A Mystery To Me...

[psalms109:31]

Grace through Faith

We are saved by grace through faith, we enter grace through faith.

Selah

 

[TCGreek]

You got it wrong, TC. God could have sinned very easily in Christ's flesh -- but He chose not to. Do you not believe the verse that says "He was tempted in all ways like unto us yet siined not?" Such a statement would presume that God could choose to sin, especially in the body of Christ, but did not.

Your comments go a long way toward explaining how you are "bewitched" with Calvinism, though. Even the "low hanging fruit" of scripture and logic are still "out of reach" to you.

skypair

1. Skypair, your anti-Calvinism is legendary on BB.

2. I have an Arminian pastor friend and he is not as half Anti-Calvinistic as you are.

3. Is this the best that you can do?: "Your comments go a long way toward explaining how you are "bewitched" with Calvinism, though. Even the "low hanging fruit" of scripture and logic are still "out of reach" to you."

 

[TCGreek]

TC, it is a mystery. Me and my brother were talking about this the other day, and we came to the conclusion that Christians are sanctified by how much exposure they have to the truth, i.e. preaching and teaching. I was looking at the people in my church and people who seem to be spiritually stagnant. Then I seen my friend Derek and my brother Matt, both who have been saved for about a year and are growing leaps and bounds.

Matt and Derek both listen to great teachers and preachers, while the majority of other people at my church only listen to our Pastors sermons. Matt has listened to MacArthur, Paul Washer, Sproul, and others, and Derek has listened to Ray Comfort and has been devouring Spurgeon's sermons. As they hear the Word preached and taught, it is amazing to see how it molds them.

Eph 4:11 11And He (A)gave (B)some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as (C)evangelists, and some as pastors and (D)teachers, 12(E)for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of (F)the body of Christ;

Yes, that's in sync with Jesus' words in John 17:17.

 

[TCGreek]

Amen brother. I have found great comfort in the Scriptures that give us our Lord's prayer for His people. In the Gospel of John, chapter 17, we are granted by the mercy and grace of God the high priestly prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ. We know we have such an Advocate in our Lord Jesus Christ who makes intercession for His people. 1 John 2:1; Isa 53:12; Rom 8:34.

Is there any prayer that our Lord Jesus Christ would ask of the Father and it be denied Him? God forbid. And He prays for those whom the Father has given Him. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." John 17:9 This he is speaking particularly of the Apostles, yet it is not the only people Jesus is praying for.

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word." John 17:20.

Our Lord Jesus, our great High Priest, interecedes for all believers. And He asks the Father to sanctify them. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." v.17

Hallelujah. My eternal life is secure because it rests upon the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. v.2 My sanctification is secure becaue it rests upon the work of the Lord Jesus Christ v.17 And my glorification is secure because it rests upon the work of Lord Jesus Christ, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." v.24.

Grace, Grace! From first to last! What comfort the interecession of our Lord brings to weary saints!!!

Soli Deo Gloria,
RB

In biblical analogy, we ough to take this Ch.17 and eat it and find it sweet in our bellies.

 

[TCGreek]

1. Heb 4:14-15 takes us into the whole debate about the peccability and impeccability of the nature of Christ in respect to sin.

2. I submit that this is part of the God-man mystery of the Incarnation of God.

3. It's clear from Scripture that God cannot sin and repudiates sin (Hab.1:13; Titus 1:2).

 

[TCGreek]

1. The nature of God is that he cannot choose evil, but can only choose the good.

2. He created man to choose either the good or the bad.

3. In the New Order of things, there's going to be no sin nor the ability to sin, yet man would have free will, but only to choose the good like God.

4. So the difference is the fall of man, that rendered the will of man enslaved to sin, from which he must be freed.

5. Only God can free the bondaged will of man (Rom 3-5; Eph 2; John 6:44, 45, 65).

 

[ReformedBaptist]

1. Skypair, your anti-Calvinism is legendary on BB.

2. I have an Arminian pastor friend and he is not as half Anti-Calvinistic as you are.

3. Is this the best that you can do?: "Your comments go a long way toward explaining how you are "bewitched" with Calvinism, though. Even the "low hanging fruit" of scripture and logic are still "out of reach" to you."

