A Penal Substitution Theory Interpretation

[JonC]

What is Matthew 25:41 for?

The Day of Judgment.

It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

The wicked will face damnation. They will be cast into the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his angles.

Note - the wicked are punished . . . Not their actions but the actual people.

 

[37818]

The Day of Judgment.

It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

The wicked will face damnation. They will be cast into the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his angles.

Matthew 25:31–40 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

And then we have Romans 3:23-26.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The soul who sins shall die, unless that person's sin is transferred to an animal, and under the New Covenant to the Righteous One.

The righteousness of the Righteous One shall be upon the wicked and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon the Righteous One.

Jon, it is very clear from your MANY posts on "Penal Substitution", that you are yourself not clear on what the Bible says! It looks like you have to try to convince yourself, that this is not taught in the Bible, even though no one, including you, has ever been able to show that, this Great Doctrine, is unbiblical!

 

[JonC]

And then we have Romans 3:23-26.

Exactly. This was the passage I was primarily focusing on.

Biblical Atonement is not God punishing sins but God offering His Son as a propitiation (and Christ laying down His life) so that in Him we escape the wrath to come (as you pointed out previously, not wrath against sinful acts but wrath against the wicked when God separated nations as a man separates goats and sheep).

The Atonement contains penal and substitutionary aspects, but the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is a false teaching based on a flawed 16th century judicial philosophy.

Yet some here will insist God must punish sins apart from punishing the transgressor in order to satisfy the demands of justice. And they cannot explain why, they just accept it because if they do not their theory fails.

Penal Substitution Theory was accepted during the 16th and 17 centuries because the humanistic judicial philosophy was accepted to some degree. But if we look at it now it is akin to looking at the idea God paid a ransom to Satan. Both ideas had widespread acceptance at one time, but looking back it is easy to see the flaws.

 

[JonC]

Jon, it is very clear from your MANY posts on "Penal Substitution", that you are yourself not clear on what the Bible says! It looks like you have to try to convince yourself, that this is not taught in the Bible, even though no one, including you, has ever been able to show that, this Great Doctrine, is unbiblical!

I am very clear on what the Bible says (and what it does not say). My goal is to get others to reexamine their views against Scripture. Scripture (what is written) is the standard I try to apply at least to vital doctrines like this one. There is so much you miss clinging to the theory.

The problem with Penal Substitution Theory is it is not in the Bible. I could say Jesus flew on an airplane and healed thousands by flying over. By your standard that would not be unbilical.

It is unbilical because Scripture is the standard by which we test doctrine.

It is unbilical because Scripture presents God's wrath as abiding on the wicked, not actions.

It is unbilical because sins cannot be transfered.

It is unbilical because it denied the forgiveness of sins.

It is unbilical because it assumes a pagan view of sacrifice.

It is unbilical because it minimizes God and elevates human sin.

And it is unbilical because its disciples (including you) are unable to account for the philosophy on which it stands.

Why do you believe in order to forgive a sinner God must punish sinful acts even if it is not punishing the transgressor?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God does not justify the wicked or the ungodly.

Romans 4:5. 'But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.'
Do you believe on Him who justifies the ungodly? I hope so.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Isaiah 53:10). It took us a long time to drag out of you that this verse is in the Bible, but there it is, proud and unapologetic.

This is a false accusation on your part. I understand that we disagree, but you are compromising your integrity with your words here, which is sad as you seem to be an otherwise godly man.

But I will use this as an example of my first comment.

You sinned by claiming it took a long time for me to recognize the passage (a passage which I have quoted on this forum long before I encountered you) is in the Bible. That is a sin.

So you sinned....but does that make you wicked? No. You are in Christ, you simple stumbled and lost your integrity on one statement.

I am the chief of sinners, but not in this respect. You denied absolutely that God was pleased to bruise the Son, even when the verse was pointed out to you. I suppose that I shall have to dredge the details up from the archives, but your memory is very selective if you do not remember it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am very clear on what the Bible says (and what it does not say). My goal is to get others to reexamine their views against Scripture. Scripture (what is written) is the standard I try to apply at least to vital doctrines like this one. There is so much you miss clinging to the theory.

