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A Perfect Righteousness

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Here it is in the Greek: Revelation 13:8 καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτῷ πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ὧν οὗ γέγραπται τὰ ὄνοματα ἐν τῇ βίβλῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

The last three words mean: from "from founding of the world", just as the KJV has it.
The issue is not using before when since appears in the Greek, the issue is applying the phrase to the wrong idea. Names were not written since the foundation of the world, rather than the mistranslation "Christ was slain from the foundation of the world."

Even a modicum of study should correct this misapprehension. You might start by comparing Revelation 17:8 with 13:8.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Rev. 17:8

"whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world; none but reprobates, not any of the elect of God, are the admirers and worshippers of antichrist; See Gill on Rev 13:8."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Revelation 17:8.

"whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; by which book is meant God's predestination of men to eternal life, or his decree of election; why this is called the "book of life"; see Gill on Rev 3:5; and their "names being written therein from the foundation of the world", Rev 17:8, for such a construction the words will bear, denotes that election is eternal, and is not an act of time, nor dependent upon anything done in time; and that it is of particular persons, and not of bodies of men, of nations and churches, and still less of propositions, or of persons so and so qualified, or under such conditions and circumstances; and that it is perfectly well known to God, and is sure and certain in its effects, and is unchangeable and irrevocable; for what is written in it, is written, and will always stand, not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign grace of God; and this is called the Lamb's book; that is, Christ, who is compared to a Lamb for its harmlessness, meekness, and patience, and was typified by the lambs in the legal sacrifices; and this book is called his, because he was present at the making of it, and was concerned in putting down the names in it, John 13:18, and he himself stands first in it as the elect of God, and the head of all the elect, who, as members, were chosen in him: the act of election was made in him, and stands sure in him; and he is the author and giver of that life, which men are chosen unto both here and hereafter: and he may be said to be "slain from the foundation of the world"; in the decree and purpose of God, by which he was set forth, or foreappointed to be the propitiation for sin, and was foreordained, before the foundation of the world, to redeem his people by his blood, and in the promise of God immediately after the fall of man, that the seed of the woman should have his heel bruised, and he himself should bruise the serpent's head, which made it as sure as if it was then done; and in the sacrifices, which were immediately upon this offered up, and were types of the death and sacrifice of Christ; and in the faith of the saints, which brings distant things near, and considers them as if present; and also in his members, in Abel, and others, in whom he suffered, as he still does in his people; to which may be added, that such is the efficacy of the bloodshed and death of Christ, that it reached to all the saints from the beginning of the world, for the justification of their persons, the atonement of their sins, and cleansing from them; for the remission of sins, that are past, and for the redemption of transgressions under the first testament; for Old Testament saints from the beginning are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, as New Testament ones are. ... Now such whose names are not written in this book of the Lamb, who have no interest in electing grace, nor in redemption by Christ, the slain Lamb of God, nor any right unto eternal life, who are reprobate persons, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, who are foreordained to condemnation, and are given up to believe a lie, that they might be damned."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Revelation 13:8
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world; none but reprobates, not any of the elect of God, are the admirers and worshippers of antichrist; See Gill on Rev 13:8."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Revelation 17:8.

"whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; by which book is meant God's predestination of men to eternal life, or his decree of election; why this is called the "book of life"; see Gill on Rev 3:5; and their "names being written therein from the foundation of the world", Rev 17:8, for such a construction the words will bear, denotes that election is eternal, and is not an act of time, nor dependent upon anything done in time; and that it is of particular persons, and not of bodies of men, of nations and churches, and still less of propositions, or of persons so and so qualified, or under such conditions and circumstances; and that it is perfectly well known to God, and is sure and certain in its effects, and is unchangeable and irrevocable; for what is written in it, is written, and will always stand, not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign grace of God; and this is called the Lamb's book; that is, Christ, who is compared to a Lamb for its harmlessness, meekness, and patience, and was typified by the lambs in the legal sacrifices; and this book is called his, because he was present at the making of it, and was concerned in putting down the names in it, John 13:18, and he himself stands first in it as the elect of God, and the head of all the elect, who, as members, were chosen in him: the act of election was made in him, and stands sure in him; and he is the author and giver of that life, which men are chosen unto both here and hereafter: and he may be said to be "slain from the foundation of the world"; in the decree and purpose of God, by which he was set forth, or foreappointed to be the propitiation for sin, and was foreordained, before the foundation of the world, to redeem his people by his blood, and in the promise of God immediately after the fall of man, that the seed of the woman should have his heel bruised, and he himself should bruise the serpent's head, which made it as sure as if it was then done; and in the sacrifices, which were immediately upon this offered up, and were types of the death and sacrifice of Christ; and in the faith of the saints, which brings distant things near, and considers them as if present; and also in his members, in Abel, and others, in whom he suffered, as he still does in his people; to which may be added, that such is the efficacy of the bloodshed and death of Christ, that it reached to all the saints from the beginning of the world, for the justification of their persons, the atonement of their sins, and cleansing from them; for the remission of sins, that are past, and for the redemption of transgressions under the first testament; for Old Testament saints from the beginning are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, as New Testament ones are. ... Now such whose names are not written in this book of the Lamb, who have no interest in electing grace, nor in redemption by Christ, the slain Lamb of God, nor any right unto eternal life, who are reprobate persons, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, who are foreordained to condemnation, and are given up to believe a lie, that they might be damned."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Revelation 13:8
Here this poster rejects the KJV, the NKJV, the NASB, the ESV, the NIV, the CSB and the LEB. There seems to be no hope train coming down the tracks. Just regurgitation.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Here this poster rejects the KJV, the NKJV, the NASB, the ESV, the NIV, the CSB and the LEB. There seems to be no hope train coming down the tracks. Just regurgitation.

Revelation 13:8
KJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
NKJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
NIV - "the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world."
LSV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
YLT1898 - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
WBMS - "the lamb, that was slain from the beginning of the world."
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Revelation 13:8
KJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
NKJV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
NIV - "the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world."
LSV - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
YLT1898 - "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
WBMS - "the lamb, that was slain from the beginning of the world."
LOL, I address Rev 17:8 and the poster pretends he does not understand how Rev. 17:8 tells translations what was done from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 translations that mirror the phraseology of Revelation 17:8 This is not rocket science.
CSB
All those who live on the earth will worship it, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

LEB
And all those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

NASB
All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.

NET
and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

NRSV
and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered.

WEB
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.

Note how often defenders of false doctrine rely on mistaken or poor translations to support fiction.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
That is the question for you. If you do not see the problem with sanctification in the present, when you claim it occurred before creation, there is nothing I can say.
In a sense, the elect were sanctified before creation by the Father, even before they were called in time according to Jude 1:1

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Explain how they were sanctified by God the Father prior to being called ?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In a sense, the elect were sanctified before creation by the Father, even before they were called in time according to Jude 1:1

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Explain how they were sanctified by God the Father prior to being called ?
No need. Your claim is false.
Jude 1:1 NASB
[ude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James,
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:1 NKJV
Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, beloved by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Those who are "the called" are those who have be set apart (sanctified) into Christ, where they are preserved.
 

Eternally Grateful

Active Member
romans 1:
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

the very first comment made in this letter is false.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Van

No need. Your claim is false.

Not according to the kjv and greek text,

Ἰούδας Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ δοῦλος ἀδελφὸς δὲ Ἰακώβου τοῖς ἐν θεῷ πατρὶ ἠγίασμένοις, καὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ τετηρημένοις κλητοῖς·

Notice the order in the greek text ?
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Van
Those who are "the called" are those who have be set apart (sanctified) into Christ, where they are preserved.

Those who were called in time had previously to being called # were Set apart or Loved/Sanctified by God the Father in choosing them in Christ before the foundation for the world Eph 1:4, they were preserved in Jesus Christ even from their mothers womb, and eventually called by the Gospel to Faith in Jesus Christ

They were called to be saints Rom 1:7

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

They were always Saints secretly in the bosom of the Father, but now openly
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@Van


Those who were called in time had previously to being called # were Set apart or Loved/Sanctified by God the Father in choosing them in Christ before the foundation for the world Eph 1:4, they were preserved in Jesus Christ even from their mothers womb, and eventually called by the Gospel to Faith in Jesus Christ

They were called to be saints Rom 1:7

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

They were always Saints secretly in the bosom of the Father, but now openly
Obviously no effort to address the fact Jude 1:1 does not say nor suggest, even in the Greek, that anyone was sanctified in Christ before they were individually called into Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Obviously no effort to address the fact Jude 1:1 does not say nor suggest, even in the Greek, that anyone was sanctified in Christ before they were individually called into Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness.
I did respond see post 51
 
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