A Novel Soteriological Explanation in the Calvinism vs Arminianism Debate

[Dave G]

our statement make the Bible a liar.
Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,

MB,
Here it is in the AV:

" For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." ( Romans 12:3 ).

Is not the context developed earlier in the verse, where it says, "to every man that is among you"?
I see that Paul is telling the Roman believers that God has dealt to every man that was among them the measure of faith.

Also, how about this?
" and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

 

[Dave G]

Context, context, context.
Look at Jesus explanation.
We are the seeds, not the soil.

Look at it closer, Austin.

Respectfully,
I think that Derf is correct on this one.
We ( our hearts ) are the soil and the seed is the word of God...

" Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).

" Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience." ( Luke 8:11-15 ).

An unregenerate heart gets bogged down in the world, which they really never left.
A changed heart keeps the word, and brings forth true spiritual fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ) with patience.

There is only one type of seed, not four.

What was it that the sower sowed, Derf? Hint: it wasn't dirt.

The word of God, my friend.

The text is very, very clear. We are the seeds. If you miss that, you completely miss the meaning of the parable.

In other Scriptures I might agree with you about believers being the "seed"...
Such as Romans 9:29;
But not in this one.

Take another look, and compare what I've underlined and highlighted for emphasis.

 

[AustinC]

Look at it closer, Austin.

Respectfully,
I think that Derf is correct on this one.
We ( our hearts ) are the soil and the seed is the word of God...

" Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).

" Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience." ( Luke 8:11-15 ).

An unregenerate heart gets bogged down in the world, which they really never left.
A changed heart keeps the word, and brings forth true spiritual fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ) with patience.


The word of God, my friend.

In other Scriptures I might agree with you about believers being the "seed"...
Such as Romans 9:29;
But not in this one.

Take another look, and compare what I've underlined and highlighted for emphasis.

The passage isn't about believers, however. The passage is about humanity. We humans are the seed. We are not the soil.

NLT Bible. Matthew 13:3-9,18-23
[3]He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:“Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds.
[4]As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them.
[5]Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow.
[6]But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died.
[7]Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants.
[8]Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!
[9]Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”


[18]“Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds:
[19]The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.
[20]The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy.
[21]But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.
[22]The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced.
[23]The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

Two different versions, both clearly point to humans being the seed in the parable.

 

[Derf B]

[19]The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.

Just one example from your version that is so “clear”. The evil one snatched the seed out of “their” hearts.
Who is “their” talking about?

 

[AustinC]

Just one example from your version that is so “clear”. The evil one snatched the seed out of “their” hearts.
Who is “their” talking about?

This is a very good question. Let us wrestle with this together.

[19]The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.

We observe that the seed represents those who hear the message.
Question: Do humans hear the message or is it someone/something else?

We observe there is an evil one who snatches away the seed.

Question: Who is the evil one?
Question: Who/what is the seed?

We observe the seed was planted in their heart.

Question: Who/what is the seed?
Question: Who is "their"?
Question: What is their heart(s)?

Derf, I want to thank you for pointing this out. I have to humbly admit that my initial assertion may be wrong. I have to spend more time observing and seeking God as there certainly is a contradiction in this verse that I must work out with honest observation, not biased opinion.
So...thank you for pointing this out.

 

[Van]

You are the one that keeps misunderstanding the scriptures!

LOL, you get almost everything wrong and then claim the truth of scripture is wrong.

Faith is not a work for which a person can boast! Pretty simple really
Faith is according to grace. Pretty simple really

 

[Van]

Born again believers are in the minority in this world, Van.

Here's a commentary that is significantly opposed to Barnes and Clarke, although I personally ignore such things except to see if they agree with what I believe the Lord to be showing me via His Spirit:

" Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God,
&c.] The main and principal one, and which is well pleasing in his sight; and without which it is impossible to please him; and without which no work whatever is a good work; and this is of the operation of God, which he himself works in men; it is not of themselves, it is the pure gift of God:

that ye believe on him whom he hath sent;
there are other works which are well pleasing to God, when rightly performed, but faith is the chief work, and others are only acceptable when done in the faith of Christ. This, as a principle, is purely God's work; as it is an act, or as it is exercised under the influence of divine grace, it is man's act: "that ye believe"; the object of it is Christ, as sent by the Father, as the Mediator between God and men, as appointed by him to be the Saviour and Redeemer; and believing in Christ, is believing in God that sent him. The Jews reduce all the six hundred and thirteen precepts of the law, for so many they say there are, to this one, "the just shall live by his faith", ( Habakkuk 2:4 ) . - John Gill.

Emphasis mine.

Source: John 6:29 - Meaning and Commentary on Bible Verse

Yes, you can find some Calvinist commentaries which reguritate the reading of Calvinism into "the work of God." But when viewed in context, with people asking what they can do, and Jesus answering the question of what they could do, the intended meaning, held by the majority of scholars, is John 6:29 meaning is that requires that the fallen believe in Jesus.