The problem with Penal Substitution Theory is it is not in the Bible. I could say Jesus flew on an airplane and healed thousands by flying over. By your standard that would not be unbilical [sic].

It is unbilical [sic] because Scripture is the standard by which we test doctrine.

It is unbilical [sic] because Scripture presents God's wrath as abiding on the wicked, not actions.

It is unbilical [sic] because sins cannot be transfered [sic].

It is unbilical [sic] because it denied the forgiveness of sins.

It is unbilical [sic] because it assumes a pagan view of sacrifice.

It is unbilical [sic] because it minimizes God and elevates human sin.

And it is unbilical [sic] because its disciples (including you) are unable to account for the philosophy on which it stands.

Why do you believe in order to forgive a sinner God must punish sinful acts even if it is not punishing the transgressor?

This is a remarkable post. It is wrong on just about every single thing it affirms (save that Scripture is the standard by which we test doctrine), and refutes its own opening sentence.
However, I am sure that @SavedByGrace is well able to answer the post, and will wait for him before doing so myself.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That is why I have asked @Martin Marprelate , @Revmitchell and @JesusFan why God has to punish sinful actions even if this is not punishing the actual transgressor.

The attempt to drive a wedge between sins and sinners is false exegesis. Look at Psalms 4:4-5.
'You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, nor shall evil dwell with You.' Here are the sins.
'The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.' And here are the sinners. God hates sins and those who commit them.
Transgressors are punished in the atonement, but those who are given to Christ to redeem are punished in Him. Christ is federally joined to His people as I explained above (post #10). Here you are again.

Who are those ‘in Christ’? Those He came to save; those who were given to Him by the Father before time began. “Christ came not to strangers but to brethren (Hebrews 2:11-13). He came here not to procure a people for Himself, but to secure a people already His” (A.W. Pink). There are many supporting texts for this, e.g. Matthew 1:21; John 6:39; 10:27-29; 17:2, 6; Ephesians 1:4. Christ is united federally to His people. They are ‘chosen in Christ’ (Ephesians 1:4), ‘Created in Christ’ (Ephesians 2:10); ‘circumcised in Him’ (Colossians 2:11) and ‘made the righteousness of God in Him' (2 Corinthians 5:21). But as Surety, the Lord Jesus must also pay the debts (transgressions: see Matthew 6:12) of His people, and if they are to be freed from their debt, He must pay the very last penny (Matthew 5:26).
I can expand on this if required.

 

[37818]

@ JonC,
Your pointing out Proverbs 17:15 is genius, "He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.". How that any kind of PS is something which sinful man can never do and be justified before our Holy and Righteous God. It being something only our infinity good God could do. Romans 3:23-26. James 1:13, ". . . for God cannot be tempted with evil, . . . ."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@ JonC,
Your pointing out Proverbs 17:15 is genius, "He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.". How that any kind of PS is something which sinful man can never do and be justified before our Holy and Righteous God. It being something only our infinity good God could do. Romans 3:23-26. James 1:13, ". . . for God cannot be tempted with evil, . . . ."

And yet........
God does justify the ungodly (Romans 4:5), and it did please God to crush the sinless Christ, putting Him to grief (Isaiah 53:10).
What we have to do is to work out how He can do that and still be perfectly righteous.

 

[37818]

And yet........
God does justify the ungodly (Romans 4:5), and it did please God to crush the sinless Christ, putting Him to grief (Isaiah 53:10).
What we have to do is to work out how He can do that and still be perfectly righteous.

God can do whatever His infinite goodness requires and allows Himself to do according to His purpose being God.

 

[Van]

Since mankind is made sinners, we are all in an unholy sinful state, even before we have done anything good or bad. And in this unholy state, we are separated from God and can do nothing to overcome our unholiness and become united with God. The consequence of our being made a sinner, and the consequence of our volitional sins, if we live long enough to commit them must be overcome if we are to be united with God. Since all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags to God, someone else must act to overcome the consequence of being in an unholy and sinful separated state.

Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (humanity, one sinner at a time). That which God holds against us, is what is taken out of the way, being nailed to the cross. Thus those who "receive the reconciliation" have the consequence of being in a sinful state taken away. So even though Christ died as a ransom for all humanity, making salvation available to all, only those God chooses and places into Christ spiritually undergo the circumcision of Christ where the consequence of being in a sinful state is removed.

