A Highly Interesting Article

[Me4Him]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"IF", you're "already saved" prior to having the faith, then what is the point of saying Grace come "through faith"??

Why shouldn't the verse read:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The way the verse is constructed, "Through faith" is a "contributing factor" leading to Grace,

and if faith is removed from the verse, then Grace doesn't come "Through".

So how could you have Grace prior to Faith???

 

[gb93433]

I will say this about the article, Morris is very disturbed by the rising of a strong (and as he sees it virulent) form of Neo-Calvinism. He is mortified about what will happen if the Neo-Calvinistic (who's heroes include Mark Driscoll and John Piper) assume power in the SBC.

Don't you think that would include Paige Patterson along with Chapman?

What we see going on in the SBC reminds me of Gal. 5:15, "But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another."

 

[Winman]

Grace is not a thing. It is not an entity. The definition of grace:

1) grace
a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech

2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues

3) what is due to grace
a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
1) a gift of grace
2) benefit, bounty

4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Grace means unmerited favor. Grace is God giving to man what he does not deserve, mercy means God not giving man what he does deserve.

But grace is not a thing. You can show someone grace, but you cannot literally hand it to them.

Some here speak of grace as though it were an entity. It is not.

And really, it is neither grace or faith which gives us everlasting life, it is the Holy Spirit. The Bible says it is the spirit which quickeneth.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

When you believe on Jesus, then Jesus sends the Holy Spirit into you. It is then that you are regenerated and born again.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[canadyjd]

And really, it is neither grace or faith which gives us everlasting life, it is the Holy Spirit. The Bible says it is the spirit which quickeneth.

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Holy Spirit moves as He wills, according to His will and purpose. He cannot be manipulated, controlled, or predicted.

When you believe on Jesus, then Jesus sends the Holy Spirit into you. It is then that you are regenerated and born again.

When Holy Spirit moves upon you, regenerating you according to His will and purpose, you respond, (your human will now set free from sin so that you may respond), with repentance and faith, and are saved.

peace to youraying:

 

[JohnDB]

I will say this about the article, Morris is very disturbed by the rising of a strong (and as he sees it virulent) form of Neo-Calvinism. He is mortified about what will happen if the Neo-Calvinistic (who's heroes include Mark Driscoll and John Piper) assume power in the SBC.

His address at the Convention was so foolish and sad that I'm surprised this is the point he decided to address. Nevermind his arrogant and childish comments about the Great Commission Resurgence.

I have great respect for many of my Reformed friends. They have a God given, Gospel driven passion to reach others for Christ. They are a valuable part of our convention. I'm not reformed. I have good reason not to be reformed.

Faith is a gift from God. That is all we need to say. Maybe it would be best if Brother Morris would turn to considering how his enormous office can best impact the world for Christ than worrying about which evangelism theology is best. Just a thought.

I think he has forgotten how to play ball...the best defense isn't by running interference on defense...it is by being on the offense.

Lack of funding right now has the 2-3 year missionary program for the IMB suspended. About half of the permanant missionaries that are approved are actually being sent at this moment. And I do understand his timidity about sending the "reformed" people...many of them (as evidensed on this thread) are rather virulent about spreading Calvin's five points...when we would much rather they spend their energy in spreading the Gospel. So I will say that his caution is warranted. Also we don't want to send those with a "private prayer language" either...that is outside our denominational guidelines.
Where I do really believe that many of our Charismatic bretheren are saved...they ain't Baptist...and Charismatics are not really needing any more support in foreign missions from the Baptists either.

I did speak with the IMB today though and I do believe that we will be of service to each other in the future...but it does make me wonder what the future will bring.
I won't be heading to the field for several years yet but...well...I got faith that things will still be OK somehow.

 

[BaptistBob]

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Holy Spirit moves as He wills, according to His will and purpose. He cannot be manipulated, controlled, or predicted. When Holy Spirit moves upon you, regenerating you according to His will and purpose, you respond, (your human will now set free from sin so that you may respond), with repentance and faith, and are saved.

peace to youraying:

No, the passage simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted. Read Calvinists D. A. Carson (my old prof.) and Tenney (among others) on this issue. It will probably be easier to accept coming from Calvinists.

 

[Winman]

When Holy Spirit moves upon you, regenerating you according to His will and purpose, you respond, (your human will now set free from sin so that you may respond), with repentance and faith, and are saved.

