A novel view on Old Earth Creationism

[Seeker of the Source]

Many YEC and OEC folks may not know about this book (released in 1996 and 2011)
Genesis Unbound: A Provocative New Look at the Creation Account I found it to be a very interesting viewpoint by a Hebrew language scholar. It is a recommended read.

I used to be a YEC after I was first saved in 1974, reading The Genesis Flood and other ICR materials. I was part of the Triangle Association for Creationism About Us | TASC in Raleigh, NC as I was a medical research scientist at the time. I kept doing creationism research and stumbled upon Dan Wonderley's God's Time-Records in Ancient Sediments and it blew my YEC mind-set out of the water. I loaned my copy to other members of the Triangle Association for Creationism and they refused to even read it! I have been a very comfortable OEC ever since.

I went to the Ark Encounter in Kentucky last year and was impressed by the size of everything but going inside, I was saddened to see it was floor after floor of Ken Ham's "accept-YEC" show and no mention of the OEC alternative. Also, the whole gestalt of the Ark Encounter reminded of a "Disney" themed attraction that spilled finally into the gift shop. Ham even had a restaurant named after Noah's wife which he made up himself.

Anyway, YEC as such comes across very close-minded and psuedo-scientific in its tenets and arguments. YEC adherents even claim Christians who disagree with YEC don't believe the Bible and cause salvation itself to be questioned. That is just not fair.

I recommend YEC and OEC folks read Snoke's A Biblical Case for an Old Earth, Young's The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth, Whorton's Peril in Paradise: Theology, Science, and the Age of the Earth, Assorted authors'The Grand Canyon, Monument to an Ancient Earth: Can Noah's Flood Explain the Grand Canyon? and Yilmaz's Top 20 Proofs for an Old Earth: Why Young Earth Creationism is Untenable: Excerpts from the book Deliver Us From Evolution?

Lastly, if any YEC or OEC folks out there are interested, I am selling a very rare 1973 YEC book here: Science and Creation book creation-science research center 1973 Rare Creationist | eBay
I just don't need it anymore.

 

[37818]

I am open to some YEC thinking. I accept the literal 6 days and God resting on the 7th day. BUT I hold to an old univers. I suspect the known universe is much older than the big bang theory calculates. So believing in the Genesis six days of cteation I am effectivly OEC.

My question is do you accept a Biblical global flood, or the typical OEC universal flood? Or what? I favor a Global flood but maybe as much as 300,000,000 years ago. But if only some 8,000 years ago, if that is what is true, that is fine by me.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Sailhamer addresses the six days of Genesis in his book "Genesis Unbound" as days of God preparing a specific "land" for Adam and Eve -- not the entire planet. The KJV word in Genesis in the creation account called the "earth" should be translated the "land". There was a literal six, 24-hour days of preparing or "recreating" a "specific area" on the planet that a cosmic chaos had brought waste and "void" to -- and this I agree with. I can totally buy into that scenario. So, Sailhamer basically is asserting the "Gap Theory" between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 which makes perfect sense to me. God allowed the warfare with Satan to reach the earth but in spite of the havoc wreaked, He started over with a new thing called "Man" the forerunner of the coming "God-Man" aka Jesus the Christ. This theory allows for an earth history of countless aeons but also allows for a subsequent 6-day "recreation". Sailhamer explains this all much better than I can.

The universe is vastly old and larger than we can imagine. And the earth is ancient as well. Mankind, (Homo sapiens, Homo sapiens neaderthalensis, Homo erectus and all the polymorphic, gender divergent Homos included), are relatively new things on this earth.

Was the Global Flood worldwide? Yes, I believe it was and a great fish swallowed Jonah and Jesus rose from the dead. I believe all these things. When the Flood happened, I have no clue. But Genesis 6 is history and not fable.

Lastly, if you ever want to experience a very unusual view of earth history then try to get through G.H. Pember's "Earth's Earliest Ages". G. H. Pember - Wikipedia
I found it an interesting and challenging read but I totally could not buy into his idea of pre-Adamic men roaming the earth. Just too whacked for me . . .