 

[Van]

Of course, as we have no inherit faith in us!

Y1 loves to claim others believe in "inherit faith." But it is his fiction, and his millstone.

 

[Van]

Van, look at the parable. Humans are the dead seeds. The soil is where God, the sower, places them. There is only one type of seed, not four. Read the parable:

Matthew 13:3-9
And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears,let him hear.”

Van, Jesus finishes with "He who has ears, let him hear." Read the passage and hear.

Three of the four soils did not suffer from total spiritual inability because they believed the gospel to a degree. Pay no attention to those who deny biblical truth.

And why did Jesus speak in parables? Folks to prevent the fallen audience from understanding and being healed, Matthew 13:15.

Jesus read you bible folks, it is all there for you to understand.

 

[Derf B]

This is a very good question. Let us wrestle with this together.

[19]The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.

We observe that the seed represents those who hear the message.
Question: Do humans hear the message or is it someone/something else?

We observe there is an evil one who snatches away the seed.

Question: Who is the evil one?
Question: Who/what is the seed?

We observe the seed was planted in their heart.

Question: Who/what is the seed?
Question: Who is "their"?
Question: What is their heart(s)?

Derf, I want to thank you for pointing this out. I have to humbly admit that my initial assertion may be wrong. I have to spend more time observing and seeking God as there certainly is a contradiction in this verse that I must work out with honest observation, not biased opinion.
So...thank you for pointing this out.

Bravo, Austin! Let's do more wrestling like this!

I'll try to minimize the caustic responses on my part!

 

[The Archangel]

Most of what you've responded is a combination of the ad-hominem and the red herring fallacies and, as such, is not worth responding to.

It doesn't matter between "image" and "likeness". You can use either one, since God used both:

[Gen 1:26 KJV] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Again... Image and likeness are two different words, and they are not interchangeable or synonymous. צֶלֶם and דְּמוּת are of different roots. Since I've already explained it to you and it has bounced off, I have no need to explain it again. Suffice it to say, just because you want them to mean the same does not make it so.

This sentence was not in existence two minutes ago. (see? no waiting required!)

Again... there is a fundamental difference. Man can "create" by re-arranging the material God has created. God creates out of nothing. In writing that sentence you use pre-existing stuff that God created. In no way, shape, or form, did you come close to "creating" in a way reminiscent of the way God creates.

Again, "basic theology" is worthless (actually worse than worthless--it's harmful) if it isn't supported by scripture. Your presupposition is that God "can't regret" while viewing a verse that says He does sometimes. If the "warp and woof" of scripture means you get to poor alien meanings into words, that only you and a select few get to define, you have just removed the truth of the bible from the common man and hidden it in the hands of a priestly class that now can tell the population what to do and think and how to worship God according to your own whims.

If God is really all about "hate", but He says in His word that He is "Love", how are we going to believe Him? If He tells us He regrets something, but really it means that He doesn't ever regret anything, how are we going to believe Him when He says, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."? Wouldn't it follow that He really means, "God doesn't love the world", and "He didn't give His only begotten Son", and "only the people God chose--certainly not 'whosoever'--from the foundation of the world are going to have everlasting life"

Let's try it this way. If "God never regrets" is plain through the warp and woof of scripture, then you should be able to find a verse or two that says "God never regrets". Since you have already pointed out that there are scriptures that say "God regrets" you have your work cut out for you. Please let's resume this conversation when you find one or two.

I don't know that I've seen a more thorough demonstration of a complete and total lack of theological acumen. This line of questioning is, again, a red herring. I have already explained these things to you. This foolishness of yours is above my spending of time on it. I leave you to your foolishness and the mercy of God.

The Archangel

 

[AustinC]

@Derf B @Dave G
Thank you both for challenging my assertions of the parable of the sower.
I have read multiple english translations, sought to observe the parable, ask questions of my observations and rightly divide the word of God. After this, I reviewed what others had written.
Therefore, I openly retract my statement that the seed is humanity and the sower is God. While the NLT does seem to translate it that way, the majority of translations do not. In truth, the better observation is that the seeds scattered is the word of God (the gospel). The sower is the one who shares the gospel. The soil is the one who receives the gospel and the things that take place is the ordination of God via actions of both the devil and God (with God Sovereignly overseeing).

I would rather be honest with God's word than be prideful and arrogant with my opinion. Therefore, I openly thank you and appreciate your iron, which sharpens iron.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 330 pm EDT / 1230 pm PDT

 

[Derf B]

Most of what you've responded is a combination of the ad-hominem and the red herring fallacies and, as such, is not worth responding to.



