One more thing, your argument is far outside what almost every Calvinist I have talked to on this Baptist Board. They say that God has free will and made Adam and Eve with it, and that man's free will is now Fallen and totally depraved. You are arguing God never had free will and never gave it. Another error to me in terms of even Reformed Systematic Theology.
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A Novel Soteriological Explanation in the Calvinism vs Arminianism Debate
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
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One more thing, your argument is far outside what almost every Calvinist I have talked to on this Baptist Board. They say that God has free will and made Adam and Eve with it, and that man's free will is now Fallen and totally depraved. You are arguing God never had free will and never gave it. Another error to me in terms of even Reformed Systematic Theology.
"Steven Yeadon
CHAPTER 2; OF GOD AND OF THE HOLY TRINITY
Paragraph 1. The Lord our God is but one only living and true God;1 whose subsistence is in and of Himself
,2 infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself;
3 a most pure spirit,
4 invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto
;5 who is immutable,6 immense,7 eternal,8 incomprehensible, almighty,9 every way infinite, most holy,10 most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,11 for His own glory;12 most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him,13 and withal most just and terrible in His judgments,14 hating all sin,15 and who will by no means clear the guilty.16
1 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Deut. 6:4
2 Jer. 10:10; Isa. 48:12
3 Exod. 3:14
4 John 4:24
5 1 Tim. 1:17; Deut. 4:15,16
6 Mal. 3:6
7 1 Kings 8:27; Jer. 23:23
8 Ps. 90:2
9 Gen. 17:1
10 Isa. 6:3
11 Ps. 115:3; Isa. 46:10
12 Prov. 16:4; Rom. 11:36
13 Exod. 34:6,7; Heb. 11:6
14 Neh. 9:32,33
15 Ps. 5:5,6
16 Exod. 34:7; Nahum 1:2,3
CHAPTER 2; OF GOD AND OF THE HOLY TRINITY
Paragraph 1. The Lord our God is but one only living and true God;1 whose subsistence is in and of Himself
,2 infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself;
3 a most pure spirit,
4 invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto
;5 who is immutable,6 immense,7 eternal,8 incomprehensible, almighty,9 every way infinite, most holy,10 most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,11 for His own glory;12 most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him,13 and withal most just and terrible in His judgments,14 hating all sin,15 and who will by no means clear the guilty.16
1 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Deut. 6:4
2 Jer. 10:10; Isa. 48:12
3 Exod. 3:14
4 John 4:24
5 1 Tim. 1:17; Deut. 4:15,16
6 Mal. 3:6
7 1 Kings 8:27; Jer. 23:23
8 Ps. 90:2
9 Gen. 17:1
10 Isa. 6:3
11 Ps. 115:3; Isa. 46:10
12 Prov. 16:4; Rom. 11:36
13 Exod. 34:6,7; Heb. 11:6
14 Neh. 9:32,33
15 Ps. 5:5,6
16 Exod. 34:7; Nahum 1:2,3
Yet you can show not one verse that says free will exists....
I am not posting about choice, or choose, I am saying there is not one verse that says free will for man or God Himself....
You are posting your speculations , I will offer scripture that says otherwise.
I have other pertinent information those here may enjoy.
This declaration that every knee will bow and every tongue confess we are so used to hearing is very interesting in its broader context, which is a call to repent by all the nations,
Isaiah 45:21-25
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25 “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”
People can make choices opposed to God’s will.
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(Genesis 15:12-15)
(Exodus 34:9)
(Exodus 33:3 and Exodus 33:5);
(Deuteronomy 9:6 and Deuteronomy 9:13);
(Deuteronomy 10:16); (Deuteronomy 31:27);
(Judges 2:19);
(2 Kings 17:14);
(2 Chronicles 30:8);
(2 Chronicles 36:13);
(Nehemiah 9:16);
(Isaiah 46:12);
(Isaiah 48:4);
(Jeremiah 7:26);
(Hosea 4:16)
And I know there are far more than this in the bible.
@Derf B
Psalms 139:16 should be a challenging verse for you. I would like to know how you make sense of it.
This declaration that every knee will bow and every tongue confess we are so used to hearing is very interesting in its broader context, which is a call to repent by all the nations,
Isaiah 45:21-25
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25 “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”
People can make choices opposed to God’s will.
-
(Genesis 15:12-15)
(Exodus 34:9)
(Exodus 33:3 and Exodus 33:5);
(Deuteronomy 9:6 and Deuteronomy 9:13);
(Deuteronomy 10:16); (Deuteronomy 31:27);
(Judges 2:19);
(2 Kings 17:14);
(2 Chronicles 30:8);
(2 Chronicles 36:13);
(Nehemiah 9:16);
(Isaiah 46:12);
(Isaiah 48:4);
(Jeremiah 7:26);
(Hosea 4:16)
And I know there are far more than this in the bible.