No, the scriptures say that those who believe receive the Holy Ghost.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

And it is the spirit that quickeneth. So, a person cannot receive the Holy Ghost until they believe on Christ. Then and only then do they receive the Holy Spirit that quickens and regenerates them. Sorry, that the scriptures contradict your belief.

I will agree that the Holy Spirit draws a person, and calls a person. But the Holy Spirit cannot be received inside you until you believe.

 

[Me4Him]

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive:

for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Uh, Oh, people believing "BEFORE" the Holy Ghost came????

How can you have grace unless the spirit comes and how can you have faith without the grace???

I think the theory that faith comes with grace just went down the drain. :laugh:

I don't know if you noticed that or not, but to make sure "no one" missed it, I repost it.

 

[canadyjd]

No, the passage simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted. Read Calvinists D. A. Carson (my old prof.) and Tenney (among others) on this issue. It will probably be easier to accept coming from Calvinists.

Let me quote from Carson and we'll see:

Carson,D.A., The Gospel According to John, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1991, pp197-198.

(Concerning John 3:8)
"The point is that the wind can be neither controlled nor understood by human beings...But that does not mean we cannot detect the wind's effect...So it is with the Spirit. We can neither control Him nor understand Him. But that does not mean we cannot witness his effects. Where the Spirit works, the effects are undeniable and unmistakeable...

....So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. The person who is 'born of the Spirit' can neither be controlled nor understood by persons of but one birth. As the 'water and spirit' birth is grounded in Ezekiel 36:25-27.... so there may be an allusion here to Ezekiel 37. There God's breath/Spirit comes upon the valley of dry bones and the dry bones are revived; God's people come to life. Thus it is with everyone born of the Spirit; they have their 'origin and destiny in the unseen God'....not in 'human decision or a husband's will, for they are 'born of God.'"
(emphasis mine)

As with nearly everything else you post on this subject, you give only part of the story and ignore the main point being made. Such an argument can only be made from ignorance (which I don't believe in your case) or intentional intellectual dishonesty (which I do believe in your case).

Your statement....

the passage simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted.

.... is not supported by D.A. Carson in his commentary.

Just the opposite, there is much more at work than "the ways of believers..."

Carson specifically affirms the initiation of Holy Spirit in the 'born again' experience. Just as God breathed on a bunch of dead bones and brought His people to life in Ezekiel's vision, Holy Spirit moves upon God's people to cause them to be 'born again' by the will of God.

You owe your old prof an apology for mis-characterizing his beliefs.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Uh, Oh, people believing "BEFORE" the Holy Ghost came????

How can you have grace unless the spirit comes and how can you have faith without the grace???

I think the theory that faith comes with grace just went down the drain. :laugh:

I don't know if you noticed that or not, but to make sure "no one" missed it, I repost it.

The passage says that those who believe were to recieve the Holy Spirit.

This refers to the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit which is given by God as a pledge promise of the truth of the gospel. That is but part of the work of Holy Spirit.

This does not refer to the movement of Holy Spirit in convicting the unsaved elect of sin, drawing the elect to Christ and regeneration of the elect so as to enable them to believe.

So, the theory remains sound.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

The passage says that those who believe were to recieve the Holy Spirit.

This refers to the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit which is given by God as a pledge promise of the truth of the gospel. That is but part of the work of Holy Spirit.

This does not refer to the movement of Holy Spirit in convicting the unsaved elect of sin, drawing the elect to Christ and regeneration of the elect so as to enable them to believe.

So, the theory remains sound.

peace to youraying:

Are you saying that people are regenerated before they receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

 

[BaptistBob]

Let me quote from Carson and we'll see: As with nearly everything else you post on this subject, you give only part of the story and ignore the main point being made. Such an argument can only be made from ignorance (which I don't believe in your case) or intentional intellectual dishonesty (which I do believe in your case).

Your statement.... .... is not supported by D.A. Carson in his commentary.

Just the opposite, there is much more at work than "the ways of believers..."

Carson specifically affirms the initiation of Holy Spirit in the 'born again' experience. Just as God breathed on a bunch of dead bones and brought His people to life in Ezekiel's vision, Holy Spirit moves upon God's people to cause them to be 'born again' by the will of God.

peace to youraying:

I'm doing my best to be nicer to you than you are to me. (Also, expect a lot of typos and other mistakes because I don't have time to edit.)

