A Penal Substitution Theory Interpretation

[AustinC]

This type of false accusation is do to your wrong headed belief system. I have always believed in God's absolute omniscience, omnipresence and sovereignty over His creation.

Faith does not cause anything. It is faith that is caused by truth claims. Everyone has some kind faith.

Faith is caused by truth claims?

Let's break that down.

1) Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
2) Jesus is God.
Therefore
3) God causes one to have faith.

This faith comes after God has made a person alive with Christ (while we were still dead).

You really need to spend time reading and studying these passages rather than making things up.

Dead people don't have faith in a God whom they don't think they need. Your idea that all people are born with innate faith is just a fantasy of your own making.

 

[37818]

Faith is caused by truth claims?

Let's break that down.

1) Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
2) Jesus is God.
Therefore
3) God causes one to have faith.

This faith comes after God has made a person alive with Christ (while we were still dead).

You really need to spend time reading and studying these passages rather than making things up.

Dead people don't have faith in a God whom they don't think they need. Your idea that all people are born with innate faith is just a fantasy of your own making.

Mixing truth with error never makes the error true
John 17:17, ". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ." Romans 10:17, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ."

Romans 10:13-15 teaches belief precedes salvation.

 

[AustinC]

Mixing truth with error never makes the error true
John 17:17, ". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ." Romans 10:17, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ."

Romans 10:13-15 teaches belief precedes salvation.

Then stop your error. I quoted the full section of Romans 10 so you could see your error, yet here you are still presenting an error that you cling to.
If you actually read the whole, you will see your error.
Romans 10:6-21

But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

It is right in front of your eyes. Dead men don't believe until God calls their name. Then they follow the shepherd of their souls.

May God remove the scales in front of your eyes.

 

[37818]

Then stop your error. I quoted the full section of Romans 10 so you could see your error, . . .

What error? Belief precedes salvation.

 

[37818]

Then stop your error. I quoted the full section of Romans 10 so you could see your error, yet here you are still presenting an error that you cling to.
If you actually read the whole, you will see your error.
Romans 10:6-21

But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

It is right in front of your eyes. Dead men don't believe until God calls their name. Then they follow the shepherd of their souls.

May God remove the scales in front of your eyes.

The word of God that that faith, verse 17, came by, ". . . sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.". Per Psalms 19:4.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If by the doctrine of Penal Substitution you mean without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, that Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the World, that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the World, that He died for our sins, that He shared our iniquitiy, that He was made in all things like us, that He was made sin for us, that He became a curse for us, that God laid our iniquitiy on Him, that He bore our sins, and that in Him we escape the wrath to come then I absolute agree.
I have given a definition of the Doctrine of Penal Substitution so many times that it must surely be as wearing to you reading it as to me writing over and over again.
What I would like to know from you is
1. In what way is the Lord Jesus the propitiation for the sins of the world?
2. In what sense did He die for our sins and what did His death achieved. i
3. In what sense did God lay our iniquity upon Him?
4. What does it mean that He became a curse for us? Who cursed Him?
5. How exactly has He borne our sins
6. Precisely how do we escape the coming wrath through Him.

It goes to what @37818 was saying. We need to be precise in our definitions lest we disagree where there is no actual disagreement

I absolutely agree, and I am sure therefore that you will be as precise as possible in answering these questions.

 

[AustinC]

The word of God that that faith, verse 17, came by, ". . . sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.". Per Psalms 19:4.

If God spoke to each person and said " come forth" then everyone would be saved.
You are between a rock and a hard place here. Either God universally saves everyone, or human will is greater and more supreme than God's will. You have to accept one or the other to make your theology be consistent without contradiction.

Otherwise, you have to admit that God chooses particular people and has mercy on whom he wills. (Romans 9)

 

[AustinC]

What error? Belief precedes salvation.

Dead men believe?

That is not taught in the Bible.

 

[37818]

If God spoke to each person and said " come forth" then everyone would be saved.

You have a false view of God on this matter.

 

[37818]

Dead men believe?

That is not taught in the Bible.

An irrational rant.
Dead people don't breathe or eat.

 

[JonC]

What I would like to know from you is
1. In what way is the Lord Jesus the propitiation for the sins of the world?
2. In what sense did He die for our sins and what did His death achieved. i
3. In what sense did God lay our iniquity upon Him?
4. What does it mean that He became a curse for us? Who cursed Him?
5. How exactly has He borne our sins
6. Precisely how do we escape the coming wrath through Him.

The Lord Jesus the Propitiation for the sins of the world because it is in Him that man is reborn (or recreated, born of the Spirit, cleansed) and therefore escape the wrath to come. Christ died for our sins. He is sinless but He "shared in our infirmity". The wages of sin is death. He experienced those wages, however they were earned by us, not Him. The Cross was God reconciling man to Himself, and it is on this basis that we plead with men to be reconciled to God. God lay our iniquity upon Him in the sense that He became like us in every way, to include suffering under sin...but this was OUR sin, not His own. Another way of saying this is that He became a curse for us. Nobody cursed Him, but man considered Him accursed by God (and God vindicated Him against the error).

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
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[Martin Marprelate]

The Lord Jesus the Propitiation for the sins of the world because it is in Him that man is reborn (or recreated, born of the Spirit, cleansed) and therefore escape the wrath to come. Christ died for our sins. He is sinless but He "shared in our infirmity". The wages of sin is death. He experienced those wages, however they were earned by us, not Him. The Cross was God reconciling man to Himself, and it is on this basis that we plead with men to be reconciled to God. God lay our iniquity upon Him in the sense that He became like us in every way, to include suffering under sin...but this was OUR sin, not His own. Another way of saying this is that He became a curse for us. Nobody cursed Him, but man considered Him accursed by God (and God vindicated Him against the error).

In view of the thread closing, I will open a new one to respond to your post.

 

[Salty]

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