I quote from another webpage,"Pember distinguishes between corrupted "angels" who joined Satan's rebellion, and "demons," the spirits of the sinful pre-Adamite creatures who walked Earth in ages past. If there was a pre-Adamite race of creatures or beings, where are their fossils? Pember offers several suggestions: God might have zapped or rotted them; they might have been swallowed up by the Earth; or, most likely, they may be entombed at the bottom of the abyss, where their spirits are still imprisoned. . . ." See what I mean, just too "out there".

Well, I have blabbed long enough. I need to go edit another website's database . . .

God bless!

 

[37818]

The universe is vastly old and larger than we can imagine.

Our observable universe is expanding. And so what we observe is smaller than what might be. The red shift makes the smaller look larger. Also looking in all directions we are effectivly looking into the unverse's center. So I see a collapsing universe. And its final end being after the 1000 years from Christ's return. Psalms 102:26.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Our observable universe is expanding. And so what we observe is smaller than what might be. The red shift makes the smaller look larger. Also looking in all directions we are effectivly looking into the unverse's center. So I see a collapsing universe. And its final end being after the 1000 years from Christ's return. Psalms 102:26.

Hunh? I totally don't get what you are asserting here. Is the universe an expanding or a collapsing thing? From phys.org "The dynamics of vacuum energy sequestering predict that the universe will collapse, but don't provide a specific mechanism for how collapse will occur. ... Currently, we are in the period of accelerated expansion, and we know that the universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old."

Also, from bbc.com "Today we are fairly confident that the Milky Way is probably between 100,000 and 150,000 light years across. The observable Universe is, of course, much larger. According to current thinking it is about 93 billion light years in diameter."

So what is a light year anyway? From space.com "The speed of light in a vacuum is 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometers per second), and in theory nothing can travel faster than light. In miles per hour, light speed is, well, a lot: about 670,616,629 mph." So light traveling at this immense speed would take 93 billion years to travel from one edge of the universe to to the other edge! That size is incomprehensible for our minds to be able to fully grasp. Like I said, "The universe is vastly old and larger than we can imagine."

Please further elaborate and fully explain your statements. None of what you say makes any sense as stated.

And lastly, what is this 1000 years from Christ's return statement? Are you saying after the millennial reign of Jesus, the Creator then ushers in a new heaven(s) and a new earth?

Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. and Rev 21: 1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away . . .

Well that I can understand and agree with!

 

[37818]

Hunh? I totally don't get what you are asserting here. Is the universe an expanding or a collapsing thing? From phys.org "The dynamics of vacuum energy sequestering predict that the universe will collapse, but don't provide a specific mechanism for how collapse will occur. ... Currently, we are in the period of accelerated expansion, and we know that the universe is approximately 13.8 billion years old."

Also, from bbc.com "Today we are fairly confident that the Milky Way is probably between 100,000 and 150,000 light years across. The observable Universe is, of course, much larger. According to current thinking it is about 93 billion light years in diameter."

So what is a light year anyway? From space.com "The speed of light in a vacuum is 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometers per second), and in theory nothing can travel faster than light. In miles per hour, light speed is, well, a lot: about 670,616,629 mph." So light traveling at this immense speed would take 93 billion years to travel from one edge of the universe to to the other edge! That size is incomprehensible for our minds to be able to fully grasp. Like I said, "The universe is vastly old and larger than we can imagine."

Please further elaborate and fully explain your statements. None of what you say makes any sense as stated.

And lastly, what is this 1000 years from Christ's return statement? Are you saying after the millennial reign of Jesus, the Creator then ushers in a new heaven(s) and a new earth?

Rev. 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. and Rev 21: 1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away . . .

Well that I can understand and agree with!

Yes, I agree with Reveation 20:11 is the end of this universe.
It is my understanding the 1000 years, Revelation 20:4-10 is before the Judgement, Revelation 20:11.