You missed his point because you projected your own meaning upon the words. His point is that the origin of the believer's new "born again" life will be in the Spirit, which had not come yet.

You missed his context. Here's what he said under his comments of verse 5 (emphasis his):

Some have argued that if the flow of the passage is anything like what has been described then it is hopelessly anachronistic, for John's Gospel makes it abundantly clear (cf. esp. 7:37-39) that the Holy Spirit would not be given until Jesus was glorified, and it is the Holy Spirit who must effect the new birth, even if the expression 'born of water and spirit' does not refer to the Holy Spirit per se. So how can Jesus demand of Nicodemus such generation?

The charge is ill-conceived. Jesus is not demanding that Nicodemus experience the new birth in the instant; rather, he is forcefully articulating what one must experience if one is to enter the kingdom of God...The coming-to-faith of the first followers of Jesus was in certain respects unique: they could not become 'Christians' in the full-orbed sense, and experience the full sweep of the new birth until after the resurrection and glorification of Jesus. If we take the Gospel records seriously, we must conclude that Jesus sometimes proclaimed truth the full significance and application of which could be fully appreciated and experienced only after he had risen form the dead. John 3 falls under this category.

Now, in addition to that, you quoted his allusion to John 1:13, but skipped over the reference. What he's doing there is assuming you know and understand what he said about "'human decision or a husband's will, for they are 'born of God." You obviously don't know his position, which is that the passage speaks of the comparison of being born of natural descent [from Abraham] (a father's decision "who is understood to take the lead in sexual matters") and the new birth (which is fulfilled after Christ's return from the grave, for those with Abrahamic faith). He finishes by saying he doesn't take a position on the relationship to faith, but he comes close to mine. And I can help him the rest of the way.

Finally, the allusion to Ez 36 involves God renewing his faithful. They are the ones crying out "we are dry bones," and God tells them this will not last forever.

You owe your old prof an apology for mis-characterizing his beliefs.

:laugh: He'll probably give me a pat on the back.

 

[Allan]

Are you saying that people are regenerated before they receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Amy, the typical Reformed position is that the person is regenerated, and thus justified, sanctified, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit before they believe.
These 3 refer to the person who is regenerate according to scripture.

What I have never understood is that scripture declares that none of these transpired apart from the excersizing of 'faith' first. You can find these in either of my two threads dealing Regeneration.

 

[Allan]

Since the subject is up about faith preceding regeneration or vise-verse, how about we go with the biblical model give to us IN scripture. (faith preceding regeneration).

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days:

Notice first
1. Choose (life or death)

Now how do I know that this isn't AFTER regeneration. Well look at the very next verse that tells you what will happen AFTER the choice has been made:
Notice - Choose 'that you may'..."
1. Love the Lord your God
2. Obey His voice (obedience)
3. Cleave to him
4. His is their life (spiritual) and length of days (physical)

"choose .. that you may" indicates something that has not yet transpired in their lives. The choice isn't a consequence of what has already happened (love God, obey God and cling to Him), what happens is the consequence or the result of their choice.

Thus what scripture declares - point blank - is that unless you choose to life (Christ) you will not ever Love God, Obey God, Cleave to God, and have the life that is in God. None of these, according to the passage, transpire before faith. By faith we choose to love God, and thus we desire obey God, and to cleave to God, while being IN God (Christ).

 

[JohnDB]

Don't you think that would include Paige Patterson along with Chapman?

What we see going on in the SBC reminds me of Gal. 5:15, "But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another."

I would say that we could use a strong leader...such as the type that led the SBC to the size that it is today.

Herding cats has never been easy...or for just anyone.

 

[canadyjd]

Are you saying that people are regenerated before they receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

I am saying the Holy Spirit is at work on an unbeliever prior to the permenant indwelling that takes place at salvation.

That work includes regeneration, which frees the unbeliever from the enslavement to sin and allows them to see the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That person is able then respond with repentance and faith unto salvation, and then they shall recieve Holy Spirit indwelling.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

I'm doing my best to be nicer to you than you are to me. (Also, expect a lot of typos and other mistakes because I don't have time to edit.)

Brother, I didn't say anything about typos, and being condescending is not being nice.