@Derf B
Psalms 139:16 should be a challenging verse for you. I would like to know how you make sense of it.
I found this that go with the things that please God from earlier. I figured you would love to have this resource.
Adding to this are the following observations from scripture:
Hezekiah claims righteousness from his actions and is rewarded with longer life in Isaiah 38:1-8
Isaiah 5:7 compares Israel to a pleasant plant planted by God
Romans 8:8 shows in the context of Romans 8:1-11 that God is displeased with those who gratify their flesh instead of living by the Spirit of God in believers.
Hebrews 12:4-13 tells us God scourges and discipline His children, God is certainly pleased by this even if His children view it as painful.
Luke 10:21 and Matthew 11:25 show God is pleased to hide the truths Jesus teaches from the wise and learned to instead give them to humble servants
Mark 12:33 shows God is more pleased by love for God with all our being and love of neighbor than any burnt offerings or sacrifices.
Hosea 6 in context shows God desires mercy and the knowledge of God and He does not desire sacrifices or burnt offerings without such. This becomes more evident given Psalm 40:6. Psalm 50:7-15 shows God wants are vows to His commandments fulfilled and that we call upon Him in our day of trouble. Psalm 51:16-17 adds that God desires a contrite and broken spirit before sacrifice. Isaiah 1:10-20 exhorts us to do right, seek justice, correct the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead the case of the widow before burnt offering and sacrifice. Giving God praise and thanksgiving is better than burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jeremiah 6:19-20 shows God takes no pleasure in sacrifice and burnt offering if there is rejection of His Law and no attention paid to His Words.
When people turn from sin to live Ezekiel 18:23 and Ezekiel 33:11. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked or of anyone (Ezekiel 18:23, 32).
Isaiah 56:4 shows God rewards those that please Him.
Isaiah 42:21 shows God is pleased to have made His Law great and glorious.
1 Samuel 15:22 tells us obedience and attentiveness please God more than burnt offerings and sacrifices, which still please God
Proverbs 21:3 tells us to do the right thing and justice are more pleasing to God than sacrifice
Ephesians 5:2 tells us Jesus Christ was a pleasing offering to God
1 Thessalonians 4:1-5 show believers must learn to control their own actions.
Psalm 147:11 raises a question do we fear God and steadfastly love Him before regeneration?
Psalm 69:30-31 shows that we can praise God with song and thank Him to please Him. Did that act to please God require regeneration?
1 Kings 3:10 shows us Solomon does something of his own volition that pleases God.
Philippians 2:12-16 tells the Colossians to work out their salvation in fear and trembling doing good because it is God in them working in them to will and act for His pleasure. They are immediately told not to complain or argue while doing anything.
Psalm 149:4 tells us God takes pleasure in His people Israel
Hebrews 11:5-6 Enoch is commended for pleasing God, it is why he never saw death
Ephesians 5:8-10 tell us we must discern what is pleasing to God
John 8:29 tells us Jesus always does what pleases God
1 Thessalonians 4:1-3 tells us the apostles teach how to please God, it is to obey God’s commandments in sanctification, in the case of the Thesallonaians especially to abstain from sexual sin.
Colossians 1:9-10 tells us to seek God’s will to please Him with our walk
1 Chronicles 29:17 has a man claiming uprightness of his own heart and that God tests the heart and is pleased with uprightness. This also segues with 1 Thessalonians 2:4.
The scriptures are full of pleas to please God rather than displeasure Him with our actions. If it was impossible to choose to please God, then why the constant appeals?
Thank you for your honesty. If you say there is no such thing as free will for man or God in the way many Reformed argue, then I will need to completely rethink my arguments. I will get back to you.
I just realized that your position reminds me of an argument put forward by C.S. Lewis. That there is only one possible world, the one we are in. I heartily disagree with Lewis on this, but I see my arguments against Lewis' position may find use in a debate with you.
The problem is if I change the word from "free will" to "choose" it changes nothing. If God is completely unchanging, then so are His choices due to His unchanging nature. You are describing a Being without flights of fancy or the whims of men.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
The problem with the line of thinking about God's emotions is that it equates His emotions to ours. In other words God's emotions are spoken of as if they are the same as ours, which is not the case. God is not capricious; He does not fly off the handle. Also, to argue that God makes emotional decisions presupposes whatever He is reacting to is unknown to Him. So, to argue the emotional line that you're referencing here must logically lead to some form of open theism.
