"Derf B,
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A Novel Soteriological Explanation in the Calvinism vs Arminianism Debate
- Thread starter Steven Yeadon
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You were the one that distinguished your god from mine. Here's what you said:
If we are worshipping two different gods, as you assert, are you saying I should capitalize the one I DON'T think is the true God? You aren't making any sense.
Does that offend you so, that you aren't willing to talk about your god anymore, because someone says they believe in another god? Paul shows us that we still have a word to speak to those that believe in other gods. And perhaps they worship the true God unknowingly (not knowing much about Him). I'm willing to say I need to know more about God. Are you? Do you think you've already plumbed the depths of God's truth about Himself?
We should all of us always be willing to give up our presuppositions in favor of revealed truth.
"Derf B,
My God accomplished redemption, reconciliation, and propitiation on behalf of His people.It was not potential but actual.
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My God accomplished redemption, reconciliation, and propitiation on behalf of His people.It was not potential but actual.
No..it is because you cannot understand the scripture offered, so no progress will take place.
Not at issue.
Scripture says faith is not a work for which the believer might boast.
Fiction piled on fiction.
Fiction piled on fiction is yet again posted. No one has "inherit faith."
Matthew 13 describes four kinds of people, from non-receptive, to somewhat receptive to fully receptive. And scripture indicates by cultivation, planting and watering, those somewhat receptive may move into the fully receptive category such that God will credit their faith as righteousness and place them into Christ.
ve13
That's interesting, especially given your username. You probably don't need a definition, but here it is, anyway: "a person who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions."
So why is it that when I disagree with the traditional view on God's knowledge of the future, you excoriate me, but then you celebrate such disagreement when you do it?
[Mat 12:36 KJV] But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
[Mat 12:37 KJV] For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Ok, you're probably tired of reading this, but one more input about your username. The other definition of iconoclast is "one who destroys images (icons) used in religious worship". I challenge you to be what you claim to be. The idea that God needs to know all future things, including which socks you plan to be wearing in 10 years, to be God, is quite possibly an icon used in religious worship--a false image of God.
Agreed! And "not only for ours (His people) but also for the sins of the whole world." 1John 2:2. Not potential, but actual, right?
Are you saying that unless I agree with the established interpretation, that I'm not "understanding the scripture offered"?
That's interesting, especially given your username. You probably don't need a definition, but here it is, anyway: "a person who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions."
So why is it that when I disagree with the traditional view on God's knowledge of the future, you excoriate me, but then you celebrate such disagreement when you do it?
[Mat 12:36 KJV] But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
[Mat 12:37 KJV] For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Ok, you're probably tired of reading this, but one more input about your username. The other definition of iconoclast is "one who destroys images (icons) used in religious worship". I challenge you to be what you claim to be. The idea that God needs to know all future things, including which socks you plan to be wearing in 10 years, to be God, is quite possibly an icon used in religious worship--a false image of God.
Y1 again demonstrates total inability to address the topic.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Born again believers are in the minority in this world, Van.
I'm curious...
Given that the Lord has told us these:
" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ( Matthew 7:13-14 ).
" Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. " ( Luke 13:23-24 )
" Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 )
Along with the parables of the tares and the Sower...
How is it that you have come to the apparent conclusion that their doctrines and beliefs will not be in the minority of all who profess Christ?
As I see it, "mainstream", "orthodoxy" and "minority views" being used to determine what Scripture actually teaches, should be completely irrelevant.
On a side note:
Here's a commentary that is significantly opposed to Barnes and Clarke, although I personally ignore such things except to see if they agree with what I believe the Lord to be showing me via His Spirit:
" Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God,
&c.] The main and principal one, and which is well pleasing in his sight; and without which it is impossible to please him; and without which no work whatever is a good work; and this is of the operation of God, which he himself works in men; it is not of themselves, it is the pure gift of God:
that ye believe on him whom he hath sent;
there are other works which are well pleasing to God, when rightly performed, but faith is the chief work, and others are only acceptable when done in the faith of Christ. This, as a principle, is purely God's work; as it is an act, or as it is exercised under the influence of divine grace, it is man's act: "that ye believe"; the object of it is Christ, as sent by the Father, as the Mediator between God and men, as appointed by him to be the Saviour and Redeemer; and believing in Christ, is believing in God that sent him. The Jews reduce all the six hundred and thirteen precepts of the law, for so many they say there are, to this one, "the just shall live by his faith", ( Habakkuk 2:4 ) . - John Gill.
Emphasis mine.
Source: John 6:29 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse
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Van, look at the parable. Humans are the dead seeds. The soil is where God, the sower, places them. There is only one type of seed, not four. Read the parable:
Matthew 13:3-9
And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears,let him hear.”
Van, Jesus finishes with "He who has ears, let him hear." Read the passage and hear.
Your statement make the Bible a liar.
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,
Humans are the dead seeds??????? You might want to read that again, yourself, AC.
Look at the passage. The sower sows the seeds. The seeds are you and me. We are not the soil.
In other passages we see that a seed is dead until it germinates. So...yes, when the seed is first tossed, it is dead.
Do you think the sower, God, is unaware of where he has thrown the seed (you and me)?
Now, go back and re-read the passage.
Matthew 13:3-9 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears,let him hear.”
Context, context, context! Context includes the interpretation. Jesus describes the ground as the one that receives the seed either well or poorly:
[Mat 13:19 KJV] When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
[Mat 13:20 KJV] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[Mat 13:22 KJV] He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
[Mat 13:23 KJV] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
The "he" in all of the above receiveth well or poorly the seed, which in that last verse is defined as "the word".
But in case there's any doubt, then compare with a parallel passage, like this one:
[Luk 8:11 KJV] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Context, context, context.
Look at Jesus explanation.
We are the seeds, not the soil.
Matthew 13:18-23
“Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
What was it that the sower sowed, Derf? Hint: it wasn't dirt.
The text is very, very clear. We are the seeds. If you miss that, you completely miss the meaning of the parable.
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