his agenda done through various antichrists like a hitler, but when the Spirit no longer restrains, then he can get the real one in!