A pastor’s qualifications:

[Salty]

DHK brought up the word Hate - as in God Hates divorce.

Is Hate a worse condition than abomination?
discuss this question on this thread.

 

[OldRegular]

God made provision for divorce in the case of adultery:

Matthew 19:9-12
9. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

 

[DHK]

God made provision for divorce in the case of adultery:

Matthew 19:9-12
9. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

First, Jesus never condoned it; in fact he condemned it, even in that passage. Read the preceding verses.
Second, I already explained that passage here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2165517&postcount=107

 

[annsni]

First, Jesus never condoned it; in fact he condemned it, even in that passage. Read the preceding verses.
Second, I already explained that passage here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2165517&postcount=107

How can you say this when Jesus Himself said "except it be for fornication"? That pretty clearly shows that Jesus does NOT condemn divorce in the case of adultery and He actually condones it.

 

[DHK]

How can you say this when Jesus Himself said "except it be for fornication"? That pretty clearly shows that Jesus does NOT condemn divorce in the case of adultery and He actually condones it.

Yes, Jesus Himself used the word "fornication," both times in the book of Matthew, to a Jewish audience, with a Jewish tradition of betrothal before marriage. Look first at the definition of "fornication." It is illicit sex before marriage as opposed to adultery illicit sex after marriage.
Now go to Matthew chapter one and study carefully why Joseph was going to "put away" or divorce Mary. They are referred to as husband and wife even though they are still in their betrothal and not formally married. That is when the "except for fornication" clause applies, as Joseph was going to use it then. But the angel told him not to divorce "his fiance" so to speak. But to go ahead and take her as wife.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.[/FONT]
--She is already referred to as wife.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:[/FONT]
--Now he takes her and formalizes the marriage. She becomes his wife. He realized from the angel that there was no fornication involved.

 

[convicted1]

DHK, you would expect a wife to stay with her husband if she was continually abused verbally and physically, if her husband slept around and flatly refused to stop doing it, took their $$$ and drank/drugged it away, therefore making their kids go hungry.

God gave us this thing routinely called 'common sense'. A wife who has been beaten within an inch of her life, had been assaulted by a hit man hired by her husband to collect her insurance policy(the same would apply to the husband here), found out her husband tried to hire a hit man to kill her...you'd expect a man or woman to stay with their spouse even after they tried to kill them...sad stance you've taken...

 

[convicted1]

There's more to this than just infidelity that is suitable to a legit divorce...


--The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it,(Ephesians 5:25 YLT)

We are commended to love our spouses. Love them so much that we're even willing to lay down our lives for them. It is in our wedding vows. If someone is not faithful to their spouse...referring to both husband and wife here...they don't love their spouse, therefore, breaking their wedding vows and their covenant of marriage...

--And to the rest I speak -- not the Lord -- if any brother hath a wife unbelieving, and she is pleased to dwell with him, let him not send her away; and a woman who hath a husband unbelieving, and he is pleased to dwell with her, let her not send him away; for the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified in the wife, and the unbelieving wife hath been sanctified in the husband; otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. And, if the unbelieving doth separate himself -- let him separate himself: the brother or the sister is not under servitude in such [cases], and in peace hath God called us;(1 Cor. 7:12-15 YLT)

Here Paul is addressing saved people and not the lost. If one of them in the marriage is saved and the other isn't it, they have no right to put them away/divorce them, if they're happily married to them. If that unbelieving person leaves, they do so of their own accord. That saved person isn't held accountable and is free to remarry, but only in the Lord...

 

[DHK]

DHK, you would expect a wife to stay with her husband if she was continually abused verbally and physically, if her husband slept around and flatly refused to stop doing it, took their $$$ and drank/drugged it away, therefore making their kids go hungry.

God gave us this thing routinely called 'common sense'. A wife who has been beaten within an inch of her life, had been assaulted by a hit man hired by her husband to collect her insurance policy(the same would apply to the husband here), found out her husband tried to hire a hit man to kill her...you'd expect a man or woman to stay with their spouse even after they tried to kill them...sad stance you've taken...

I wouldn't expect a wife to stay with an abusive husband as you described.
Neither would I expect the wife to divorce him; separate from him, yes. Divorce, no.

 

[convicted1]

I wouldn't expect a wife to stay with an abusive husband as you described.
Neither would I expect the wife to divorce him; separate from him, yes. Divorce, no.

So then she'd have to live alone the rest of her life and never remarry because her husband repeatedly beat the snot out of her. Wonderful!!!

 

[DHK]

There's more to this than just infidelity that is suitable to a legit divorce...


--The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it,(Ephesians 5:25 YLT)

We are commended to love our spouses. Love them so much that we're even willing to lay down our lives for them. It is in our wedding vows. If someone is not faithful to their spouse...referring to both husband and wife here...they don't love their spouse, therefore, breaking their wedding vows and their covenant of marriage...

--And to the rest I speak -- not the Lord -- if any brother hath a wife unbelieving, and she is pleased to dwell with him, let him not send her away; and a woman who hath a husband unbelieving, and he is pleased to dwell with her, let her not send him away; for the unbelieving husband hath been sanctified in the wife, and the unbelieving wife hath been sanctified in the husband; otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. And, if the unbelieving doth separate himself -- let him separate himself: the brother or the sister is not under servitude in such [cases], and in peace hath God called us;(1 Cor. 7:12-15 YLT)

Here Paul is addressing saved people and not the lost. If one of them in the marriage is saved and the other isn't it, they have no right to put them away/divorce them, if they're happily married to them. If that unbelieving person leaves, they do so of their own accord. That saved person isn't held accountable and is free to remarry, but only in the Lord...

