A-millennialism still reigns supreme -

Marauder: //If it were just Darby's eschatology no one [except Darbyites] would really care. However, he has a false theology of the people of God, dividing what is one into two, with his "parenthesis Church". //

It is illogical and marauder debate style to imply
that the other debater has beliefs they have NOT stated.
It is prejudice to place a person in a category
they do not want nor deserve.

And this is really ugly:

Acts 20:28-30
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

What is missing is the VERSION.

$3 check of Third Millennium Bible. No comma there
after "yourselves". Please note the person who posted this
information had the version right in front of them and
purposely withheld it AFTER BEING HUMBLY requested
to provide it.

$3 check of KJV1873 - a match.

The marauder has wasted $6 of God's money foolishly.
And quoting a scripture to beat up a poor innocent strawman - shame shame.

 

I hope i'm the only one wasting my time trying
to figure out a logic to this debate?

At least the person was nice enough to
show which version he was quoting. Thank you.

 

EE

You post from whatevet version suits your mood at the moment and then whine and cry over a version someone else uses. I routinely post from the 1769 KJV.

 

homever: "Revelation 20:4, if translated literally whuich Darbyites supposedly do, is talking about one group of people, the tribulation martyrs."

Ah ha! there we go with the discussion:

I say the 4th Kai in Rev 20:4 seperates two
unique sets.
He says that the 4th Kai in Rev 20:4 denotes
two equal sets (all elements of the first
set equals to an element of the second set).

Revelation 20:4 (Geneva Bible):
And I sawe seates: and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them, and I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnes of Iesus, and for the word of God, and which did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or on their handes: and they liued, and reigned with Christ a thousand yeere.

I Timothy 6:3-5 (HCSB):
If anyone teaches other doctrine and does not agree with the sound teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the teaching that promotes godliness, 4 he is conceited, understanding nothing, but having a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slanders, evil suspicions, 5 and constant disagreement among men whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain

So, is that Kai seperating two different sets
or uniting the same set?
According to the Doctrine of the Priesthood of the Believer,
each of us must discide for ourselves (unless
someone has a scripture that tells us which Kai
is which Kai???).

Big argument over the 4th Kai.
Anybody want to argure over Kai's #1, #2, and #3?
Nope, they don't split the men from the boys.

 

agreed. Now
maybe we both can remember it

 

OldRegular: "The passages from Thessalonians are not talking about a pretribulation rapture but the resurrection of the Saints at the Last Day, the sound of the Last Trumpet, as Jesus Christ tells us so clearly in John 5:28,29. "

You just don't know how silly that sounds tee hee

The "pretribulation rapture" is the
"resurrection of the saints at the Last Day"
They are one and the same.
The last Trumpet of the Church age is the
trumpet that calles forth the Church age
Christian elect saints at the start of the
tribulation day.

Note that the Last Trumpet of the Church age
will be the First Trumpet that my non-hearing friends
may hear. If it is loud enough to wake up the dead,
it will be lound enough for my non-hearing
brothers (sisters) to hear in thier new
deluxe just-like-Jesus hearing bodies. AMEN!

 

Ed I know this really sounds stupid, but as you know, prophecy and end-times is not my specialty.

I am trying to understand what a-mil is, exactly.

I was reading in a Baptist study Bible with notes by Criswell and another big Baptist preacher (who's name escapes me tonight). It had a chart and said a-mil stands for someone who believes that the future and past is interwoven into the Biblical prophecy and is not taken literally in any shape, form or fashion. In other words, there will be no tribulation, no milliniium or anti-christ.

Is this correct? If not can you explain the position of a true A-mil for me?

Thank you very much,
Phillip

 

Philip,

yes, all amills(many who are not full preterists) believe we are always in tribulations since Early Church, will continue till the end of this age at Christ's coming.

All amills believe antichrists already present upon earth according 1 John 4:3 since Early Church to today. The definition of antichrist means, a person who deny Jesus Christ came to earth in flesh that He is deity of God. We already see so many antichrists out there.