Ok, I thought it was just me. There are anti-calvinists out there.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

When we hear that our sanctification is secure becaue it rests upon the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.We just want to follow and worship Christ, but unfortantly when they hear that have to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, or that if we disown Jesus He will disown us or that if we do not continue in His kindnes we will be cut out just like the natural branches were, they just want to walk away, and believe only what they want to believe in

 

[Charles Meadows]

TC,

It's clear from Scripture that God cannot sin and repudiates sin.

This makes for an interesting question...

Can it be said that God is incapable of something?

My own bias, which recognizably reflects some nominalist tendencies, would be to say that God's potential is unlimited. He does NOT sin - but not because He "cannot". We know sin as something bad. By what account is sine bad? I would argue that the definition of righteousness is that which is in accord with God's being. Thus that which is sin is not sin because some exterior standard says so - but rather because it is not in keeping with God's nature. The definition of sin is subordinate to God's nature - not the other way around.

My 2 cents worth...

 

[TCGreek]

I would argue that the definition of righteousness is that which is in accord with God's being. Thus that which is sin is not sin because some exterior standard says so - but rather because it is not in keeping with God's nature. The definition of sin is subordinate to God's nature - not the other way around.

My 2 cents worth...

1. You would find that I'm in agreement. That is why sin is falling short of the glory of God (Rom.3:23).

2. But it is equally correct to say like the Hebrew writer that it is impossible for God to lie (6:18), precisely because sinning is foreign to the absolute holiness of God's nature.

 

[Allan]

1. Today I was speaking to a fellow SBC pastor about the mystery of sanctification.

2. To appreciate this mystery of sanctification, you must be a Calvinist:

a. How is it that even after we have been regenerated and given a new nature to desire God, we sin against God, even to the point of falling away for a season?

b. How is it that Paul says that it is God who is at work in us to work and to do according to God's good pleasure (Phil.2:13) and yet believers sin, even to the point of falling away for a season?

3. And Why, at the same time, some believers who have the same Spirit of God in them, never so sin as to fall away for a season?

4. After much discussion, we both concluded that these scenarios all point to the Mystery of Sanctification.

Sorry about being the late comer here, TC. I'm going to comment on yours first since I haven't even read the thread as of yet

I do have a question though first:
Where does scripture say that sanctification is considered a mystery?
I just looked up every time the word mystery is used and have not found where the term mystery every discribes sanctification.
I have found the mystery of:
1. The Kingdom - Mar 4:11
2. The Grafting in - Rom 11:25
3. The Gospel - Rom 16:25
4. The Resurrection - 1 Cor 15:51
5. His Will - Eph 1:9
6. The Dispensation of Grace - Eph 3:3
7. Christ - Eph 3:4
8. The Joining us into Christ Eph 5:32
9. God, and the Father and of Christ - Col 2:2
10. Iniquity - 2 Thes 2:7 - Is This What You are Refering To -
11. The Faith - 1 Tim 3:9
12. The Seven Stars - Rev 1:20
13 The Woman - Rev 17:7

There are others but they 'appear' to speak concerning these listed above.
But I still don't see God revealing there is a mystery concerning 'sanctification', and He gave quite a list of what He termed a mystery.

Personally, I don't see what some of you can't grasp regarding the issue.
Editted In >>> Let us for the sake of unity (on the same page) say the term 'regenerated' is talking about those who have been saved already through faith.
Did God gives us the new man (regenerated man) to now become an automatron and follow out the directives of God without thought or desire? This isn't a derogitive but a point I want to make. Answer: Of course not - no one says this. But 'will' is a part of God's plan and sanctification of man growth in and towards Christ-likeness.

Yet man is resposible and that is will of God regarding the relationship man is to have with God. If you deny the will within man then you have a 'mystery'. However, God IS at work within the regenerated man to conform him into the image of His Son though not through over powering but by loving admonition toward the man as a Father to a son. Just as I am at work in my childrens lives to conform them into that which be represents us as a family. (it is the whole chastening arguement).

Another thing, is why must a person be Calvinist to appreciate this 'mystery'?

