A little "end time" confusion (Who is leaving?)

[mandym]

Was meant to be accusatory not mean spirited. I've seen this all too much - a reliance on a theological system rather than Scripture (even if I believe that theological system is right). Instead of answering the question w/ Scripture, he feel back to his system of a rapture and concluded something that he contended was not in the text. So it was meant to be given in the tone of accusation. And accusation is, in my opinion, not mean spirited but in the same realm as rebuke or correcting.

Maybe you should disagree with clear scriptural facts rather than mean spirited and belittling accusations.

 

[beameup]

MK
Dispensational theory has mt 24 describing the rapture , then a 7 yr tribulation, then a thousand yr millenial kingdom/
Others have it at the last day as Jesus said.
Those who do not follow dispy ideas...see Mt 24 as fulfilled in 70ad.

Matthew 24 has nothing to do with Gentiles, it has nothing to do with the Gentile Bride of Christ, nothing to do with the Rapture.
Matthew 24 is addressed specifically to (genetic) Israelite believers. Were the very first "believers" (genetic) Israelites? YES
Did the very first believers - (genetic) Israelites - observe the Law? YES
The Tribulation (genetic) Israelite disciples will find Matthew 24 is addressed to them as well (the 144,000).

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately [for close disciples only], saying,
Tell us, (1)when shall these things be? and
(2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, and
(3) [what shall be the sign] of the end of the world? - Mat 24:3

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. -
(ie: every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation - Rev 5:9) - Mat 24:14

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet (the abomination of desolation takes place
in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies - 2 Thes 2:4) - Mat 24:15

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: - Mat 24:16 & 20

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved [left alive] - Mat 24:21, 22a

 

[menageriekeeper]

Dispensational theory has mt 24 describing the rapture , then a 7 yr tribulation, then a thousand yr millenial kingdom/
Others have it at the last day as Jesus said.
Those who do not follow dispy ideas...see Mt 24 as fulfilled in 70ad.

Yes, I know this. But I don't want to know about Mt 24 except as how it applies to the passage from Mt 13. Mt 24 implies that the elect will be removed from among the non-elect. Mt 13 clearly says the "tares" will be removed from the wheat. Both events seem to occur ON THIS EARTH!

How do we reconcile one passage with another? I don't care if you are dispy or not. I'd like both views, please. (though, raised as a dispy I can see more probs with this view than Iconoclast's)

 

[thomas15]

MK
Dispensational theory has mt 24 describing the rapture , then a 7 yr tribulation, then a thousand yr millenial kingdom/

Iconoclast will say with a straight face that he was at one time a dispie but then by magic he grew up, became more sophisticated, highly educated and if given five minutes of face time with a dispie could actually show them the error of their ways, you know turn them into a preterist.

How someone could claim to know dispie doctrine and not know that Matt ch 24 is not the rapture is, well you know a mystery but what do you do with a guy who thinks Jesus returned in AD 70, that the times of the gentiles are over in spite of the fact that Jerusalem is still being trampled on and thinks we are living in the new covenant Kingdom of Christ?

 

[thomas15]

That is not biblical theology but systematic theology. And those theologians you mentioned wrote systematics not biblical theologies.

Actually, Truth of the matter is Ryrie did in fact write a New Testament Biblical theology. I have a copy.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast will say with a straight face that he was at one time a dispie but then by magic he grew up, became more sophisticated, highly educated and if given five minutes of face time with a dispie could actually show them the error of their ways, you know turn them into a preterist.

How someone could claim to know dispie doctrine and not know that Matt ch 24 is not the rapture is,

Thomas my friend.....I have heard Premill men preach it that is how:laugh:

well you know a mystery but what do you do with a guy who thinks Jesus returned in AD 70,

I do not think Jesus returned bodily in 70ad...it was a coming in judgement as the texts are clear.


that the times of the gentiles are over in spite of the fact that Jerusalem is still being trampled on

The end of the jewish age was given an exclamation point in 70ad....The heavenly Jerusalem is where the throne and rule is now.


and thinks we are living in the new covenant Kingdom of Christ?

We are in the kingdom at New birth Thomas...you should know this,as per example:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son

you are living now Thomas, yes? are you translated from darkness to light?

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Thomas ...i have not forgotten that we will meet up sometime for some study,along i-78.....they have been running me long, in wyoming now,going toward oregon...so some day you will get your chance to show me where I have gone wrong:laugh:

I am far from an expert.....just have taken a look at some of the other men and like much of what they have wrote.


I have heard premill men find the "secret,invisible rapture" in this portion of Matt.24.....

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The problem is those taken in the flood were taken in judgement, not a rapture.

