A-millennialism still reigns supreme -

I can recommend sources if you like. I will not type out books because you are lazy.

Origen was a heretic on several accounts:
1. Denial of the bodily resurrection of Christ
2. Belief in universal reconciliation (including satan)
3. He was a gnostic that saw the material as evil and only the spiritual as really important.

If I need to further explain this stuff to you, then I am wasting my time.

This is why I quit posting on the other thread. I have given history, theology, scripture, quotes, facts, and you and your ilk just brush it aside looking for the next excuse. It gets boring.

 

I have admitted on other threads that historic premillennialism was one doctrine of the Early Church regarding the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. However, there is a world of difference between historic premillennialism and Darbyism, or dispensationalism, if you prefer.

Just give me one quote from Scripture that Jesus Christ will rule for 1000 years on this earth!!!!!!!!

 

Christ did not see fit to reveal the duration of his kingdom until he told John to pen Revelation. Good grief.

Please explain Matthew 19:28. I won't hold my breath.

 

DD,

Matt. 19:28 says nothing about 'a thousand years'.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DD, still no references! Please quote chapter and verse so that the rest of us can consider your claims; it's no use saying "Origen believed this and Irenaeus believed that" with no evidence being adduced to back up your assertions.

Hmmm...let's see who I believe: an Ecumenical Council which defined the doctrine of the Trinity and set the benchmark for Trinitarian orthodoxy over 1600 years ago...or, a mad Scottish teenager and an Irish lawyer-turned disillusioned clergyman from 170 years ago and a Baptist from a few days ago who can't even properly cite his sources!...No contest! Orthodoxy and tried and tested doctrines wini out over modernist heretical innovations every time!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Good!
That way you will read the verse.
You tend to just skip verses that talk
about the 1,000 years.

 

Matt Black: "Hmmm...let's see who I believe: an Ecumenical Council which defined the doctrine of the Trinity and set the benchmark for Trinitarian orthodoxy over 1600 years ago... "

Remind us with documented quotes what you are talking
about.

Matt Black: " ... or, a mad Scottish teenager and an Irish lawyer-turned disillusioned clergyman from 170 years ago ... "

Dictionary of Premillennial Theology (Kregel, 1996), page 244,
artile by Thomas D. Ice:

"Margaret Macdonald (1815-ca. 1840) is
alleged by Dave MacPherson, a postribulationial
polemicist, to be the originator of
pretribulationism as a result of a prophetic
revelation in the spring of 1830."

I graduated high school in 1961 and am 61 years old.
I've been active in southern Baptist circles since
my conversion in 1952. To me the whole history of
the post-tribulation movement is NEWS not HISTORY.
Yep, nearly the whole history of the post-trib
movement happened while i was obeying God's
command to:

Mark 13:32-33 (Geneva Bible):

But of that day and houre knoweth no man,
no, not the Angels which are in heauen, neither
the Sonne himselfe, but the Father.
33 Take heede: watch, and praie: for yee knowe
not when the time is.
Amen!

 

Amen to the last, too! That's why I asked earlier, about 100 pages ago, "Who cares?". Why have we wasted 9 pages on this topic. I do wonder why some evangelicals have this unhealthy obsession with eschatology; it reminds me in some respects of the medieval alchemists who were seeking to convert base metal into gold and delve into the 'hidden depths' of metaphysics.

As to the Council of Constantinople in 381, this affirmed the Trinitarian doctrine of the Council of Nicaea by condemning Arianism and Apollinarianism (1st Canon of Constantinople).

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

DD
In the initial quote from you, shown above, you state "I can give you quote after quote that Christ will reign for 1000 years on earth". Yet when asked [second sentence in my response above] you fail to give even one verse of Scripture to support your brag as demonstrated in your response shown above. You simply ask another question.

That is to be expected since there is not one verse of Scripture that supports a a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on this earth. There is abundant Scripture to support the eternal reign of Jesus Christ in the new heaven and new earth.

 

Well once again you are incorrect. In Isaih 9:6,7 we are told:

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

And again in Daniel 7:13-14:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

And again in Psalms 145:10-13:

10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

Breathe again DD!

In understanding Matthew 19:28 we need to look at it its context, at least to some extent:

Matthew 19:27-30
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Notice first that in answering Peter's question Jesus Christ does not limit His answer just to include the Apostles but to include everyone who is a "true believer".

One thing stands out in the above passage. Properly interpreted, including verse 28, it completely refutes the Darbyite doctrine of a Jewish millennium in which the Jews lord it over the all others. John Walvoord, former president and chancellor of Dallas Theological Seminary [the dominant Darbyite Seminary] writes in Major Bible Prophecies, page 391, states: "The place of Israel and their restoration in the millennial kingdom cannot be over emphasized, for Israel is a major part of God's purpose to subdue the whole earth. Accordingly, the return of Israel to the land, their spiritual restoration, and Christ's government over them are essential to God's purpose. As such, the children of Israel will be exalted above the Gentiles and given a special place as God's chosen people."