Now about what appears ro be an expanding universe colapsing. From the view of expanding from small to large. Iooking out to the exspance we are looking back in time tward the universe seemed to have began. In the past it was smaller. What we see as the outer edge is its center. So its expnding out tward its center, so it has been colapsing, no big bang.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Now about what appears ro be an expanding universe colapsing. From the view of expanding from small to large. Iooking out to the exspance we are looking back in time tward the universe seemed to have began. In the past it was smaller. What we see as the outer edge is its center. So its expnding out tward its center, so it has been colapsing, no big bang.

I agree that the distant light we see from stars/galaxies/etc is light created vast periods backwards in time. So what we see "out there" is looking back in time to "dead" events that now no longer exist. If the universe is actually expanding then it follows that it used to be smaller long ago. What we see as the "outer edge" was its center as a logical premise. It is expanding therefore outwards from its former center. Are you saying that we can't see now if the universe is collapsing because that event is too far away at some past time point for its light evidence to have reached us yet?

I prefer to think there was really no Godless "Big Bang" but that the Word of God spoke all things into existence, perhaps even flinging the Cosmos out into what was formerly all but vacuum or nihilo. If He has predestined its collapse, we will never know so before He returns.

 

[37818]

I agree that the distant light we see from stars/galaxies/etc is light created vast periods backwards in time. So what we see "out there" is looking back in time to "dead" events that now no longer exist. If the universe is actually expanding then it follows that it used to be smaller long ago. What we see as the "outer edge" was its center as a logical premise. It is expanding therefore outwards from its former center. Are you saying that we can't see now if the universe is collapsing because that event is too far away at some past time point for its light evidence to have reached us yet?

I prefer to think there was really no Godless "Big Bang" but that the Word of God spoke all things into existence, perhaps even flinging the Cosmos out into what was formerly all but vacuum or nihilo. If He has predestined its collapse, we will never know so before He returns.

View attachment 4318

The more local universe is said to be expanding faster than the distant past. This is said to be do to dark energy. My thinking is the collapse is speeding up. In any case, Revelation 20:11.

 

[church mouse guy]

Many YEC and OEC folks may not know about this book (released in 1996 and 2011)
Genesis Unbound: A Provocative New Look at the Creation Account I found it to be a very interesting viewpoint by a Hebrew language scholar. It is a recommended read.

I used to be a YEC after I was first saved in 1974, reading The Genesis Flood and other ICR materials. I was part of the Triangle Association for Creationism About Us | TASC in Raleigh, NC as I was a medical research scientist at the time. I kept doing creationism research and stumbled upon Dan Wonderley's God's Time-Records in Ancient Sediments and it blew my YEC mind-set out of the water. I loaned my copy to other members of the Triangle Association for Creationism and they refused to even read it! I have been a very comfortable OEC ever since.

I went to the Ark Encounter in Kentucky last year and was impressed by the size of everything but going inside, I was saddened to see it was floor after floor of Ken Ham's "accept-YEC" show and no mention of the OEC alternative. Also, the whole gestalt of the Ark Encounter reminded of a "Disney" themed attraction that spilled finally into the gift shop. Ham even had a restaurant named after Noah's wife which he made up himself.

Anyway, YEC as such comes across very close-minded and psuedo-scientific in its tenets and arguments. YEC adherents even claim Christians who disagree with YEC don't believe the Bible and cause salvation itself to be questioned. That is just not fair.

I recommend YEC and OEC folks read Snoke's A Biblical Case for an Old Earth, Young's The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth, Whorton's Peril in Paradise: Theology, Science, and the Age of the Earth, Assorted authors'The Grand Canyon, Monument to an Ancient Earth: Can Noah's Flood Explain the Grand Canyon? and Yilmaz's Top 20 Proofs for an Old Earth: Why Young Earth Creationism is Untenable: Excerpts from the book Deliver Us From Evolution?

Lastly, if any YEC or OEC folks out there are interested, I am selling a very rare 1973 YEC book here: Science and Creation book creation-science research center 1973 Rare Creationist | eBay
I just don't need it anymore.