 

[TCGreek]

Sorry about being the late comer here, TC. I'm going to comment on yours first since I haven't even read the thread as of yet

I do have a question though first:
Where does scripture say that sanctification is considered a mystery?
I just looked up every time the word mystery is used and have not found where the term mystery every discribes sanctification.
I have found the mystery of:
1. The Kingdom - Mar 4:11
2. The Grafting in - Rom 11:25
3. The Gospel - Rom 16:25
4. The Resurrection - 1 Cor 15:51
5. His Will - Eph 1:9
6. The Dispensation of Grace - Eph 3:3
7. Christ - Eph 3:4
8. The Joining us into Christ Eph 5:32
9. God, and the Father and of Christ - Col 2:2
10. Iniquity - 2 Thes 2:7 - Is This What You are Refering To -
11. The Faith - 1 Tim 3:9
12. The Seven Stars - Rev 1:20
13 The Woman - Rev 17:7

There are others but they 'appear' to speak concerning these listed above.
But I still don't see God revealing there is a mystery concerning 'sanctification', and He gave quite a list of what He termed a mystery.

Personally, I don't see what some of you can't grasp regarding the issue.
Editted In >>> Let us for the sake of unity (on the same page) say the term 'regenerated' is talking about those who have been saved already through faith.
Did God gives us the new man (regenerated man) to now become an automatron and follow out the directives of God without thought or desire? This isn't a derogitive but a point I want to make. Answer: Of course not - no one says this. But 'will' is a part of God's plan and sanctification of man growth in and towards Christ-likeness.

Yet man is resposible and that is will of God regarding the relationship man is to have with God. If you deny the will within man then you have a 'mystery'. God IS at work within man to conform him into the image of His Son but not through over powering but loving admonition as a Father to a son.

Another thing, is why must a person be Calvinist to appreciate this 'mystery'?

Hi Allan,

At times in life, we're all late comers.

1. Nowhere have I said that Scripture says Sanctification is a mystery. I hope you understand that.

2. Secondly, I was speaking from experience and how it all relates to the text of Scripture.

3. And from my observation of the process of sanctification in real life, as I've outlined in my first post, I see an element of mystery.

4. But I've never said that Scripture refers to sanctification as a mystery. I hope that helped to clarify things.

 

[Allan]

Hi Allan,

At times in life, we're all late comers.

1. Nowhere have I said that Scripture says Sanctification is a mystery. I hope you understand that.

2. Secondly, I was speaking from experience and how it all relates to the text of Scripture.

3. And from my observation of the process of sanctification in real life, as I've outlined in my first post, I see an element of mystery.

4. But I've never said that Scripture refers to sanctification as a mystery. I hope that helped to clarify things.

My bad, sorry. That is what through me somewhat.

 

[TCGreek]

My bad, sorry. That is what through me somewhat.

No probs. I too misread somethings.

 

[Allan]

1. God cannot choose to sin, yet He is the epitome of free will.

2. God can only make one choice and that is to choose the good, yet He is the epitome of free will.

3. I propose that we reconsider what we commonly call "free will."

God does not have free-will, He has the the freedom TO will.

Is this not true?

I agree that many need to understand and define their usage of 'free-will'. I personally don't like the term because for those who have even a basic grasp of the theological differences, the term free-will goes back to the Libertarian view (Pelagin) of which I vehemently deny (and most everyone I know does to).

 

[TCGreek]

God does not have free-will, He has the the freedom TO will.

Is this not true?

I agree that many need to understand and define their usage of 'free-will'. I personally don't like the term because for those who have even a basic grasp of the theological differences, the term free-will goes back to the Libertarian view (Pelagin) of which I vehemently deny (and most everyone I know does to).

If we say God has the freedom to will, What of man? What did man have before the Fall and after the Fall?

 

[skypair]

1. Skypair, your anti-Calvinism is legendary on BB.

I hope so because the one thing I cannot bear is the thought of ANYONE presuming they are saved without "doing" something like praying the sinner's prayer. You know, anything else I could let slide because all the rest is just sanctification "icing on the cake" of justification. But this notion that to believe enough to act is somehow "works" or "merit" or "boasting" to me is like Pharisees whom Jesus rebuked in Mt 23:13, 15 -- shutting up the kingdom to men ... neither going in yourselves nor letting those that are entering to go in. (Not talkin' about YOU in particular, just the theology, TC. Is it not obvious that if you are going to discourage people from turning to Christ, they will just go on to your next "requirement," "holy living"/Lordship Salvation/proof-works??