Iconoclast will say with a straight face that he was at one time a dispie but then by magic he grew up, became more sophisticated, highly educated

Yes...I was and could still teach the premill scheme. I was busy defending this position for quite awhile until I really considered what other godly men have seen in scripture. I was fighting for the Premill position,when truth overcame the system I tried to defend.....sophistication, or magic had nothing to do with it Thomas...I assure you.

It is God's truth, not mine or yours

If you and mandym and revmac have it correct...it will happen that way......if I and others Post/amill have it right it will happen that way......your endtime tribulation map will not change God's decree...lol

 

[menageriekeeper]

How someone could claim to know dispie doctrine and not know that Matt ch 24 is not the rapture is

Thomas, I too have listened to more than one sermon from this text which claimed it described the Rapture. If it does not, then the two passages make much better sense when compared.

Of course the next question is: Is this a spiritual division or a physical one?

 

[Greektim]

Actually, Truth of the matter is Ryrie did in fact write a New Testament Biblical theology. I have a copy.

I liked how you cited what the book was. Should be easy if you have a copy. Ryrie is without dispute a systematic theologian.

 

[Greektim]

Maybe you should disagree with clear scriptural facts rather than mean spirited and belittling accusations.

Maybe Snow is able to wear big boy pants and take the comment as it was intended... something I find difficult for you to grasp.

 

[convicted1]

This morning the preacher was preaching about money. (new building campaign coming up) During some of the more unapplicable to me portions of the sermon I got to reading the scripture around the topic passage (which he stretched a bit imo to fit). While doing so, I read a passage I've read more than once but again found something I hadn't considered. Here's the passage:



So here's the question: Who is leaving. Are Christians going to be raptured out as suggested else where in scripture OR are the "tares" leaving as described in this passage? How do we reconcile these two seemingly conflicting views of the end of the world?

When Jesus comes in the Cloud to execute judgement, He will seperate the sheep from the goats. The dead in Christ will rise first. Those who are alive in Christ at tha momemt will be changed into the spiritual body likened unto Jesus' body, and will rise to meet Him in the Cloud. Those who died in their sins will also rise, and their final sentence of guilty is rendered, and they will be cast ino the lake of fire, along with satan and his minions.

IOW, everyone is leaving; some up, and some down:tear: .

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, I know this. But I don't want to know about Mt 24 except as how it applies to the passage from Mt 13. Mt 24 implies that the elect will be removed from among the non-elect. Mt 13 clearly says the "tares" will be removed from the wheat. Both events seem to occur ON THIS EARTH!

How do we reconcile one passage with another? I don't care if you are dispy or not. I'd like both views, please. (though, raised as a dispy I can see more probs with this view than Iconoclast's)

MK.....
In mt 13 those who offend are removed from the Kingdom...
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

they shall gather out of his kingdom....Jesus rules now in the midst of His enemies,despite what Thomas protests...We are in the Kingdom...Jesus reigns as Lord
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

 

[convicted1]

MK.....
In mt 13 those who offend are removed from the Kingdom...
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

they shall gather out of his kingdom....Jesus rules now in the midst of His enemies,despite what Thomas protests...We are in the Kingdom...Jesus reigns as Lord
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: [SIZE=7"]!!!!!!!![/SIZE]


I like what you're preaching!!!!

 

[convicted1]

Let me see if I understand what's being said:

The dispensationalists believe that this division occurs AFTER the rapture and tribulation time and describes those left on earth, nonChristian and those who were converted during.

And the rest of you believe that this event happens practically simultaneous with the rapture and the Great White Judgement seat event? (and perhaps deny there is a rapture at all?)

Dispensationalists teach a 1,007 years between the two resurrections. The church is raptured out, the dead in Christ rise, and are gone. Then the seven years tribulation, with the first 3.5 of it being trib, and after the anti-christ is revealed, and destroyed, then 3.5 years of great trib. At the end of this, Jesus comes with His saints, and fights, and defeats satan. Then at the end of His "reign" here, the dead in sin come forth at the GWT judgement, and are sentenced to the lake of fire. The problem I have with this is that when Jesus came forth from the grave that third morning, He defeated satan.

1 Cor. 15:54-58
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Now, in the amil, you have a general resurrection, where Jesus comes in the Cloud. The dead in Christ shall rise first. Those who are alive and remain, shall be changed in the moment and twinkling of an eye, and they too, shall join Jesus in the cloud. Then the dead in sin also rise, are rendered guilty, and cast into the lake of fire.

1 Thess. 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Matthew 31-46

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Here, you can see where Jesus gives the Sheep and the goats their reward, at the same place and time. So, I think the amill position is the way to go. But, if you are unsure, read, study, and pray that God gives it to you, and not man.

 

[thomas15]

Iconoclast, you may be able to point to some preacher who claimes Matt ch 24 is the rapture but you cannot point to a mainstream theologian pre-mil dispie who does. Just like there is disagreement among preterists and amills on some points of theology. But since you pretend to use an educated approach to theology it would be expected that you wouldn't repeat the outside the mainstream views but I guess this is asking too much. I suppose if I were trying to defend a theology that has zero in the way of historical and Biblical proof I might be tempted to do as you do.

