-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
A most unfortunate textual variant
- Thread starter stilllearning
- Start date
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
So disciples must be perfect? Disciples never need discipline?
I sure am glad that my Master doesn't kick me out of class every time I am a little unruly. As His disciple He disciplines me and brings me back into line. That is what teachers do.
Last edited by a moderator:
stilllearning
Active Member
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Wow - could you give me an example of a perfect disciple?
Also, it is impossible to truly discipline someone who is not a disciple.
franklinmonroe
Active Member
This verse is often misinterpretated and misapplied. The 'perfection' spoken of here is more like 'completeness' and in the context is specifically about the ability to love equally.
Please note in your KJV that every Christian is a disciple:
"And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." (Acts 11:26)
The common usage of the word "disciple" especially in the book of Acts is of a believer in Christ. And matheteuo does not mean works salvation.
Note also in your KJV that if "teach" in Matt. 28:18 does not mean "win to Christ," then why does the Bible repeat itself in the passage, saying, "teaching them"? We are to teach them the Gospel, thus winning them to Christ, then teach them what Christ taught about how to live.
The majority of IFBs down through the years have interpreted "teach all nations" to mean "win souls in all nations." Note John R. Rice's commentary on Matthew here: "The word 'teach' in verse 19 is literally 'to make disciples,' to get people saved" (The King of the Jews, p. 502).
Actually, I disagree. I believe that God did mean "perfect" here. Why? If He had given us a standard of less than perfection for our Christian lives (80%? 90%?), someone might think they had actually arrived and become spiritually proud.
Brother, Martha was indeed a disciple. That's why she was teachable.
By your definition of disciple - "one who makes the right choice and is perfect as Father is perfect" - then NONE of the the 12 disciples were really disciples at all. And that isn't what the King James Bible says at all.
In the King James Version, they are first called disciples before Jesus begins the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5. They made many wrong choices after that. Some BIG ones. And they displayed their imperfections over and over.
In Matthew 8, they are called disciples, yet Jesus had to admonish them for their lack of faith in the ship while the storm rages. And then, instead of thanking Jesus, the Bible says that a calm came and then it used the word "but" implying that the disciples were not calm in their hearts and all they would do was question who He was. They were still afraid even though he calmed the storm. Their "faith" was in the elements and the natural - not the supernatural.
They are called disciples in Matthew 14 where they are upon the storm sea yet again and when they saw Jesus walking on the water, they did not have enough spiritual marrow in their bones to even remember that He was in control the first time and was going to be in control again. Even Peter - who was the only one man enough to get out of the boat and try to get to Jesus even failed to have even enough faith to accomplish that.
They are called disciples in Matthew 15 when they come to Jesus and rebuke Him for "offending" the Pharisees. Jesus tells them to not to worry about that because the Pharisees were just the blind leading the blind. At that time the disciples had more faith in the political power of the Pharisees than they did in the words of Christ.
They are called disciples in Matthew 18 when they come to Jesus and want to know which of them will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus takes a little child and sets him in the middle of the disciples and explains the "child-like" nature of faith and how when one receives a little child (or someone coming in child-like faith) they are receiving Christ. In the very next chapter, Matthew 19, some indeed come with child-like faith and their own literal children for Jesus to bless and the disciples rebuke those families and children. That's what I call NOT paying attention to the master.
They were called disciples in Matthew 26 when all Jesus asked was for some of them to stay awake with Him while he prayed. They couldn't even stay awake to comfort a Friend in emotional distress. Jesus rebukes them for it - especially Peter.
Also in Matthew 26, they were called disciples when they "forsook Jesus and fled".
Peter is called a disciple in Mark 8 when Peter interrupts Jesus, rebukes Him, and basically tells Him that He is wrong about his future death. Jesus rebukes Peter. "But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, 'Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.'"
They were called disciples in Luke 9 when James and John wanted to "called down fire to come down out of heaven" and to consume the Samaritans. Jesus heavily rebuked them and said. "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." "You don't know what kind of spirit you have". That's a pretty powerful rebuke.
Finally, Peter had been called a disciple many times over when he made the "choice" to curse and deny that he even knew Jesus. That's a pretty bad "choice" wouldn't you say.
I think you need to rethink "disciple" and "perfect".
Last edited:
stilllearning
Active Member
Hello John, and thank you very much for weighing in on this question.
And also....thank you for your civil response.
Over the years, I have considered Acts 11:26, in my development of this doctrine(conditional discipleship), and here is the entire verse........
“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
As you pointed out, this verse says......“And the disciples were called Christians...”
Well what was meant, by those calling the disciples in Antioch “Christians” in the first place...?
Wasn’t it done, in a derogatory way? “You Christians(little Christs)”
That is, “disciples”, were being called Christians, because those believers who were “disciples”, were acting just like Christ.
This is the result, of sitting at Jesus’ feet(on a daily basis), and allowing Him to daily make changes in your life. These changes, effect the way you conduct yourself.