Now to verse 28. Admittedly this is a very difficult passage to understand fully, because Jesus Christ responds both in a direct manner and using hyperbole.

We look first at the direct response: in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.

First, what is mean't by the phrase "in the regeneration". If we look at the Greek word which is translated "regeneration" we see from Thayers Greek Lexicon:

1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
1a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death
1b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge
1c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught
1d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.

It is obvious that in using the phrase "in the regeneration" Jesus Christ is talking about the New Heavens and the New Earth [Revelation 21:1]. The Apostle Paul alludes to this renewal in Romans 8:18-23. Isaiah speaks opf the New Heavens and New Earth and the New Jerusalem [the Church] all the way back in Isaiah 65:17-19. No mention of the present earth in this passage but the New Heavens and New Earth. Also there is no mention of a 1000 year reign.

We look further at the statement: when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory and ask when shall this occur. We look to Scripture. In Matthew 25:31 we read: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.. In Matthew 24:29-31 we see the return of Jesus Christ in Power and Glory with His angels. Also in Revelation 19 we read of the return of Jesus Christ in Power and Glory with the his army of angels. These Scripture are speaking of the return of Jesus Christ prior to the Great White Throne Judgment. In Revelation 20:11-15 we are given a final picture of the Great White Throne Judgment with Jesus Christ on His throne.

Now I realize that the premillennialists will claim that these Scripture refer to the return of Jesus Christ to establish the millennial kingdom on the present earth. However, please note that the regeneration, the renewal of the heavens and earth, has already occurred. That is not premillennial doctrine. It certainly is not Darbyite Doctrine!

In the statement: ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel Jesus Christ is obviously using hyperbole. He is speaking to the Church. The only way the Church judges Israel, or for that matter the unbelievers among the Gentiles, is that their unbelief stands in stark contrast to the faith of the "true believers". We see this in the words of Jesus Christ in John 3:17-21.

 

Oldreg, when I said I could reproduce quotes about a 1000 year reign, I was talking about the Fathers.

Further, I know Christ's kingdom is eternal. That doesn't preclude the first 1,000 years of that reign on the earth to be marked off prior to the rest of the time.

When you say there are no scriptures supporting the idea of a 1,000 year reign on earth, I know you are simply deceiving yourself.

Again, in Revelation 5:10, saints already in heaven are looking forward to reigning upon the earth. Get that? Reigning upon the earth. Get that? Reigning upon the earth.

I only repeat myself becuase amills lack good thinking skills. Hopefully repitition will aid them.

Then, right after John mentions the return of Christ, he talks about him reigning with saints for how long? That is right, a 1,000 years.

As for Matthew 19:28, that has to be the absolute worst job I have ever seen. That was almost funny, if it wasn't so tragic that you would actually come up with that stuff.

It isn't a difficult passage unless one is amill and realizes how that one text smacks your system around.

Btw, I deny any Jewish priority in the millenium. There, what does that do for you? I am not alone on the issue. Many premills deny jewish priority. So, you can stop with that insane excuse.

Christ made the issue quite plain. Those who have chosen Christ over everything else in the world will be rewarded in the regeneration, when Christ rules from his throne. Funny how you assign hyperbole to something that gives no indication of hyperbole.

Sigh, such is the need for all who are gullible enough to believe amillenialism. It is so sad. I hope you don't teach anywhere, for that would be making others to be reckless with the word as well.

 

Trail, I am about to hit the road on business. I will try to get you the info by the end of the day. My primary source is at home. Btw, cowering before amills is like a Destroyer cowering before a row boat. Cheers.

 

DD: may it be well with you as you perform
your dutiful functions.

Daniel David: "Btw, cowering before amills is like a Destroyer cowering before a row boat. Cheers."

tee hee. Once in a wargame i moved my
Battleship Group up to the land against
some farmers with pitchforks. The farmers
won But 99.9% of the time, it is the
other way around.

I still conceive a-mill preterist as we
are all in eternal Hell now. And some days
they almost have me convinced.
OTOH a-mill historists can even belive in
the literal Second coming of Jesus
(preterists think He done alrady come).

 

Goliath, wasn't he the Bible
anti-hero that got stoned at a rock concert?
Yes he was. Remember who was playing that
day? It was David and the Five Stones

 

Daniel David:

I can't read your mind, however, I should have guessed what you meant since you said in an earlier post: "I can trace my beliefs to the disciples of John." In response I stated that I trace my beliefs back to Jesus Christ. Show me some Scripture that talks about a 1000 year reign on this earth.

Since thare is no time in eternity to speak of 1000 years is meaningless!

