A pedophile among us

[annsni]

HP If God accepts him as he is, why are you so afraid of one that you say God accepts? Who knows, you or your children may be rooming with him for eternity if you are correct in your thinking.

God doesn't accept him as he is. He saves him and regenerates him so that he can change. If this man continues in his sin, never changing, I would seriously question whether he was indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

I don't know where you think that God accepts him as he is. Are you saying that a sinner doesn't need to change? That God doesn't say "Go and sin no more"?

 

[annsni]

Ann, if God has declared such a one as clean, who are you not to accept such a one with open arms, showing and treating your brother nothing but Christian love?

1 Corinthians 5.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What about it Ann?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I wondered about this thread at first, but it might prove to be a great teaching tool.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

One of the biggest lies ever foisted upon the Church, is the false notion that death is the sanctifier of sinning believers. Death is no sanctifier at all. It is the last enemy.

 

[convicted1]

A pedophile can absolutely be a believer - one who needs to work on their sin - but there is no way that I would allow him near my children. I also would not sit an alcoholic in a bar or a thief next to a stack of iPhones. It's just common sense.

Huh? A person can be a CHRISTian and a pedophile simultaenously? Huh?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Ann, if God has declared such a one as clean, who are you not to accept such a one with open arms, showing and treating your brother nothing but Christian love?

We can treat him as a brother in Christ, but that doesn't mean we trust the person with the care of our children. Probably the law demands that he stay away from children. Probably the church/camp insurance policy demands that background checks be made (ours does).

I can accept that a Madoff can be saved (I have no idea), but that doesn't mean I am going to make him the church treasurer or the chair of a fund raising group. Sins have consequences.

 

[Tom Bryant]

John....this guy had 2 prior convictions for molestation & was out on parole. The negligence by this church has children who can no longer function as human beings..... this has led to tragic consequences for those boys.

After seeing this, Im done with church. There is such bitterness in me that I can hardly contain myself. This must be Gods way of eliminating a bad church from carrying on....that is the one blessing. With the lawsuits, the press being all over it, a grand jury inquisition, this should close the place up good & proper. THANK GOD!

EW&F, I love you friend, but show some maturity. The church is Christ's body. If you allow bitterness to control you, this pervert will have not only destroyed those children and family, he will also have destroyed your spiritual walk.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The story says nothing about prior convictions or parole.

Am I missing something?

John

YES.... that was only an introductory article John. There is much more to this & every day kids who have been abused are coming forward. The real tragedy is to these children's psyches. Many of those in the church were blindly trustful .... they checked their minds off at the door & allowed this Pedophile enterance to the kids lives without ever asking any questions. All the while being very legalistic. I know them well....my people are from there & so I saw them 1st hand.
.... "Cut your hair, wear a suit & tie, wear a dress, no exposed toes, God forbid you even speak to a guy from another church, blah blah blah but with all these guarded religious / legalistic principles, they could not & would not guard the kids from wanton sexual deviants. I know one young man who sits in a room all day long.....now so fearful of the world he cannot go out. His life is in ruins.

And Ive been through this before with the Roman Catholics. Take a look on line at the case history of the St. Josephs RC Church in Mendham NJ several years ago. Some of those kids killed themselves. NO, Im adverse to this any more & if it were my son involved in all this, well lets say that that pedophile is much safer in prison than on the street.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EW&F, I love you friend, but show some maturity. The church is Christ's body. If you allow bitterness to control you, this pervert will have not only destroyed those children and family, he will also have destroyed your spiritual walk.

With all do respect Tom, my spiritual walk needed a heavy dose of reality in order that I am not duped by con artists & Mountbanks. I will be on my guard now more than I have ever been. My trust is in Christ, not man.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Huh? A person can be a CHRISTian and a pedophile simultaenously? Huh?

NO because if he did he would recognize he crucifies Christ (who he is supposed to love above all things) by that accursed sin of his. A Christian is a changed person.....he no longer wishes to sin. This pedophile however, premeditatedly hunted out these kids....NOT CHRISTIAN BEHAVIOR.