It says nothing of the sort.
If the unbelieving doth separate himself--let him separate himself.
Live in separation.
There is not one word of divorce in this passage. That is eisigeses; the greatest possible inferences that one could possibly make. No divorce is mentioned. No possible suggestion of remarriage is mentioned. Other passages rule out that completely.
"The brother or sister is not under servitude (or bondage)..."
Bondage to what? To dwell under the house of an unsaved or abusive husband, or to stay with an unsaved husband that is determined to leave the marriage relationship. What else can she do (but her best to keep it together).

 

[DHK]

So then she'd have to live alone the rest of her life and never remarry because her husband repeatedly beat the snot out of her. Wonderful!!!

A lot of women do. A lot of widows never remarry. There are many single women.
Marriage is a sacred union. One doesn't walk into it with their eyes closed. The fault doesn't lie 100% with the husband. I am convinced of that.

 

[Sapper Woody]

So then she'd have to live alone the rest of her life and never remarry because her husband repeatedly beat the snot out of her. Wonderful!!!

As sad as this is, and hopefully this comes out as gracefully as I mean it, she made the choice to marry him. If she has to live alone the rest of her life, it's not because he beat her; it's because she made a poor choice in one of the biggest decisions in her life.

Now, personally, I hold to that divorce is OK for infidelity. I also believe that abuse is infidelity.

 

[convicted1]

As sad as this is, and hopefully this comes out as gracefully as I mean it, she made the choice to marry him. If she has to live alone the rest of her life, it's not because he beat her; it's because she made a poor choice in one of the biggest decisions in her life.

Now, personally, I hold to that divorce is OK for infidelity. I also believe that abuse is infidelity.

I agree with most of what you said here. Just like Ray Rice's wife. She has no excuses if he beats the snot out of her now. He did it and she still married him!?!?!

But many people have married their spouse only to find them different after they married them. Years ago, I dated a woman 10 years my senior. Her first marriage was that way. When they were dating he was "Prince Charming", " Price Valiant", then after they married, he did a complete 180 on her....

Now, I am not saying every divorce is biblical, but some are...

 

[convicted1]

A lot of women do. A lot of widows never remarry. There are many single women.
Marriage is a sacred union. One doesn't walk into it with their eyes closed. The fault doesn't lie 100% with the husband. I am convinced of that.

I agree that marriage is sacred, never stated otherwise. But sinners live sinful lives. You cant expect sinners to live up to the commands in the bible...Romans 8:7 and 1 Cor. 2:14...

But in divorce, you have to go in individual cases. Some divorces are biblically legit, others aren't....

 

[Salty]

So then she'd have to live alone the rest of her life and never remarry because her husband repeatedly beat the snot out of her. Wonderful!!!

Not until he remarries - as she should be in prayer for him and to always be ready for reconciliation.

 

[OldRegular]

First, Jesus never condoned it; in fact he condemned it, even in that passage. Read the preceding verses.
Second, I already explained that passage here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2165517&postcount=107

I read them. In context Jesus Christ is giving cause for divorce!

 

[OldRegular]

How can you say this when Jesus Himself said "except it be for fornication"? That pretty clearly shows that Jesus does NOT condemn divorce in the case of adultery and He actually condones it.

You understand this Scripture as I do and I believe that is the correct understanding.

 

[OldRegular]

So then she'd have to live alone the rest of her life and never remarry because her husband repeatedly beat the snot out of her. Wonderful!!!

O' Convicted1

In general I believe that the only Biblical cause for divorce is adultery. However, if a daughter of mine were being abused by her husband and I could not stop it I would advise divorce. Whether she remarried again would depend upon her.

You do make a substantial argument that physical, mental, verbal abuse is equivalent to infidelity. Certainly no husband who is a Christian and loves his wife as Jesus Christ loved the Church would mistreat his wife in this manner or in adultery.

I have already stated my views regarding actions prior to Salvation. If Salvation does not remove the guilt of all past sins how can it be Salvation?

 

[annsni]

Yes, Jesus Himself used the word "fornication," both times in the book of Matthew, to a Jewish audience, with a Jewish tradition of betrothal before marriage. Look first at the definition of "fornication." It is illicit sex before marriage as opposed to adultery illicit sex after marriage.
Now go to Matthew chapter one and study carefully why Joseph was going to "put away" or divorce Mary. They are referred to as husband and wife even though they are still in their betrothal and not formally married. That is when the "except for fornication" clause applies, as Joseph was going to use it then. But the angel told him not to divorce "his fiance" so to speak. But to go ahead and take her as wife.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.[/FONT]
--She is already referred to as wife.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:[/FONT]
--Now he takes her and formalizes the marriage. She becomes his wife. He realized from the angel that there was no fornication involved.

Umm - they were married. "take unto thee" meant to have relations with her. If they had to get a divorce, in that culture they were bound. It doesn't matter if they had sex or not - they were married.

 

[convicted1]

Not until he remarries - as she should be in prayer for him and to always be ready for reconciliation.

There was a woman who tried to stay with her husband and was nearly decapitated....

Nicole Brown Simpson ring a bell? Granted, she had her failings, too. But she strung O.J. along...and O.J. was reportedly abusive...