By the way, I BELIEVE the one false Messiah shall be revealed follow the apostasy of the Church will be in the great tribulation to persecute against Christians. I BELIEVE Satan shall transform into false Messiah as man, to be acts like Christ, shall deceive many people.

Rev. 20:3-5 speak of currently reign with Christ, many saints who already died, now in the heaven, reigning with Christ since from Calvary to now, will be continued till the time expired as when Satan shall be loosed out of the way, then deceived the world that will be after the apostasy of Church - 2 Thess. 2:3; 6-7; Rev. 17:8; and Rev. 20:7.

Later this week, I will discuss on 'a thousand', with verses, tell which one is literal or figurative.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

You didn't ask me but I question whether you can get an accurate description of what amillennialists believe from a dispensationalist. You certainly did not get one from the dispensationalist Criswell Study Bible.

Amillennialism

Those people who hold the amillennial doctrine believe in a general or universal resurrection [that is a resurrection of all the dead at the ‘second coming’ of Jesus Christ] followed by the general, ‘the Great White Throne’ judgment [Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 25:31-46]. A number of writers have noted that the term amillennialism does not accurately portray amillennial doctrine but implies that amillennialists do not believe in a millennium or ignore the first six verses of Revelation 20, neither of which is true. However, no one has suggested a more appropriate name that has received wide acceptance.

Perhaps the most significant passage of Scripture that teaches a general resurrection and judgment is spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ:

John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Other Scripture which teach a general resurrection and judgment are:

Daniel 12:1,2, KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Acts 24:14,15, KJV
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

It follows, therefore, that amillennialists do not believe that Jesus Christ reigns from an earthly throne for a period of one thousand years. Rather amillennialists in general believe that the deceased Saints [those who have part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ] are now reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven. Some amillennialists believe that the “millennial” reign refers to the influence of the Church in the world. This period [the millennium of Revelation 20, a definite but unrevealed period of time] extends from the ascension of Jesus Christ until His return, His Second Coming, in power and glory. Amillennialists in general recognize that the Church on earth has and will always undergo tribulation, as Jesus Christ promised:

John 16:33, KJV
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Some amillennialists believe that this tribulation will increase in intensity as the return of Jesus Christ approaches [Matthew 24]. Amillennialist believe that the Church is present during this period. To bring this tribulation to an end Jesus Christ returns with the souls of the deceased Saints. Many who hold the amillennialist view also believe that there will be a large scale conversion of the Jews prior to the return of Jesus Christ.

The glorious return of our Lord Jesus Christ will be accompanied by the trumpet of God and the shout of the archangel [Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:51,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; and Revelation 11:15-18]. At this time the dead in Christ will be resurrected [rise first], the living believers will be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and both groups will meet Jesus Christ in the air [where the resurrected bodies will reunite with their souls] and accompany Him to the earth. There will be a resurrection of those who died without Jesus Christ as Saviour, followed by the Great White Throne judgment [Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:11-15]. Satan, whose power has been limited by the victory of Jesus Christ over death [Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8, Matthew 12:28-29], and his followers will be cast into the lake of fire. [The chaining of Satan in Revelation 20 is a symbolic representation of this limitation on the power of Satan.] The new heaven and new earth will be created wherein dwelleth righteousness [2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 21:1]. There are many expositors who believe that rather than a completely new creation the heavens and earth will be restored to the purity with which they were originally created [See The Bible and the Future by Andrew Hoekema, Chapter 20]. This new creation and the life of the redeemed with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are gloriously described in Revelation 21-22.

The sound of the last trumpet accompanies the return of Jesus Christ in those passages ascribed by the dispensationalist to the ‘secret rapture’ of the church and also to passages that they agree describe His coming in power and glory. Obviously the last trumpet cannot sound at two different times.

Amillennialists in general believe that the Old Testament promises not fulfilled in the Church will be fulfilled in the new heaven and new earth. Hoekema discusses the implications of this belief in The Bible and the Future. It must be noted at this time that reference to the one thousand year period occurs only in Revelation 20. The glorious kingdom promised by God to His people in the Old Testament was to last forever, not one thousand years.