The Archangel
yes, Sam Renihan points out God is love, he does not have it, He is love.
His perfections cannot be increased or diminished
The confessions of faith know it is a topic that people think about so they address it.
37818
Well-Known Member
That is non-sense statement. See, if God could not have chosen anyone from His eternity - that God is not God.
Then you claim;
I snipped your rant because I fail to see the point that that long quote was to prove.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
He doesn't?
" For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." ( 1 John 3:20 ).
"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen," ( Acts of the Apostles 1:24 ).
" then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, [even] thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;" ( 1 Kings 8:39 ).
" He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep." ( John 21:17 ).
" And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." ( Revelation 2:23 ).
" But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the Lord seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." ( 1 Samuel 16:7 ).
Are you sure that the Lord has to ever wrestle with the unknown as we do?
Respectfully, I see something different when I read these.
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" For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." ( 1 John 3:20 ).
"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen," ( Acts of the Apostles 1:24 ).
" then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, [even] thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men" ( 1 Kings 8:39 ).
" He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep." ( John 21:17 ).
" And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." ( Revelation 2:23 ).
" But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the Lord seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." ( 1 Samuel 16:7 ).
Thanks Dave!
Yet those verses don’t say anything about the hearts of those that don’t exist yet, do they? It only talks about God knowing (searching in other scripture) the hearts of the existing (pointedly in Acts 1:24, where the disciples are choosing between 2 existing men). Which gives context to “all things”.
(I also don’t see scripture for God knowing the hearts of those who have died, but that’s another subject)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
God’s ability to control His emotions (or control His actions which might be informed by His emotions) does not make His emotions different from ours. And we, as we walk more in His Spirit, are also supposed to learn better how to, for instance, “Be angry, but not sin.”
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
All things means all things to me, Derf.
I don't put it into context.
To me, the context, especially in John 21:17 and 1 John 3:20, I find to be obvious.
I hope you understand that you used logic to formulate that thought.
The problem with you notion is that God is not less than my logic.
My long quote did not do its job then. God uses both Monergism and Synergism to accomplish His will. I was trying to show that the earliest Believers in Jesus Christ were specially blessed as Isaac and Jacob were. They, like those chosen by God who had not worshipped Baal in the time of Elijah, were a chosen remnant. These two groups of people are thus chosen from the creation of the world to be firstfruits of those that are saved by Jesus Christ. However, not all people in history are like this. That is where Synergism comes in for the others. The chosen people predestined to glory are thus those talked of when the apostles communicate with the Brethren of their time. The following are examples of this,
James 1:18
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Ephesians 1:3-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Romans 8:23-25
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Romans 8:28-30, these verses make sense in light of what is about to be explained in Romans 9-11
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Jeremiah 1:4-8
4 Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
6 Then I said, “Alas, Lord God!
Behold, I do not know how to speak,
Because I am a youth.”
7 But the Lord said to me,
“Do not say, ‘I am a youth,’
Because everywhere I send you, you shall go,
And all that I command you, you shall speak.
8 “Do not be afraid of them,
For I am with you to deliver you,” declares the Lord.
Romans 11:2-15
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
My long quote did not do its job then. God uses both Monergism and Synergism to accomplish His will. I was trying to show that the earliest Believers in Jesus Christ were specially blessed as Isaac and Jacob were. They, like those chosen by God who had not worshipped Baal in the time of Elijah, were a chosen remnant. These two groups of people are thus chosen from the creation of the world to be firstfruits of those that are saved by Jesus Christ. However, not all people in history are like this. That is where Synergism comes in for the others. The chosen people predestined to glory are thus those talked of when the apostles communicate with the Brethren of their time. The following are examples of this,
James 1:18
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
Ephesians 1:3-12
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Romans 8:23-25
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Romans 8:28-30, these verses make sense in light of what is about to be explained in Romans 9-11
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Jeremiah 1:4-8
4 Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
6 Then I said, “Alas, Lord God!
Behold, I do not know how to speak,
Because I am a youth.”
7 But the Lord said to me,
“Do not say, ‘I am a youth,’
Because everywhere I send you, you shall go,
And all that I command you, you shall speak.
8 “Do not be afraid of them,
For I am with you to deliver you,” declares the Lord.
Romans 11:2-15
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Why do you think it challenging? It’s talking about the formation of a body in a womb. I’m not a KJV-only guy, but it’s interesting that they didn’t think of it as something that applies to David’s life-span. Here’s the quote:
Psalms 139:16 (KJV) Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.
The newer versions seem to have missed the obvious context.
I'll have to do more research on it then. Thank you.
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