We have too many of the religious out there condoning sinful behavior rather than saving people. A saved person would not conduct himself thus.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What is all this condemnation about a pedophile? What makes this sin anymore heinous or carry any greater penalty than any other sin according to so many I listen to on this list? We have preachers and or missionaries on this list daily that testify to sinning daily. What is more heinous about being a pedophile, then whatever sins these preachers are guilty of? Surely we would not want to go down the path of cardinal sins versus venial sins would we?

If in fact this man was ever born again, and chances are being in a church he well may have been, what difference in eternity does it make? If preachers can commit sin without incurring eternal punishment for their daily sins, who on the list will be the first one to cast a stone at this pedophile? Upon what grounds do you find these acts heinous? Why should this sin be any more heinous than any other sin if to commit one sin is to be guilty of all sin, and more than one preacher on this list openly admits to sinning everyday, some in thought, word, and deed? If the preachers can sin with impunity as far as any eternal judgment goes, why worry about a pedophile? Again, upon what basis do you find this individual guilty of anything more heinous than any other sin committed daily by the preachers evidently in good standing on this list?

Honest to God you ask some of the most naive & stupidest questions Ive ever heard. Take some time out of your day today & google case studies of Pedophiles & then come back to me. You might be surprised at your findings.

Why worry about the pedophile? Because he ruins lives....kids lives. I would agree that condoning a sinful pastors life is not appropriate behavior either. Condoning anyones sinful life is not the mark of a true Christian.

I see it as a call to arms....to define yourself as a serious Christian who knows the weight of sin & what consequences it has.......or your NOT a Christian.....you decide.

 

[gb93433]

How about you Gb? How is your integrity running? Do you testify to sinning everyday? If so, and if it is true as DHK has claimed that if one does not testify to having sin in their lives they are a heretic, I am curious as to what you and others might have to say for your testimonies.

The person who always tells the truth does not have to worry about what he said last. The person who lives that kind of life would not want to do anything that would tarnish that in his life. You forgot someone other than the preacher. What message is being sent to the children? Is the message that any sin is okay as long as the preacher did his time. He can never do enough time to pay for the wrong he has already done to the victims. In fact they are still paying. Why doesn't he go to the prisons or among those who are or have been criminals and do ministry there?

The children were not welcome so what message did they hear from the preacher? The church? "I am not welcome"? "I am not important?" What did Jesus teach about children and the mill stone?

Pastors and preachers are to meet certain qualifications and that is because they are teachers, and teachers are held to a higher standard. It has absolutely nothing to do with the modern image of a good orator as a preacher but godliness in action as an example to the flock. Does one have to put his hand in the fire to know it is hot? That particular orator failed to have wisdom (regarding sexual sin) and therefor failed as a pastor and preacher. Sexual sin is noted in scripture as not just typical sin.

Shouldn't churches have pastors who rise to the highest level in their example of godliness? Scripture says they are to be an example to the flock. How is a pedophile an example to the flock?

Sometime back I went to a bank in the city and asked to borrow some money to buy a home. The man I was talking to asked me how I came to the city. Then when he ran my credit report he told me that he had never seen anyone with a higher score. Imagine how he felt and how I felt when he told me that news. The next time I came in to borrow some money for another home, within 15 minutes I had a letter faxed to the realtor. I use a Christian realtor who has lived in the city for 55 years who has an outstanding reputation of honesty and integrity. I do that because I want to be associated with someone who is honest. The man at the bank is not a Christian, but he knows I am and he knows what I am like from a financial standpoint. A few weeks ago he told me about a way I could save money when borrowing. He was helping me financially.

I can certainly tell you from a pastor's point of view what it is like to have leaders in a church who have a bad reputation because of their actions in the community. Some I met would not come to church because of how they were wronged and others because of what they heard. Those kind of people bring condemnation on the church.