In Revelation 1:7, we have the promise of the return of Our Saviour, Behold, he cometh with clouds. In his discussion of this passage Philip Edgecumbe Hughes in his commentary The Book of Revelation writes [pages 20,21]:

“The Clouds intended here are not the dark storm clouds which presage divine judgment ..... but the bright clouds of His transcendental glory. They stand for the shekinah glory of God’s presence which caused the face of Moses to shine .....; and they are to be identified with the ‘bright cloud’ of Christ’s divine glory ..... on the mount of transfiguration and with the clouds which received Him ..... at his ascension. This association of the clouds of Christ’s coming with His glory is plainly made in Matthew 24:30, where He declares that all the tribes of the earth ..... shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Notice that in Revelation 1: 7 John also asserts unequivocally that the return of Jesus Christ will be visible, every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Although the Greek word translated ‘every’ does not necessarily mean the totality of mankind, I believe that is exactly what will happen. When Jesus Christ returns in power and glory to claim His Bride, the Church, and to judge the world I believe the resurrection of all the dead shall occur, every eye shall behold Him, and every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, all mankind bears accountability for the death of Jesus Christ. We who are saved, who have accepted that sacrificial death as atonement for our sins will rejoice at the sight of Him; we shall see Him in His glory, as He is, and be satisfied; we shall be filled with joy unspeakable and full of glory in His presence forevermore. However, those who pierced Him, who treated with contempt His sacrificial death, shall wail and cry to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. [Revelation 6:16, KJV].

I have attemped in the above paragraphs to present my understanding of amillennialism. There will obviously be some amillennialists who differ in certain aspects.

 

While I am at it I will present my understanding of dispensational doctrine [or Darbyism if you prefer] from the sources that I have read. I am sure that the Darbyites on this thread will take exception.

Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism as a system of Biblical interpretation was formally promulgated about 1830 by John Nelson Darby, a member of the Plymouth [England] Brethren. [Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] Irving was apparently the originator of ‘the secret rapture’ which is the bedrock of dispensational eschatology.] The dispensational system of interpretation, with its emphasis on Old Testament prophecy, began at a time when many of the established churches ignored Biblical prophecy. Darby’s emphasis on prophecy, therefore, captured the interest and perhaps the imagination of many. Darby visited the United States six times between 1859 and 1874 [John Newport in The Lion and the Lamb, page 100]. His teaching apparently exerted considerable influence on his contemporaries, particularly E. I. Scofield. The publication of the Scofield Reference Bible, which made the system of dispensational interpretation an integral part of the Bible notes, had a significant impact on the spread of dispensational thought.

Charles C. Ryrie in Chapter 4 of Dispensationalism argues that the beginning of dispensational thought is much earlier. He asserts that Pierre Poiret, a French philosopher and mystic, published a rudimentary system of dispensations in 1687 and that Isaac Watts [1674-1748] developed an outline of dispensations that essentially paralleled that in the Scofield Bible, with the exception of the millennium. There is no indication, however, that either of these men believed that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church which according to Ryrie [page 39] is the basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist. The question is not whether there is a distinction between the nation Israel and the Church, there obviously is. The concern is the relationship between true or spiritual Israel, the believing remnant [Isaiah 10:20-23], and the Church.

The dispensational view of the return of Jesus Christ is currently one of the most popular views in the churches [and perhaps outside the churches]. This view has been popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible and such popular novels as Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth and, more recently, the Left Behind Series by Tim Lehaye and Jerry B. Jenkins. As indicated above, however, dispensationalism is a system of Bible interpretation of which eschatology is but a part.

There are a number of basic propositions that characterize the dispensational system of interpretation of Scripture, as follows:

1. Dispensational theology divides God’s dealings with humanity into a number of distinct ‘dispensations’. The New Scofield Reference Bible defines a dispensation as “a period of time during which man is tested in respect to his obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God” and distinguishes seven dispensations: Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, the Church, and the Kingdom. The word dispensation comes from the Greek word “oikonomia” which means the management of a household or of household affairs. The word does not occur in the Old Testament and occurs only seven times in the New Testament. On four occasions it is translated dispensation and on three occasions it is translated stewardship.

2. Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism] Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.”

3. Dispensationalism denies that the church is included in prophecy. Rather, the claim is made that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic kingdom for the Jews, that they rejected Him, and that He established the Church instead [Herman Hoyt, a dispensationalist, in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, pages 84-88]. The Church is often referred to as the ‘mystery parenthesis’ or “intercalculation?” form of the Kingdom; mystery in that there is no prophecy in the Old Testament regarding the Church and parenthesis in that God found it necessary to interrupt His program for the Jews because their leaders rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah and He was unable to establish the Messianic kingdom.

4. “The dispensationalist interprets the New Testament in light of the Old Testament.” [Herman Hoyt in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints, by Clouse, page 43] [Covenant theology interprets the Old Testament in light of the New Testament, which is consistent with the doctrine of progressive revelation, a doctrine that dispensationalists also profess to believe [Ryrie, Dispensationalism, page 31]. This emphasis of the Old Testament Scripture defines a very significant difference between the two theologies. There are numerous examples where New Testament writers give new meaning to Old Testament prophecy.]

5. Dispensationalism insists that Scripture is to be interpreted literally. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes [page 147], “Consistent literalism is at the heart of dispensationalism eschatology.” However, the understanding of just what the literal method of interpretation varies greatly among dispensationalists.

In discussing the dispensationalist insistence on the literal interpretation of Scripture, John P. Newport in The Lion and The Lamb, writes [page 96]: “This is particularly the case when interpreting biblical references to Israel. The term Israel must always refer to the actual nation Israel, ethnic Israel, the Israel that traces its physical descent back to Jacob. God called Jacob Israel. The term never refers to ‘spiritual Israel.’ All prophetic Scripture is to be treated in a similar manner. All prophecy must be fulfilled literally and in detail.”


Dispensational Eschatology

The major teachings of the dispensationalists on the return of Jesus Christ and the Book of Revelation are as follows:

1. The dispensational approach to eschatology [the doctrine of last things] is founded principally on interpretation of the Old Testament [Hermon Hoyt in The Millennium, Four Viewpoints by Clouse, page 67, quoting from John F. Walvoord, The Millennial Kingdom].

2. Dispensationalism teaches that the Church will be removed from the earth suddenly [by an ‘any-moment’ return of Jesus Christ] prior to the ‘so-called’ seven years of tribulation. It is also worth noting at this point that dispensationalist John F. Walvoord also writes in Major Bible Prophecies that the time lapse between “the Rapture” and the “second-coming” will be more than seven years [pages 283, 293], certainly not a literal interpretation of Daniel’s seventh week.

3. Therefore, the Dispensationalist insists that only the first three chapters of Revelation are applicable to the Church. Chapters 4-19 describe the events that occur during the seven years of tribulation and are thus of no concern to the Church but of primary concern to the nation Israel.

4. At the beginning of the seven year period the head of the revived Roman Empire will make a covenant with the Jews [based on the dispensational interpretation of Daniel 9:27]. In the midst of this period this leader will break the covenant and ban sacrifices in the rebuilt temple. Intense persecution of the Jews will follow. During this seven year period the majority of the Jewish people will embrace Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Also vast numbers of Gentiles will be saved under the preaching of 144,000 Jewish missionaries.

5. Dispensationalism teaches that at the end of the seven year tribulation period [seven years plus according to Walvoord] Jesus Christ will return to earth in power and great glory and reign for 1000 years with a ‘rod of iron’ from ‘David's throne’ in Jerusalem. During this period of time Satan will be bound and imprisoned in the bottomless pit. Those who enter the millennial kingdom will be believing Jews and Gentiles, all others will be put to death. Walvoord teaches in Major Bible Prophecies that David will reign as coregent with Jesus Christ in the millennial kingdom. He writes [page 393] “Though many have tried to explain away this passage [Ezekiel 37:24-25], it obviously requires the second coming of Christ, the establishment of David’s kingdom on earth, the resurrection of David, and David’s sharing the throne of Israel as coregent with Christ.”

