A Penal Substitution Theory Interpretation

[JonC]

Of course they think they are saved. They think they were the ones who made the choice...

No. That is adding to Scripture. Since they offered works, it could be that they thought they earned salvation.

 

[AustinC]

No. That is adding to Scripture. Since they offered works, it could be that they thought they earned salvation.

They thought wrong.

 

[JonC]

They thought wrong.

I agree.

 

[37818]

If you aren't saved, how do you believe you're saved? God must first save you before you can believe you are saved.

You won't believe you are saved until God actually saved you.

False. I was saved per God's word after I believed. Romans 10:13

This notion of being saved before believing is not according to God's word.

 

[AustinC]

False. I was saved per God's word after I believed. Romans 10:13

This notion of being saved before believing is not according to God's word.

You were saved by God's grace and you believed. Ephesians 2:1-9.
Romans 10 agrees with me as does all of scripture.
Wrap your head around God as a Covenant making God. If you miss that, you will miss the fact that God chose you before the foundation of the world.

Read the whole and note how the passage supports what I have said.

Romans 10:6-20

But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

 

[Silverhair]

Before God saves them...they have no grounds to believe, which is why they thought it foolishness until God saved them.
Salvation is 100% of God and 0% of man.

So if they are saved why is it necessary for them to believe? You are putting the cart before the horse. You just can't help yourself can you? You just can not accept what the scripture says:
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You claim to trust what the bible says then perhaps it is time that you start doing just that. You contradict the text and claim your right. Time to climb down of that high horse you think your on.

 

[AustinC]

So if they are saved why is it necessary for them to believe? You are putting the cart before the horse. You just can't help yourself can you? You just can not accept what the scripture says:
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You claim to trust what the bible says then perhaps it is time that you start doing just that. You contradict the text and claim your right. Time to climb down of that high horse you think your on.

Belief is one evidence of their salvation.

Why is it that you honor humans, and deny God as Sovereign?

 

[Silverhair]

Belief is one evidence of their salvation.

Why is it that you honor humans, and deny God as Sovereign?

Our sovereign God via His inspired word says we are saved because we believe yet you deny this and hold to your own errant view. So who really sees God as sovereign? Why do you continue to deny the clear text of scripture? You are trying to put yourself over God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree that it is important to examine Scripture to see what is taught. But with Penal Substitution Theory it is the responsibility of it's adherents to prove it correct.

Start here -

Are there any passages that state God cannot forgive sins (that God can I only forgive sinners based on their sins have been punished)?

If not, then the theory is unbilical. If so, provide the passage and we can move on to the next problem.

I'm still involved with church and family business for a few more days, but there's just time for a quick post.
I have nothing to do with any 'penal substitution theory' but the most obvious text teaching that without out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins is Hebrews 9:22 which says exactly that.
If you want to see the teaching in practice, go to Job 42:7-9. Job's friends must make a sacrifice before God would accept Job's prayer for them. Obviously the blood of bulls, goats et al cannot take away sins, but they point to the true Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

 

[JonC]

I'm still involved with church and family business for a few more days, but there's just time for a quick post.
I have nothing to do with any 'penal substitution theory' but the most obvious text teaching that without out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins is Hebrews 9:22 which says exactly that.
If you want to see the teaching in practice, go to Job 42:7-9. Job's friends must make a sacrifice before God would accept Job's prayer for them. Obviously the blood of bulls, goats et al cannot take away sins, but they point to the true Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

If by the doctrine of Penal Substitution you mean without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, that Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the World, that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the World, that He died for our sins, that He shared our iniquitiy, that He was made in all things like us, that He was made sin for us, that He became a curse for us, that God laid our iniquitiy on Him, that He bore our sins, and that in Him we escape the wrath to come then I absolute agree.

It goes to what @37818 was saying. We need to be precise in our definitions lest we disagree where there is no actual disagreement

By Penal Substitution Theory I mean the false doctrine that that Christ experienced God's wrath instead of us experiencing God's wrath as a payment for our sins.

But you if you mean the biblical doctrine described in my first statement here, then then we are on the same page. It is the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement that I disagree with, not what is written in the Bible.

Hope that helps clarify.

 

[37818]

You were saved by God's grace and you believed. Ephesians 2:1-9.