You claimed John 3v.8 " simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted."

You then encouraged me to look at what D.A. Carson said, claiming that would back up your interpretation.

I looked at what D.A. Carson said, which I quoted. It did not back up your claims.

D.A. Carson interprets the passage as meaning far more than your statement that it "simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted."

What you left out is the main point of the passage, and that is the work of God in the salvation of men, through Holy Spirit.

That means you are either ignorant of what D.A. Carson says (which I don't believe), or you are deliberately distorting what D.A. Carson says in an attempt to make it fit what you want to believe. That is intellectual dishonesty.

I doubt Carson would pat you on the back for such an effort, but you know him better than I.

peace to youraying:

 

[Me4Him]

The passage says that those who believe were to recieve the Holy Spirit.

This refers to the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit which is given by God as a pledge promise of the truth of the gospel. That is but part of the work of Holy Spirit.

This does not refer to the movement of Holy Spirit in convicting the unsaved elect of sin, drawing the elect to Christ and regeneration of the elect so as to enable them to believe.

So, the theory remains sound.

peace to youraying:

Surely, you're not going to make me search/repost all the quotes ya'll made that man can't have faith until "AFTER" God "enable" us by his Spirit and Grace, "Are you"??? :laugh:


"faith comes by hearing", and we have the ability to believe anything we hear, (unless it comes from "Washington, DC") :laugh:

What's the point in giving the law to make man aware of his sin if this knowledge is of no benefit to him, one way or the other,

And using the law to justify condemnation, under these condition, is a violation of that law,

When God gave the law, he restricted himself to obeying that law, or prove to be "LYING", which is impossible,

God is not free to judge by predilection, as many claim, he must obey the law, right along with man.

 

[BaptistBob]

Brother, I didn't say anything about typos, and being condescending is not being nice.

I didn't say you said anything about typos. I was apologizing in advance for errors in my post.

You claimed John 3v.8 " simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted."

You then encouraged me to look at what D.A. Carson said, claiming that would back up your interpretation.

I looked at what D.A. Carson said, which I quoted. It did not back up your claims.

D.A. Carson interprets the passage as meaning far more than your statement that it "simply means that the ways of believers cannot be controlled or predicted."

What you left out is the main point of the passage, and that is the work of God in the salvation of men, through Holy Spirit.

That means you are either ignorant of what D.A. Carson says (which I don't believe), or you are deliberately distorting what D.A. Carson says in an attempt to make it fit what you want to believe. That is intellectual dishonesty.

I doubt Carson would pat you on the back for such an effort, but you know him better than I.

peace to youraying:

No, my comments on the verse stand unrefuted. In your blind rage over being embarrassed, you are grasping at any straw you can get your hands on.

First off, your comments to Amy said that the verse says that we must be regenerated and "born again" prior to faith. Carson says believers were not born again at that time because Christ had not died and risen. The new life to come will be different, and believers will not be controlled or predicted because of the influence of the Holy Spirit. That was the context of my statement, which was not intended to be an outline of the entire passage.

But my comments on the rest of the passage both compliment what I had already said and continue to decimate your argument.

However, to compound the lack of comprehension, you put Carson's comments on John 1:13 and Ez 36 in bold print and said the following:

Carson specifically affirms the initiation of Holy Spirit in the 'born again' experience. Just as God breathed on a bunch of dead bones and brought His people to life in Ezekiel's vision, Holy Spirit moves upon God's people to cause them to be 'born again' by the will of God.

Your original comment was that the Holy Spirit irresistibly regenerates people in order to believe. I then commented, and you said I was wrong and then you used his comments on John 1:13 and Ez 36 to support your contention (a typical Calvinist mistake). The only problem is that you had no idea what he was talking about, and then you went on to make your original point, which was wrong.

Your attempt to muddy the waters is understandable. How else can you save face?!

 

[webdog]

I am saying the Holy Spirit is at work on an unbeliever prior to the permenant indwelling that takes place at salvation.

That work includes regeneration, which frees the unbeliever from the enslavement to sin and allows them to see the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That person is able then respond with repentance and faith unto salvation, and then they shall recieve Holy Spirit indwelling.

peace to youraying:

...so man passes from death to life (regeneration) in order to receive another kind of life? What kind of life are they regenerated to receive?