Ham did not make up a name for Noah’s wife for the buffet restaurant. The name comes from Jewish sources. The name is Emzara and Ham clearly states the origin and freely admits that he made up names for the wives of Noah’s sons.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Ham did not make up a name for Noah’s wife for the buffet restaurant. The name comes from Jewish sources. The name is Emzara and Ham clearly states the origin and freely admits that he made up names for the wives of Noah’s sons.

OK, whatever, I suppose Jewish sources are as good as Genesis then. I still think naming a buffet restaurant after an unconfirmed name related to a well-known biblical personality is kinda lame. And making up the other names is goofy as well. IMHO

 

[church mouse guy]

OK, whatever, I suppose Jewish sources are as good as Genesis then. I still think naming a buffet restaurant after an unconfirmed name related to a well-known biblical personality is kinda lame. And making up the other names is goofy as well. IMHO

It’s Jewish tradition and Emzara means mother of Sara. As you know, Ark Encounter is a private Christian museum and I suppose that they gave names to the wives of Noah’s sons in an attempt to humanize the life-size models throughout the ship. On your previous point about deep time, they thought that deep time belongs to the secular world.

 

[rlvaughn]

Ham even had a restaurant named after Noah's wife which he made up himself.

Well, you gotta eat somewhere!

Lastly, if you ever want to experience a very unusual view of earth history then try to get through G.H. Pember's "Earth's Earliest Ages". G. H. Pember - Wikipedia
I found it an interesting and challenging read but I totally could not buy into his idea of pre-Adamic men roaming the earth. Just too whacked for me . . .

Some professors in a Bible college I attended held the pre-man view, and recommended the work of Pember. A fellow student gave me a copy, which I still have, but I never read it. I couldn't and didn't accept the pre-man idea.

 

[church mouse guy]

Well, you gotta eat somewhere!

Some professors in a Bible college I attended held the pre-man view, and recommended the work of Pember. A fellow student gave me a copy, which I still have, but I never read it. I couldn't and didn't accept the pre-man idea.

There are many small building restaurants sprinkled around the Ark Encounter. Emzara’s is a buffet and everything is made from scratch. John MacArthur said it was the best buffet that he had ever eaten at. It seats 1200. Everything at Ark Encounter is world class and very clean. It cost over 100 million dollars. There are rare priceless Bibles on display. Prices are modest. The Kentucky people who work there are very kind and polite, as are all Kentuckians. People from all over the world visit there. The nearby Creation Museum is the one of the few such museums in the world and may be the largest. The Commonwealth of Kentucky has ruled that the Ark Encounter can accommodate 10,000 people at one time. Next summer there will be Southern Gospel concerts in the new 2,500 seat auditorium at the Ark. I think they will last 6 weeks.

 

[Scott Downey]

God's heaven is above and separate from our heaven that we see.
There are 3 places of existence for beings.
The great deep in which is hell, it is under the earth
The earth above the great deep and below heaven
The heavens above the earth

That is it it, nobody lives on another earth like planet. I am a YEC myself.

The demons and devil roam over the earth and the air above the earth, but they are denied access to heaven.
Fallen angels God are chained in hell, they are down in the great deep, the bottomless pit, which is under the earth.
The demons are not fallen angels, they are the offspring of fallen angels and mortal women who birthed Nephilim and they all died during the flood and their spirits are the evil spirits (demons) who torment man. They also tormented man when they were nephilim (giants) on the earth before the flood, nothing new there as regards to their personalities. Being hybrid creatures, they dont go to hell, or heaven. Hell was made for the devil and HIS ANGELS. People do go to hell when they die unsaved right now. But the demons obviously God left to torment and try human beings on the earth. Scripture clearly says the angels who fell, God locked up in dungeons, they are no longer on or around the earth. Scripture clearly says demons are here on the earth and in the air as powers of the air, with Satan as their prince.

You can disagree all you want, but if your contrary then that contrariness is with scripture, not me.

Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

Revelation 5:3
And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

 

[Seeker of the Source]

. . . It cost over 100 million dollars. . . .