Again... Image and likeness are two different words, and they are not interchangeable or synonymous. צֶלֶם and דְּמוּת are of different roots. Since I've already explained it to you and it has bounced off, I have no need to explain it again. Suffice it to say, just because you want them to mean the same does not make it so.



Again... there is a fundamental difference. Man can "create" by re-arranging the material God has created. God creates out of nothing. In writing that sentence you use pre-existing stuff that God created. In no way, shape, or form, did you come close to "creating" in a way reminiscent of the way God creates.



I don't know that I've seen a more thorough demonstration of a complete and total lack of theological acumen. This line of questioning is, again, a red herring. I have already explained these things to you. This foolishness of yours is above my spending of time on it. I leave you to your foolishness and the mercy of God.

The Archangel

Since you didn’t address my arguments but attempted to deflect from them and then want to take your ball and go home, I’ll just declare victory and move on. But I’d rather continue the discussion if we can get to the meat of the meaning of the text.

Enjoy,
Derf


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[MB]

Most of what you've responded is a combination of the ad-hominem and the red herring fallacies and, as such, is not worth responding to.

Yet you responded How great thou art. It's interesting just how proud you really are. Pride goes before the fall

Again... Image and likeness are two different words, and they are not interchangeable or synonymous. צֶלֶם and דְּמוּת are of different roots. Since I've already explained it to you and it has bounced off, I have no need to explain it again. Suffice it to say, just because you want them to mean the same does not make it so.

Just because you pretend to be so knowledgeable doesn't make it so either.

Again... there is a fundamental difference. Man can "create" by re-arranging the material God has created. God creates out of nothing. In writing that sentence you use pre-existing stuff that God created. In no way, shape, or form, did you come close to "creating" in a way reminiscent of the way God creates.

What pride and arrogance you qualify to represent the opposite side of Christianity

I don't know that I've seen a more thorough demonstration of a complete and total lack of theological acumen. This line of questioning is, again, a red herring. I have already explained these things to you. This foolishness of yours is above my spending of time on it. I leave you to your foolishness and the mercy of God.

Thank you for leaving in disgrace
Completely Asinine; You should pray you don't trip over your own arrogance and pride.
MB[/QUOTE]

 

[MB]

MB,
Here it is in the AV:

" For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." ( Romans 12:3 ).

Is not the context developed earlier in the verse, where it says, "to every man that is among you"?
I see that Paul is telling the Roman believers that God has dealt to every man that was among them the measure of faith.

Also, how about this?
" and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

You are right it is to every man because every man has a measure of faith other wise you have found a contradiction in scripture and we all know there are no contradictions in scripture.
The actual wording of the verse in the YLT is like this;
2Th 3:2 and that we may be delivered from the unreasonable and evil men, for the faith is not of all;

"The faith" for me describes the faith in Christ Jesus. Of course not all have faith in Christ.
MB

 

[The Archangel]

Since you didn’t address my arguments but attempted to deflect from them and then want to take your ball and go home, I’ll just declare victory and move on. But I’d rather continue the discussion if we can get to the meat of the meaning of the text.

Enjoy,
Derf


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Declare victory? Over your wrongness? By all means go ahead. You’ve proven that you don’t care to go into the meat of the text. You continually make assertions without backing them up and hold to them in the face of evidence to the contrary.

The Archangel


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[The Archangel]

Yet you responded How great thou art. It's interesting just how proud you really are. Pride goes before the fall

Just because you pretend to be so knowledgeable doesn't make it so either.


What pride and arrogance you qualify to represent the opposite side of Christianity



Thank you for leaving in disgrace
Completely Asinine; You should pray you don't trip over your own arrogance and pride.
MB

In case you or anyone else was wondering, this is pretty much the textbook example of the ad-hominem.

The Archangel


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[The Archangel]

Yet you responded How great thou art. It's interesting just how proud you really are. Pride goes before the fall

Just because you pretend to be so knowledgeable doesn't make it so either.


What pride and arrogance you qualify to represent the opposite side of Christianity

Thank you for leaving in disgrace
Completely Asinine; You should pray you don't trip over your own arrogance and pride.
MB

So... disagreeing with your position is what makes one arrogant?? Hmmmmm... Arrogance in the Bible is to proudly do what is right in your own eyes (as opposed to doing what is right in God's eyes). Your entire ad-hominem is nothing more than a personal attack on my Christian character. To write such a thing (when considering Jesus' call to love one another) must mean you think you're doing the Lord's work by calling me proud and asinine. Again, considering Jesus' commands to His followers, what you've done here--acting in direct opposition to God's word as it concerns a brother in Christ--is the height of arrogance.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

LOL, you get almost everything wrong and then claim the truth of scripture is wrong.

Faith is not a work for which a person can boast! Pretty simple really
Faith is according to grace. Pretty simple really

You are the one that claims God credits something that is a free gift from Him as somehow being righteous!