Lets call this biblical doctrine Substitutionary Reconciliation.

 

[JonC]

Romans 4:5. 'But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.'
Do you believe on Him who justifies the ungodly? I hope so.

We can play word games and "gotcha" all day long but to what end?

The passage does s speaking of works vs faith in terms of justification.

Romans 4:5–6 to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

I am speaking of "the wrath to come". This is on the wicked and ungodly.

At Judgment, if you are wicked then you will be cast I to the lake for fire.

Or to play your game -. you believe Christians are wicked and ungodly...that the gospel is benign and God powerless???

 

[JonC]

God can do whatever His infinite goodness requires and allows Himself to do according to His purpose being God.

I agree.

@Martin Marprelate is just playing a word game here. He is fully aware that I believe God recreated the wicked into a new, and not wicked, recreation via a new birth.

He is doing what I have said he would do in order to avoid explaining his presuppositions.

 

[JonC]

However, I am sure that @SavedByGrace is well able to answer the post, and will wait for him before doing so myself.

Why?

I have asked you to explain why in order to forgive God has to punish sinful actions even if this is not punishing the transgressor for a decade and you still run away as fast as you can. Now you are using other people to hide your escape.

 

[JonC]

The attempt to drive a wedge between sins and sinners is false exegesis. Look at Psalms 4:4-5.
'You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, nor shall evil dwell with You.' Here are the sins.
'The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.' And here are the sinners. God hates sins and those who commit them.
Transgressors are punished in the atonement, but those who are given to Christ to redeem are punished in Him. Christ is federally joined to His people as I explained above (post #10). Here you are again.

Who are those ‘in Christ’? Those He came to save; those who were given to Him by the Father before time began. “Christ came not to strangers but to brethren (Hebrews 2:11-13). He came here not to procure a people for Himself, but to secure a people already His” (A.W. Pink). There are many supporting texts for this, e.g. Matthew 1:21; John 6:39; 10:27-29; 17:2, 6; Ephesians 1:4. Christ is united federally to His people. They are ‘chosen in Christ’ (Ephesians 1:4), ‘Created in Christ’ (Ephesians 2:10); ‘circumcised in Him’ (Colossians 2:11) and ‘made the righteousness of God in Him' (2 Corinthians 5:21). But as Surety, the Lord Jesus must also pay the debts (transgressions: see Matthew 6:12) of His people, and if they are to be freed from their debt, He must pay the very last penny (Matthew 5:26).
I can expand on this if required.

I am not trying to drive a wedge between sinners and their sin....quite the opposite.

I am saying sins are not things to be transferred, that God punishing sin IS God punishing the one who sinned. These CANNOT be separated.

So explain why, to forgive men, God had to punish the sins of men without actually punishing the men who sinned.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God can do whatever His infinite goodness requires and allows Himself to do according to His purpose being God.

There are one or two things that apparently God cannot do. He cannot lie (Titus 1:2) and He cannot deny Himself 2 Timothy 2:13).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I am not trying to drive a wedge between sinners and their sin....quite the opposite.

I am saying sins are not things to be transferred, that God punishing sin IS God punishing the one who sinned. These CANNOT be separated.

So explain why, to forgive men, God had to punish the sins of men without actually punishing the men who sinned.

This is a very strange question. Because of John 3:16 and 2 Corinthians 5:21. If God was happy simply to forgive men their sins, then Christ could have stayed at home. But God is just and God is holy, and He cannot deny Himself. Therefore all the sins of His people were put upon the Lord Jesus and He has paid the penalty for them in full. His perfect righteousness is credited to those who trust in Him so that God sees no sin in them, hence no condemnation (Romans 8:1) and no punishment.
.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Why?

I have asked you to explain why in order to forgive God has to punish sinful actions even if this is not punishing the transgressor for a decade and you still run away as fast as you can. Now you are using other people to hide your escape.

I have explained that to you times without number. You just don't pay any attention. I have answered you again in Post #39 above.
I think @SavedByGrace is perfectly able to refute your post #25 without any help from me, but if doesn't answer your post tomorrow, I shall take great pleasure in refuting it line by line as it deserves.