6. Dispensationalism teaches that during this 1000 year period the Gentile nations will be subservient to Israel and that all people will come to Jerusalem to worship in the rebuilt temple through burnt offerings which are supposedly only ‘memorial in nature’. During this period people will be born and die, some saved and some not. It is not clear how people are to be saved during this ‘Jewish millennium’. Salvation by faith seems meaningless since Jesus Christ is physically occupying the throne of David. Also no explanation is ever given as to how mortal man can live in the presence of Jesus Christ who has returned to reign in the full glory of the Godhead [Exodus 33: 18-23; Revelation 19; Matthew 16: 27; Mark 8: 38; Luke 9: 26; Revelation 1: 7].

7. During this 1000 year period the Church will apparently be suspended above the earth in the New Jerusalem described in Revelation 21. Some contend that the tribulation Saints and the Old Testament Saints will be resurrected and join the Church in the New Jerusalem.

8. At the end of the millennium Satan will be released from the pit, he and his followers will suffer final defeat. Included among his followers will be people who are unbelievers? that are born during the millennium.

 

Whomever: " ... dispensationalist Criswell Study Bible.

Amillennialism

Those people who hold the amillennial doctrine believe in a general or universal resurrection ... "

The Criswell Study Bible is in error. A-mills are
an eclectic bunch. Probably only a minority of
a-mills beleive in a literal resurrection.

DeafPosttrib: "yes, all amills ... "

I feel an error coming up. There is little
can be said about a-mills other than that they
do not believe in a literal Millinnial reign of
Christ on a literal throne of David (in other
words - the definition of "a-millinnial").

DeafPosttrib: "yes, all amills(many who are not full preterists) believe we are always in tribulations since Early Church, will continue till the end of this age at Christ's coming."

As i said, an error ... Quite frankly Bro. DPT, you
are the only self-described a-mill who belives this
THAT I KNOW.

 

Ed,

Let me explain what amills really believe more clarify.

Whilst myself was premill before. I thought amills deny future literal 1000 years reign on earth with Christ at the second coming.

That time, I know nothing what amills really believe. Till I just study on amill doctrine only 3 years ago. Then, I finally understand clear what they really believe.

Amills inteprets Revelation 20:3-6 speak of the souls of saints who already died for Christ, now in the heaven reign with Christ for a length time since Calvary to now.

Also, I learned that amills BELIEVE when Christ shall come, we shall also reign with Christ on new earth forever and ever without end.

So, Amill is not a heretic teaching.

Both amills and premills are eager looking forward for Jesus come to earth, and we all shall reign with Christ - physical and literal on new earth.

I keep promise, I will make post on 'a thousand' with veres from the Bible, show verses tell which one is Literal or Figurative later this week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Thank you all: OldRegular, Ed and DeafPosttrib, I think I finally have it in my head. This has always confused me.

Thanks for all of the information.

 

dpt, amill is heretical teaching. Your inability to comprehend why doesn't nullify the fact.

 

Trailblazer, OldRegular, and I all are looking forward Jesus comes again, and shall reign on new earth forever and ever. Same as many premills are looking forward also.

Why would you think amill doctrine is a heretical teaching?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

It is a gnostic doctrine. Gnosticism is evil and sinful, like your amill theology.

 

DD,

amills always talking on Jesus Christ and Calvary lot. No, it is not a evil teaching.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Jehovah's witnesses, mormons, catholics, charismatics, etc., all do that too. They must not be heretics either.

Trailblazer, I actually am putting together many quotes on a word doc so that I can just post them whenever I need to.

The primary source is called:
A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs
David W. Bercot is the editor
He is an anglican priest, who would be amill, so he has no reason to "favor" premillenialism. He is just being honest with history. Check it out.

 

Do you know what gnosticiam is? Can you explain how amillennialism is gnostic? Point out one item in my post on amillennialism that is gnostic. If not then you owe everyone on this forum an apology. However, since you have posted nothing on this forum but insults since I have been on it I don't expect anything else from you.