37818
Well-Known Member
Well. What needs to be done is patiently show each false claim is not what any Scripture actually says. The Biblical distinctions need to be explicitly made. What is Biblical PS and what is not.
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A Penal Substitution Theory Interpretation
- Thread starter JonC
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I agree that it is important to examine Scripture to see what is taught. But with Penal Substitution Theory it is the responsibility of it's adherents to prove it correct.
Start here -
Are there any passages that state God cannot forgive sins (that God can I only forgive sinners based on their sins have been punished)?
If not, then the theory is unbilical. If so, provide the passage and we can move on to the next problem.
37818
Well-Known Member
That is backwards. The genuine needs to be taught so the counterfeit is plainly recognize as such.
No. It is always up to those who present a theory to disprove the theory....NEVER the other way around.
If one cannot provide a passage stating that state God cannot forgive sins (that God can I only forgive sinners based on their sins have been punished) then they should not believe it.
Why believe the doctrine of man when we have God's Word?
There are NO verses in the bible that state that God can just forgive sinners due to Him wanting to do such, or just due to them repenting! There still must be someone to atone and pay for those sins in order to provide God the basis to be able to freely justifiy!
37818
Well-Known Member
Why merited forgiveness? Mark 11:25-26, ". . . And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. . . ." Which is in contrast to unmerited forgiveness under the New Covenant, Hebrews 8:8-12, ". . . and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. . . ."
Do you understand that the New Covenant is a Will, that is specific only to those who receive their inheritance? The names of the recipients are written down (before the foundation of the world) and only these people receive the New Covenant. All others die in unforgiven sin, with no atonement made for them. Keep reading Hebrews. Then follow all the quotes from the Old Covenant so you grasp the particular nature of forgiveness within a Covenant.
The New Covenant is Jesus came to fulfill all the law and the prophets. In that, He made unnecessary the shadow of what was to come. He made clear the mystery of the gospel of which He is the fulfillment. That being His death, burial, and resurrection.
The New Covenant is a Will that established the persons who get an inheritance. When Jesus died, the New Covenant was invoked.
This is clearly laid out in Hebrews 9:15-17.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
The New Covenant is particular to those whose names are written into the Will and thus receive an inheritance.
37818
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2:12-13 explains this to the non Jewish believers, ". . . That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . ."
Indeed, and that is why Psa can also be called particular redemption!
37818
Well-Known Member
The particular redemption is the purpose
of the general redemption. And the purpose of the general redemption is to bring about the particular redemptions. You cannot have one without the other. Without the general redemption no lost persons have any grounds to know Christ died for them to believe He did.
Jesus died for the behalf of all those intended to be saved !
We need to read Ephesians 2:11-22. In so doing we see that those who are written in the Will (New Covenant) are from every nation, tribe, and tongue. There is no dividing wall.
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
37818
Well-Known Member
He died for everyone in order to save those whom He indends to save. Otherwise they will have no grounds to believe to be saved.
Before God saves them...they have no grounds to believe, which is why they thought it foolishness until God saved them.
Salvation is 100% of God and 0% of man.
37818
Well-Known Member
Yes God solely does the saving of those who believe Christ died died for them. If one does not know Christ died for one's sins there is no good news to believe.
If you aren't saved, how do you believe you're saved? God must first save you before you can believe you are saved.
You won't believe you are saved until God actually saved you.
I'm not so sure. Matthew 7 seems to leave the possibility that many will believe they are saved but are not.
Of course they think they are saved. They think they were the ones who made the choice...
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