For instance, I could not say, that I have been treated in a “Christlike” way, here on the BB.
If the “Believers” in Antioch, had spoken to their neighbors like the way I have been spoken to, they certainly would not have been called “little Christs”.
And as for my reference to Matthew 5:48, it was in response to the question.....
“So disciples must be perfect?”
--------------------
The fact is(and has always been), that not every “Christian”, is going to be living a life of total commitment to Christ; Therefore not every Christian should be called a “disciple”.
Even in Antioch, we have a record of at least one Christian, who wasn’t perfect.......
Acts 8:13
“Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.”
And we know that Simon was indeed a believer, because of how he reacted to correction........
Acts 8:22-24
V.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
V.23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and [in] the bond of iniquity.
V.24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
The Bible teaches us, that you can tell a lot about a “professing Christian”, by how they react to correction.
------------------
John, “please” take the time to respond to this response and lets “hash this out”, once and for all......
Because if I am wrong about “conditional discipleship”, I want to be proven wrong by Scripture, so that I can repent.
And also....thank you for your civil response.
Over the years, I have considered Acts 11:26, in my development of this doctrine(conditional discipleship), and here is the entire verse........
“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
As you pointed out, this verse says......“And the disciples were called Christians...”
Well what was meant, by those calling the disciples in Antioch “Christians” in the first place...?
Wasn’t it done, in a derogatory way? “You Christians(little Christs)”
That is, “disciples”, were being called Christians, because those believers who were “disciples”, were acting just like Christ.
This is the result, of sitting at Jesus’ feet(on a daily basis), and allowing Him to daily make changes in your life. These changes, effect the way you conduct yourself.
For instance, I could not say, that I have been treated in a “Christlike” way, here on the BB.
If the “Believers” in Antioch, had spoken to their neighbors like the way I have been spoken to, they certainly would not have been called “little Christs”.
And as for my reference to Matthew 5:48, it was in response to the question.....
“So disciples must be perfect?”
--------------------
The fact is(and has always been), that not every “Christian”, is going to be living a life of total commitment to Christ; Therefore not every Christian should be called a “disciple”.
Even in Antioch, we have a record of at least one Christian, who wasn’t perfect.......
Acts 8:13
“Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.”
And we know that Simon was indeed a believer, because of how he reacted to correction........
Acts 8:22-24
V.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
V.23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and [in] the bond of iniquity.
V.24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
The Bible teaches us, that you can tell a lot about a “professing Christian”, by how they react to correction.
------------------
John, “please” take the time to respond to this response and lets “hash this out”, once and for all......
Because if I am wrong about “conditional discipleship”, I want to be proven wrong by Scripture, so that I can repent.
Last edited by a moderator:
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Was Peter a disciple when he denied His Master or was he kicked out of the Master's school because he as not perfect?
Last edited by a moderator:
franklinmonroe
Active Member
Are suggesting that God would demand an unattainable standard from man? (for certainly no human could obtain it)
Did He tell the woman "Go and sin no more"?
Exactly, and that's something God often does, such as "In everything give thanks," and "Pray without ceasing."
I know this is sometimes said, but I see nothing in the text to prove this.
In Acts 26:28 it is clear that the term "Christian" meant simply a believer in Christ. "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."
Check the usage of "disciple" throughout Acts. It occurs in 30 separate verses, and in almost all of these cases it simply refers to Christians: Peter speaking to the 120 disciples in 1:15; the believers in Jerusalem three times in ch. 6; Saul persecuting believers in 9:1; various believers in ch. 9 (6 times), etc. etc. In no verse in Acts does it distinguish between believers who are and are not disciples.
Consider Acts 14:22, for example: "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith." Does this mean that Paul did not exhort Christians who were not disciples, that he distinguished between disciples an non-disciple believers? Of course not! In this passage, as in all of Acts, believer and disciple are synonyms.
franklinmonroe
Active Member
How can she be held accountable for failing where she could not possibly succeed?
I expect my children to obey me but I know that through their entire childhood, there will be times that they will not. Does that mean that I cannot hold them accountable? Certainly not because they still made a choice - sin or no sin. It's the same with us. There are still consequences to our sin because we could choose to not do it.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
??? Maybe it's a translation problem (between American English and the English we use here
), but here, those churches that major on God's free grace to sinners are the least likely to have any truck with easy-believism!stilllearning
Active Member
The first step to worldliness and ungodliness, is saying.....“Nobody can be perfect”!
It’s true that we can’t be perfect this side of heaven(1John 1:8), but it’s dangerous to ever start expecting “less” in ourselves!
I think the first step in being able to press on is to say "Nobody can be perfect". You see, I know a number of people who stopped going to church and were horribly discouraged because they still would sin. Not horrible sins but enough that the others in church condemned them and when they later found out that they could never be perfect, it was a release for them to begin to live their life anew for God. While we can't be perfect, God still wants us to work towards that goal yet knows that we'll fail and He's prepared for that end. Praise God that He challenges me to be better - but will not turn me away when I fail.