 

[Tom Bryant]

With all do respect Tom, my spiritual walk needed a heavy dose of reality in order that I am not duped by con artists & Mountbanks. I will be on my guard now more than I have ever been. My trust is in Christ, not man.

I am not talking about not needing a heavy dose of reality. Pastoring a church bring reality. I am talking about letting this pervert (and the naive, foolish people in this thread who would act as if his acts are not heinous and perverted) destroy how God wants to use you in a local church.

The church didn't do this. A perverted, unbeliever did. The group enabled him. The consequences ought to be harsh and to the full extent of the law for both the perpetrator and the group.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: God doesn't accept him as he is. He saves him and regenerates him so that he can change. If this man continues in his sin, never changing, I would seriously question whether he was indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

I don't know where you think that God accepts him as he is. Are you saying that a sinner doesn't need to change? That God doesn't say "Go and sin no more"?

HP: You make no sense. If a man becomes a believer, he is accepted by God as a believer. It is those that hold to OSAS, like yourself, that hold the position that once accepted always accepted. Now you try to have it both ways. You tell us the change comes SUBSEQUENT to salvation, yet you contradict yourself when you say IF one does not change you would question whether he was indwelt with the Holy Spirit. If you are saved apart from change, what would it matter as far as your salvation is concerned whether you subsequently change or not? If you are saved as a sinner, why cannot you remain as a saved sinner? If you are save apart from change, why will God not keep you apart from change? Will He finally reject one that he has saved?

Ann, you have created a real problem with your understanding of whgat salvation entails, When you place all change subsequent to salvation, being born again and yet still the sinner you have always been, you have no more right to even think for a minute that God will ever reject anyone once born because they did not further change subsequent to salvation if you hold to OSAS. You need to take your notions of salvation back to the drawing board and develop a salvation that makes sense and is at least somewhat consistent.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What is all this condemnation about a pedophile? What makes this sin anymore heinous or carry any greater penalty than any other sin according to so many I listen to on this list? We have preachers and or missionaries on this list daily that testify to sinning daily. What is more heinous about being a pedophile, then whatever sins these preachers are guilty of? Surely we would not want to go down the path of cardinal sins versus venial sins would we?

If in fact this man was ever born again, and chances are being in a church he well may have been, what difference in eternity does it make? If preachers can commit sin without incurring eternal punishment for their daily sins, who on the list will be the first one to cast a stone at this pedophile? Upon what grounds do you find these acts heinous? Why should this sin be any more heinous than any other sin if to commit one sin is to be guilty of all sin, and more than one preacher on this list openly admits to sinning everyday, some in thought, word, and deed? If the preachers can sin with impunity as far as any eternal judgment goes, why worry about a pedophile? Again, upon what basis do you find this individual guilty of anything more heinous than any other sin committed daily by the preachers evidently in good standing on this list?

Your point is taken in that most denominations claim that no sin is greater than any other as they all seperate us from God. Being a Pedeophile seperates as much as a white lie. However that being said Doesn't Jesus say

42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.

Personally, I believe some sins are worse than others and Pedeophile is up among the worst along with murder and probably above murder because of the verse I just quoted. I believe people who commit these acts have a mental disorder which cannot be cured and need to be not only seperated from the community but constant medical attention. They are seriously sick and cannot be in the same catagory with "average" sinners. Their place is with the serial killers, and the mentally insane. The only help for them is a miraculous healing Jesus casting out the demons in order to bring such a one back into the fold. Which can be done in God's power but once in the fold special care must be taken.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tom Bryant: We can treat him as a brother in Christ, but that doesn't mean we trust the person with the care of our children. Probably the law demands that he stay away from children. Probably the church/camp insurance policy demands that background checks be made (ours does).

I can accept that a Madoff can be saved (I have no idea), but that doesn't mean I am going to make him the church treasurer or the chair of a fund raising group. Sins have consequences.