I have asked many time where you attend church services so that I too could join you on Sunday and enter the Kingdom where Christ is King, ruling with an iron rod sans the sin and blindness. But alas, I guess there is no room left.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, you may be able to point to some preacher who claimes Matt ch 24 is the rapture but you cannot point to a mainstream theologian pre-mil dispie who does. Just like there is disagreement among preterists and amills on some points of theology. But since you pretend to use an educated approach to theology it would be expected that you wouldn't repeat the outside the mainstream views but I guess this is asking too much. I suppose if I were trying to defend a theology that has zero in the way of historical and Biblical proof I might be tempted to do as you do.

I have asked many time where you attend church services so that I too could join you on Sunday and enter the Kingdom where Christ is King, ruling with an iron rod sans the sin and blindness. But alas, I guess there is no room left.

Thomas,
I will have to check with JF,or Wayne Grudem to see if sarcasm is one of the gifts of the spirit,that is "moving" among church members now....maybe i should try it...like trying to make rhyming noises and see if it becomes a secret tongue?

Thanks for your kind words. I know you were trying to think well about me.
If when I get home and pull Dwight Pentecost, or John Walvoord of the book shelf [they are not usually in my book bag these days]...will you publically admit your ignorance on this...or will you come up with an excuse as to why they are not a valid source....
watch some jack van impe....and you will probably hear it firsthand.

Here are some "images" for you Thomas
]

http://www.google.com/search?q=rapt...Q&biw=1093&bih=473&sei=guXCTsmbNYiYiALQxIWPDA

but I guess this is asking too much. I suppose if I were trying to defend a theology that has zero in the way of historical and Biblical proof I might be tempted to do as you do.

This quote shows a wilfull ignorance of the whole issue being discussed. I will try an excuse it to your misguided zeal.

so that I too could join you on Sunday and enter the Kingdom where Christ is King

Well Thomas...if you are saying that you are not in Christs kingdom yet, well today is still the day of salvation for any who will repent and believe the gospel. I thought you professed to be a christian
All christians are in the kingdom of God. You say you have not entered the kingdom rule of the lord Jesus Christ???

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Jesus reigns right now.....

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Jesus rules now and forever.......
Are you saying he does not rule right now?????

Like these persons say?

12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

Who reigns....

 

[Greektim]

Iconoclast, you may be able to point to some preacher who claimes Matt ch 24 is the rapture but you cannot point to a mainstream theologian pre-mil dispie who does. Just like there is disagreement among preterists and amills on some points of theology. But since you pretend to use an educated approach to theology it would be expected that you wouldn't repeat the outside the mainstream views but I guess this is asking too much. I suppose if I were trying to defend a theology that has zero in the way of historical and Biblical proof I might be tempted to do as you do.

I have asked many time where you attend church services so that I too could join you on Sunday and enter the Kingdom where Christ is King, ruling with an iron rod sans the sin and blindness. But alas, I guess there is no room left.

Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum does. And he is a premier dispie theologian. His eschatology book Footsteps of the Messiah argues clearly for a pretrib rapture in Matt. 24.

 

[Iconoclast]

Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum does. And he is a premier dispie theologian. His eschatology book Footsteps of the Messiah argues clearly for a pretrib rapture in Matt. 24.

Thanks for the reference GT....I do not have my library with me on the road...
I know in the seventies this position was spoken against from everywhere.
I would be fine with it if it was the biblical position, but it does not really hold up to cross examination/...thanks again for the link:thumbsup:

 

[Greektim]

Thanks for the reference GT....I do not have my library with me on the road...
I know in the seventies this position was spoken against from everywhere.
I would be fine with it if it was the biblical position, but it does not really hold up to cross examination/...thanks again for the link:thumbsup:

Admittedly, you are right in that the academic dispo view by and large rejects matt 24 as a rapture passage. When I read Fruchtenbaum's book, I was a bit surprised.

 

[kyredneck]

A little "end time" confusion (Who is leaving?)

The only ones confused here are 'nonPrets'.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

'The world' here, is this 'world'....:

“....I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing.” Jn 18:20

....the world that the Prophet was sent to, the world that He spoke to, the one that He was immersed in during His entire ministry while in this 'world'.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

'The world' here, is this 'world'...:

39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers.
40 `As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age, Mt 13 YLT

...the consummation of the age of the Old Covenant, i.e., the removing (Heb 12:27) of that which had been added (Gal 3:19).

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Simply a reiteration of passages such as:

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43

 

[menageriekeeper]

So KYR, you are saying that this passage refers to the removal of Israel as God's representative to the world? And as such doesn't apply to any future event but was fullfilled at Christ's death with the tearing of the veil?