2. I have an Arminian pastor friend and he is not as half Anti-Calvinistic as you are.

I admit that, like Paul, my bark (at a distance) is worse than my bite (if I was with you). And especially because my objection is not with you as a Christian (neither my Catholic ranting with any particular Catholic) but with your shepherds.

3. Is this the best that you can do?: "Your comments go a long way toward explaining how you are "bewitched" with Calvinism, though. Even the "low hanging fruit" of scripture and logic are still "out of reach" to you."

TC -- can I just tell you that it is pretty obvious that Christ/God was tempted and could have sinned and you believe me? No, you have this "Calvinist ideal" to protect that makes Christ NOT like men --- that makes Him "all God and no man," so to speak. So I speak as to get your attention. That was the best I could do from my miniscule "sarcasm toolbox." :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

1. The nature of God is that he cannot choose evil, but can only choose the good.

2. He created man to choose either the good or the bad.

3. In the New Order of things, there's going to be no sin nor the ability to sin, yet man would have free will, but only to choose the good like God.

4. So the difference is the fall of man, that rendered the will of man enslaved to sin, from which he must be freed.

5. Only God can free the bondaged will of man (Rom 3-5; Eph 2; John 6:44, 45, 65).

1. I think you would agree that it is the "character" of God that He cannot sin, right? But character is defined by discipline, TC. IOW, nature would be something "programmed" like instinct -- character would be established by behavior regarding numerous "tests." I believe this same error occurs in Calvin's description of "sin nature." Man's character is to sin -- sinner. It is established from a foundation of nature (instincts) and circumstances such that the "soul that sinneth surely dies" toward God and life.

2. Yes, but man did not lose sight of "good" by the fall; he merely learned also the "bad."

3. Absolutely! A) Because there will be no temptation and B) because we would know better than to choose things like "pride" anyway having been already so "tested." Although C) it also appears that there will be 12 manner of fruit for the healing of the nations there, Rev 22:2. IOW, if Adam could have eaten therefrom, he would have had eternal life though he had sinned, right?

4. He "serves sin," yes. It is the "total" aspect of Calvin's depravity and Luther's bondage that doesn't ring true, TC. If everyone is demon possessed, I could agree. Short of that (and even those possessed can be retrieved somehow by the Spirit), men serve "good" on a relatively frequent basis as well.

5. Which, of course, is where Calvin takes any choice in the matter of salvation out of men's hands such that the "uncommitted"/unjustified move on into "sanctification mode" presuming they are saved/"elect" to it.

skypair

 

[skypair]

If we say God has the freedom to will, What of man? What did man have before the Fall and after the Fall?

Same "freedom of will" as the One in Whose image he was made.

But -- talk about one "unsanctified of the mind of God," look at Eve!

Don't you see (you call it a "mystery") that men with the indwelling Spirit still sin because of incomplete sanctification? Like I've said before, if we knew what God knows about sin, we wouldn't desire to sin. Eve knew next to nothing about "evil"/sin, right? That is the object of sanctification -- that we should have the mind of Christ and eventually, of God!

But we still can't have any of that until we are justified first -- enter into the new covenant/relationship with God!

skypair

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I hope so because the one thing I cannot bear is the thought of ANYONE presuming they are saved without "doing" something like praying the sinner's prayer.

Where's the icon for the smiley guy's jaw hitting the ground, then covering his mouth in astonishment. :laugh:

I must be a real thorn in your flesh then. lol I do not presume I am saved without me "doing" something like praying the sinner's prayer, I know I am.

My salvation was secured by God the Father's choice of me, before time began, who gave me to His Son Jesus Christ, who Redeemed me with His precious blood, yet slain before the foundation of the world, and the Holy Spirit in time irresistablly called and drew me, accomplishing the will of God. Some call that Calvinsim. I call it the doctrine of God.