HP: Tom, if one does not repent for their known sins before they are saved, they will not be born again. You are right in that we should not lay hands on anyone quickly. Caution is always in order to see if one has sincerely repented of their sins and if one is to be trusted. Even then if one has been prone to some sin, it would be in keeping with repentance not to place oneself in any position of temptation to sin again. If one was a former pedophile, it would clear to me that is such a one was born again, they would voluntarily refrain from taking a position of a caretaker of children. This idea that Ann suggests that we are saved in our sins and then subsequent to salvation God begins His work in us, is simply not the case. If we have no change of heart towards our sin ANTECEDENT to salvation, as testified to by sincere repentance, no salvation takes place.

If we fall back prey to sin and refuse to walk in obedience, such a one has no solid hope of eternal life with God regardless of what one might think has happened to them in the past. One can indeed make shipwreck of the faith and be lost in the end.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gb: I can certainly tell you from a pastor's point of view what it is like to have leaders in a church who have a bad reputation because of their actions in the community. Some I met would not come to church because of how they were wronged and others because of what they heard. Those kind of people bring condemnation on the church.

HP: I certainly appreciate the spirit of your response.:thumbs:

God help us a believers to walk with a different testimony that that of a normal sinner. I cannot for a minute see why any pastor would ever desire the testimony they sin every day. That is so generic a sinners statement, that one could be steeped in any heinous sin and still have that testimony.

I desire a different testimony for myself as a believer and as a spiritual leader, just as you have illustrated you do as well. If we are not walking a life far removed from that which we did as unbelievers, i.e., sinning every day in thought word and deed, how can we say we love God? God help us to walk clean and pure, on the inside as well as on the outside, so that it can be said of us by God Himself, there walks a man that truly loves and obeys Me! God has no blinders on as to how we are walking, and everyone that takes the name of Christ aught to walk even as He walked.

God, help us to walk this day in love with you in holiness and uprightness of heart and life!

 

[Tom Bryant]

HP: Tom, if one does not repent for their known sins before they are saved, they will not be born again. You are right in that we should not lay hands on anyone quickly. Caution is always in order to see if one has sincerely repented of their sins and if one is to be trusted. Even then if one has been prone to some sin, it would be in keeping with repentance not to place oneself in any position of temptation to sin again. If one was a former pedophile, it would clear to me that is such a one was born again, they would voluntarily refrain from taking a position of a caretaker of children. This idea that Ann suggests that we are saved in our sins and then subsequent to salvation God begins His work in us, is simply not the case. If we have no change of heart towards our sin ANTECEDENT to salvation, as testified to by sincere repentance, no salvation takes place.

If we fall back prey to sin and refuse to walk in obedience, such a one has no solid hope of eternal life with God regardless of what one might think has happened to them in the past. One can indeed make shipwreck of the faith and be lost in the end.

HP:

Now I understand what you are saying. You're still very wrong and naive. Start counseling those who have been the prey of people like this pervert. You will soon understand that it is the church's and, by the way, the leaders of the churches, responsibility to protect the flock God has given them. And this group did nothing to protect the children that were given to their care.

 

[annsni]

Huh? A person can be a CHRISTian and a pedophile simultaenously? Huh?

I do not believe that pedophilia is the unforgiveable sin and I believe that someone who is a pedophile ends up not only having a behavior that is wrong but also ends up rewiring their brain to desire this so much. If they were to come to Christ, I don't believe that always will this desire go away the second they are saved but instead it could very well be a struggle for the rest of their lives. It's no different from someone who was a homosexual, who was into porn, or who was an alcoholic or drug abuser. They will struggle with this forever most likely. Yes, some are delivered but some are not.

So yes, I believe one can be both but it would not be one who is actively pursuing the pedophilia as a practice. I do believe that the Spirit will be doing a work in them to convict them of that sin and to help them fight it - but it will most likely always be there in them as a struggle to overcome. Eventually the struggle will most likely be very small as he overcomes the sin but I wonder if it will ever fully be gone.