Absolutely. It was explicitly "through faith," meaning that that faith preceded being saved, verse 8. God's grace, then faith, then salvation in that order.

 

[AustinC]

Absolutely. It was explicitly "through faith," meaning that that faith preceded being saved, verse 8. God's grace, then faith, then salvation in that order.

No.
The text says "while we were still dead..."
Unless you think you had faith while being in rebellion, you cannot be correct in your position.
Saved by grace is first.
Faith to believe is second. Faith is an effect of salvation, not a cause of salvation.

 

[AustinC]

Our sovereign God via His inspired word says we are saved because we believe yet you deny this and hold to your own errant view. So who really sees God as sovereign? Why do you continue to deny the clear text of scripture? You are trying to put yourself over God.

I hold to the whole of scripture. I have pointed to the whole of Romans 10 and Ephesians 1 as well as Ephesians 2. I have all of scripture. You continually attempt to wrestle scripture away from context to hang on a sentence (I have even seen you use half a sentence) for your terrible theology.

 

[JonC]

I hold to the whole of scripture. I have pointed to the whole of Romans 10 and Ephesians 1 as well as Ephesians 2. I have all of scripture. You continually attempt to wrestle scripture away from context to hang on a sentence (I have even seen you use half a sentence) for your terrible theology.

No you don't. You believe that God punished the Righteous in order to acquit the guilty. That is in no form adhering to the whole of Scripture.

 

[37818]

No.
The text says "while we were still dead..."
Unless you think you had faith while being in rebellion, you cannot be correct in your position.
Saved by grace is first.
Faith to believe is second. Faith is an effect of salvation, not a cause of salvation.

Everyone has some kind of faith. The very meaning of the words in the language we used is a matter of one's core faith. Not just what ever belief system one adheres to.

 

[Silverhair]

I hold to the whole of scripture. I have pointed to the whole of Romans 10 and Ephesians 1 as well as Ephesians 2. I have all of scripture. You continually attempt to wrestle scripture away from context to hang on a sentence (I have even seen you use half a sentence) for your terrible theology.

The fact you can not understand what a verse means or that even when you look at it in context the meaning is still supported really causes me to question your comprehension skills. You have constantly miss used scripture and at the same time you accuse others of doing so. You deny clear scripture as if you are the only one that can read and understand the words. You have let your philosophy overrule scripture.

Question, how were the verses I quoted wrestled away from the context? You make the claim now back it up or admit you were wrong.

 

[37818]

@Silverhair, our friend @AustinC has some different understandings which I believe affects not only how he interprets Scriptures but how he interprets what we mean in what we say. Arguments can go in circles. And it is not merely @AustinC but a consequence of certain points of view. For me this issue is an on going study.

 

[AustinC]

@Silverhair, our friend @AustinC has some different understandings which I believe affects not only how he interprets Scriptures but how he interprets what we mean in what we say. Arguments can go in circles. And it is not merely @AustinC but a consequence of certain points of view. For me this issue is an on going study.

Indeed, neither you nor Silverhair believe that God is Supreme over every molecule so that nothing in all creation is unaccounted for.

A dead person cannot have faith that causes God to save them. The Bible doesn't teach that they can. Yet, here you and Silverhair teach man's will as the supreme force that causes God to save.

 

[Silverhair]

Indeed, neither you nor Silverhair believe that God is Supreme over every molecule so that nothing in all creation is unaccounted for.

A dead person cannot have faith that causes God to save them. The Bible doesn't teach that they can. Yet, here you and Silverhair teach man's will as the supreme force that causes God to save.

We do not force God to save us He saves us because we have met the condition that He has made for salvation, faith in the Son. You just can not not accept that so you cling to your errant view. I have said on a number of posts that you just need to trust scripture as it is written rather than read into it what you want to find. As long as you continue to deny scripture you will be in error.

 

[37818]

Indeed, neither you nor Silverhair believe that God is Supreme over every molecule so that nothing in all creation is unaccounted for.

This type of false accusation is do to your wrong headed belief system. I have always believed in God's absolute omniscience, omnipresence and sovereignty over His creation.

A dead person cannot have faith that causes God to save them.

Faith does not cause anything. It is faith that is caused by truth claims. Everyone has some kind faith.