A Mystery To Me...

Grace through Faith

We are saved by grace through faith, we enter grace through faith.

Selah

 

Ok, I thought it was just me. There are anti-calvinists out there.

 

Scripture

When we hear that our sanctification is secure becaue it rests upon the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.We just want to follow and worship Christ, but unfortantly when they hear that have to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, or that if we disown Jesus He will disown us or that if we do not continue in His kindnes we will be cut out just like the natural branches were, they just want to walk away, and believe only what they want to believe in

 

TC,

It's clear from Scripture that God cannot sin and repudiates sin.

This makes for an interesting question...

Can it be said that God is incapable of something?

My own bias, which recognizably reflects some nominalist tendencies, would be to say that God's potential is unlimited. He does NOT sin - but not because He "cannot". We know sin as something bad. By what account is sine bad? I would argue that the definition of righteousness is that which is in accord with God's being. Thus that which is sin is not sin because some exterior standard says so - but rather because it is not in keeping with God's nature. The definition of sin is subordinate to God's nature - not the other way around.

My 2 cents worth...

 

Sorry about being the late comer here, TC. I'm going to comment on yours first since I haven't even read the thread as of yet

I do have a question though first:
Where does scripture say that sanctification is considered a mystery?
I just looked up every time the word mystery is used and have not found where the term mystery every discribes sanctification.
I have found the mystery of:
1. The Kingdom - Mar 4:11
2. The Grafting in - Rom 11:25
3. The Gospel - Rom 16:25
4. The Resurrection - 1 Cor 15:51
5. His Will - Eph 1:9
6. The Dispensation of Grace - Eph 3:3
7. Christ - Eph 3:4
8. The Joining us into Christ Eph 5:32
9. God, and the Father and of Christ - Col 2:2
10. Iniquity - 2 Thes 2:7 - Is This What You are Refering To -
11. The Faith - 1 Tim 3:9
12. The Seven Stars - Rev 1:20
13 The Woman - Rev 17:7

There are others but they 'appear' to speak concerning these listed above.
But I still don't see God revealing there is a mystery concerning 'sanctification', and He gave quite a list of what He termed a mystery.

Personally, I don't see what some of you can't grasp regarding the issue.
Editted In >>> Let us for the sake of unity (on the same page) say the term 'regenerated' is talking about those who have been saved already through faith.
Did God gives us the new man (regenerated man) to now become an automatron and follow out the directives of God without thought or desire? This isn't a derogitive but a point I want to make. Answer: Of course not - no one says this. But 'will' is a part of God's plan and sanctification of man growth in and towards Christ-likeness.

Yet man is resposible and that is will of God regarding the relationship man is to have with God. If you deny the will within man then you have a 'mystery'. However, God IS at work within the regenerated man to conform him into the image of His Son though not through over powering but by loving admonition toward the man as a Father to a son. Just as I am at work in my childrens lives to conform them into that which be represents us as a family. (it is the whole chastening arguement).

Another thing, is why must a person be Calvinist to appreciate this 'mystery'?

 

My bad, sorry. That is what through me somewhat.

 

God does not have free-will, He has the the freedom TO will.

Is this not true?

I agree that many need to understand and define their usage of 'free-will'. I personally don't like the term because for those who have even a basic grasp of the theological differences, the term free-will goes back to the Libertarian view (Pelagin) of which I vehemently deny (and most everyone I know does to).

 

I hope so because the one thing I cannot bear is the thought of ANYONE presuming they are saved without "doing" something like praying the sinner's prayer. You know, anything else I could let slide because all the rest is just sanctification "icing on the cake" of justification. But this notion that to believe enough to act is somehow "works" or "merit" or "boasting" to me is like Pharisees whom Jesus rebuked in Mt 23:13, 15 -- shutting up the kingdom to men ... neither going in yourselves nor letting those that are entering to go in. (Not talkin' about YOU in particular, just the theology, TC. Is it not obvious that if you are going to discourage people from turning to Christ, they will just go on to your next "requirement," "holy living"/Lordship Salvation/proof-works??

I admit that, like Paul, my bark (at a distance) is worse than my bite (if I was with you). And especially because my objection is not with you as a Christian (neither my Catholic ranting with any particular Catholic) but with your shepherds.

TC -- can I just tell you that it is pretty obvious that Christ/God was tempted and could have sinned and you believe me? No, you have this "Calvinist ideal" to protect that makes Christ NOT like men --- that makes Him "all God and no man," so to speak. So I speak as to get your attention. That was the best I could do from my miniscule "sarcasm toolbox." :laugh:

skypair

 

1. I think you would agree that it is the "character" of God that He cannot sin, right? But character is defined by discipline, TC. IOW, nature would be something "programmed" like instinct -- character would be established by behavior regarding numerous "tests." I believe this same error occurs in Calvin's description of "sin nature." Man's character is to sin -- sinner. It is established from a foundation of nature (instincts) and circumstances such that the "soul that sinneth surely dies" toward God and life.

2. Yes, but man did not lose sight of "good" by the fall; he merely learned also the "bad."

3. Absolutely! A) Because there will be no temptation and B) because we would know better than to choose things like "pride" anyway having been already so "tested." Although C) it also appears that there will be 12 manner of fruit for the healing of the nations there, Rev 22:2. IOW, if Adam could have eaten therefrom, he would have had eternal life though he had sinned, right?

4. He "serves sin," yes. It is the "total" aspect of Calvin's depravity and Luther's bondage that doesn't ring true, TC. If everyone is demon possessed, I could agree. Short of that (and even those possessed can be retrieved somehow by the Spirit), men serve "good" on a relatively frequent basis as well.

5. Which, of course, is where Calvin takes any choice in the matter of salvation out of men's hands such that the "uncommitted"/unjustified move on into "sanctification mode" presuming they are saved/"elect" to it.

skypair

 

Same "freedom of will" as the One in Whose image he was made.

But -- talk about one "unsanctified of the mind of God," look at Eve!

Don't you see (you call it a "mystery") that men with the indwelling Spirit still sin because of incomplete sanctification? Like I've said before, if we knew what God knows about sin, we wouldn't desire to sin. Eve knew next to nothing about "evil"/sin, right? That is the object of sanctification -- that we should have the mind of Christ and eventually, of God!

But we still can't have any of that until we are justified first -- enter into the new covenant/relationship with God!

skypair

 

Where's the icon for the smiley guy's jaw hitting the ground, then covering his mouth in astonishment. :laugh:

I must be a real thorn in your flesh then. lol I do not presume I am saved without me "doing" something like praying the sinner's prayer, I know I am.

My salvation was secured by God the Father's choice of me, before time began, who gave me to His Son Jesus Christ, who Redeemed me with His precious blood, yet slain before the foundation of the world, and the Holy Spirit in time irresistablly called and drew me, accomplishing the will of God. Some call that Calvinsim. I call it the doctrine of God.