Well Daniel David if I am "deceiving myself" then you should have an obligation to enlighten me. You have been prolific in your quotes or remarks from the Early Church Fathers why not present some from the Bible?

They will be reigning on the New Earth in the regeneration. You really don't need to holler Daniel David.

You only repeat yourself because you have nothing else to say. Furthermore, you always repeat yourself like a spoiled child.

Daniel David, please read the passage from Revelation 20 in proper context.

When was Satan bound? Scripture tells us that He was bound, that is limited in power, through the ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as shown in the following paragraphs.

After Jesus Christ had healed a man who was possessed by a demon [Matthew 12:22-29] He was accused by the Pharisees of casting out demons through the power of Beelzebub. Jesus responds that if Satan casts out demons he is at war with himself and cannot survive. He concludes as follows:

Matthew 12:29, KJV
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus notes that in order for a person to enter a strong mans house and spoil his goods [cast out demons] he must first bind the strong man [Satan].

A second example of the limitations placed on the power of Satan is recorded in the Gospel of Luke. Seventy disciples had been sent out by twos [Luke 10:1] to announce the Kingdom of God [Luke 10:9]. The seventy returned proclaiming [Luke 10:17]: Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. The reply of Jesus Christ [Luke 10:18]: I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Demons were subject to the disciples through the name of Jesus Christ. The reply of Jesus need not be taken literally. The victory of the disciples over demons was a prelude to the victory of Jesus Christ over Satan symbolically attributed to Michael and his angels {Revelation 12:7-11].

After the triumphal entry of Jesus Christ into Jerusalem while He was teaching of His coming death the audible voice of God the Father was heard from heaven [John 12:28]. Jesus then remarks:

John 12:30-32, KJV
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Jesus is declaring that through His death and resurrection Satan will be judged and cast out as prince of this world. He further declares that through His death and resurrection all mankind, not just Jews, would be drawn to Him. Again we see that Satan’s power to deceive mankind [the nations] is limited. Further evidence of the limitations on Satan’s power is shown in the command of Jesus Christ to the Apostles after His resurrection:

Matthew 28:19,20, KJV
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

The preaching of the Gospel to the nations means that Satan is no longer given free reign to deceive them. Satan is unable to stop the spread of the Gospel.

The Apostle Paul writes in the letter to the Hebrews:

Hebrews 2:14, KJV
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus Christ triumphed over Satan in His life and in His death because the grave could not hold Him [Acts 2:23, 24]. The above passages speak of the defeat of Satan as an accomplished fact, which it is. However, his ultimate destruction awaits the return of Jesus Christ.

In order to understand what the passage Revelation 20:1-10 is telling us we must recogonize it as a recapitulation of events that occur between the two conings of jesus Christ. We see a similar literary style in Revelation 12:1-6 where we see a recapitulation of the birth of Jesus Christ and Satans attempts to destroy Him.

That being said we only need to examine Revelation 20:4.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Please notice that in this passage of Scripture the Apostle John sees souls, the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Note that he does not see bodies but souls. Should one ask how John sees souls, recall that this is a vision, John sees what God chooses. Now it is true that in Scripture the word soul is often used to refer to living people, for example: in Acts 2:41 three thousand souls were added to the church, in Acts 27:37 there were three hundred and seventy six souls on the ship carrying Paul to Rome. In these passages souls is used as a figure on speech. However the context in Revelation 20:4 is different in that the word souls is not used as a figure of speech but refers to distinct entities apart from their associated physical bodies, i.e., the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. The souls that John sees are of those of deceased Saints. In Revelation 6:9-11 the Apostle John also writes of the souls of deceased believers as distinct entities apart from their associated physical bodies.

The 1000 years simply represents the time between the two comings of Jesus Christ

Well, Surprise, Surprise. You harped on this passage so long that I thought you would have an explanation [I won't call it exegesis] already prepared to refute any response but all you can do is criticize, not one word to refute anything I said. Actually Daniel David I am not surprised, I got just what I expected. I can't recall that you have posted one passage of Scripture to support your beliefs.

If it is not difficult then present your explanation for others to read!!!!

You may deny it but that is Darbyite doctrine. If you are going to buy into his false teachings you at least try to understand what they are. It is certain you do not understand Scripture.

If you will read my post you will see that I did not assign hyperbole to Jesus Christ's remarks about the regeneration but made it quite clear that He is talking about the renewal of the heavens and the earth as also indicated by Paul and Isaiah. The hyperbole relates to the 12 apostles ruling over the 12 tribes of Israel.

Daniel David, I feel sorry for you. Your insulting remarks oscillate between that of a spoiled child and a bitter old man. I have only been on this forum for about 3 months. In all that time I don't recall reading one post from you that does not contain an insulting derogatory remark. Also I have noticed that they are essentally void of any Scripture to support your supposed beliefs.

Are you on this forum to discuss Scripture or to insult those who are?