And consider how many orphans, widows, homeless and sick people that kind of money could have helped. Just a thought . . .

Seems many Christian ministries' priorities are a tad misplaced.

And when the Lord returns, I doubt He will say, "Ooh, nice Noah's Ark replica and what an interesting museum too! We can use all of these in the Millennial Kingdom!"

 

[Seeker of the Source]

. . .
The great deep in which is hell, it is under the earth . . .

Where is your biblical support that hell is inside the planet earth? Just curious why you think this is so . . . Thanks

A quote I offer, "However, because the Bible is unclear on where Hell is, it is just as possible that Hell could lie in a whole other plane or dimension. Ultimately though, the most important thing about Hell is not where it is or the punishment one will face when he gets there, but rather that it is ETERNAL separation from God." Is Hell in the center of the Earth? - JesusAlive.cc

 

[church mouse guy]

And consider how many orphans, widows, homeless and sick people that kind of money could have helped. Just a thought . . .

Seems many Christian ministries' priorities are a tad misplaced.

And when the Lord returns, I doubt He will say, "Ooh, nice Noah's Ark replica and what an interesting museum too! We can use all of these in the Millennial Kingdom!" View attachment 4372

Wow! I can’t believe that you wrote something like that. You sound very bitter.

 

[Scott Downey]

Where is your biblical support that hell is inside the planet earth? Just curious why you think this is so . . . Thanks

A quote I offer, "However, because the Bible is unclear on where Hell is, it is just as possible that Hell could lie in a whole other plane or dimension. Ultimately though, the most important thing about Hell is not where it is or the punishment one will face when he gets there, but rather that it is ETERNAL separation from God." Is Hell in the center of the Earth? - JesusAlive.cc

How about not inside, but underneath Earth.
Although could be in the earth, the phrasing is 'under the earth' and the great deep is scripturally under the earth.

Ephesians 4, verse 10 is describing that Jesus descended into Hell. So before Christ ascended into heaven he was crucified, died and descended into hell.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18-20, these dead spirits were in hell. Jesus went there to proclaim Himself to them.
New King James Version
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.


Isaiah 5:14
Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself And opened its mouth beyond measure; Their glory and their multitude and their pomp, And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it.

Acts 2
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’


Isaiah 38:18
For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

Isaiah 14:9
“Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.

 

[Seeker of the Source]

Wow! I can’t believe that you wrote something like that. You sound very bitter.

No one can truly know anyone else's heart state as to whether they are "bitter" or not, sir.

I am simply stating the uncomfortable facts here. And I stand 110% behind what I post here.

I actually regret blowing some much of my money for my wife and I to see The Ark Encounter. Other than actually seeing the mammoth monstrosity in all its glory, it was a huge waste of my time and it's pro-YEC propaganda show inside the Ark replica really saddened me as an OEC adherent and former Christian school science teacher.

Does the Lord Jesus really need all this "stuff" we build and plan here on the temporal earth and waste billions of dollars doing religion this way? Or does he really prefer we do true religion and take care of the needy.

Matthew 25:31-40
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, "I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’


“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’


“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.” (NIV)

Our money is best spent elsewhere on things that actually matter for eternity -- not on Christian disneylands, bigger churches, cathedrals and yet another new parsonage.

Food For The Poor | Feeding the Hungry | Charity organization

 

[Seeker of the Source]

How about not inside, but underneath Earth.
Although could be in the earth, the phrasing is 'under the earth' and the great deep is scripturally under the earth. . . .

I can believe that Old Testament and New Testament authors used phrases that showed their opinion that Hades, Sheol and Hell were "under the earth" and "below" as men of old gave it their best shot guessing where these mysterious realms existed. Still, the bible does not definitively state Hell is in or under the Earth. I believe though it is a place, a realm that God created for the Devil and his angels. And at the end, both Death and Hell will be judged and "removed" and cast into The Lake of Fire", (yet another mysterious realm of judgment).

Where these places exist is anyone's guess. I seem to remember evangelist Oliver B. Green and John R. Rice believed Hell existed inside the molten core of planet Earth.