A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

[trying2understand]

Ok, so this deacon at the local baptist church here in town was saved, right?

He gave his testimony when he joined the church. Told all about how he has faith in Jesus.

Did some good works. Got baptized, led some bible study groups, took kids to soccer & paintball to get them saved too, organized the church building expansion, etc.

Everybody believed that he is saved.

No doubt you guys would say he is too.

So after quite a few years of this, he has an affair with his secretary, divorces his wife, put his mother out of the house and into a nursing home, stops coming to church and shacks up with the girl friend.

But he's saved - right?

Faith followed by works. He's saved.

If he never turns from adultry - he's still saved - right?

 

[JustAsIAm]

Only he and the Lord know his heart and whether he was truely saved. If this is a true story, it is a very sad one.

 

[D28guy]

"Ok, so this deacon at the local baptist church here in town was saved, right?"

I dont know. I've heard testimonies from people who were bible study leaders, deacons, and church "officers" who were later born again. They were saying the right words, and playing religion. I recently read a testimony from a pastor who got up in front of his people one sunday morning and told them that the week earlier he responded...at home after the evening service...to his own "altar call" and was born again. He said he was a "minister" simply because that was the career decision he had made. But he had only been "playing church". He then gave his testimony, and invited anyone who wanted to know Christ as he now did, and he said half of his deacons responded.

This was in Billy Grahams "Decision" magazine.

But, hypothetical person you mentioned could very well be born again.

"He gave his testimony when he joined the church. Told all about how he has faith in Jesus.

Did some good works. Got baptized, led some bible study groups, took kids to soccer & paintball to get them saved too, organized the church building expansion, etc.

Everybody believed that he is saved.

No doubt you guys would say he is too."

Not necesarrily, but probably so.

"So after quite a few years of this, he has an affair with his secretary, divorces his wife, put his mother out of the house and into a nursing home, stops coming to church and shacks up with the girl friend..."

Sounds just like the "prodigal son".

"...But he's saved - right?"

If he was before, he still is. Absolutly. And in time he will come to his senses and return to his father, where he belongs. Just like the prodigal son did, who never became anyone elses son, did he?

Faith followed by works. He's saved."

If he was saved, yes.

"If he never turns from adultry - he's still saved - right?"

He will return from his adultery.

But...theoreticlly, yes. Even if he did not come to his senses and return, he would still be saved. He will suffer the loss of much rewards, but he will be saved.

We are not saved by being in a state of sinlessness at the moment of our death. That would be salvation by earning.

We are saved because we have embraced the Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless,

Mike

 

[DHK]

If he was saved initially, then he is still saved, sin not withstanding. David sinned too.
If he simply made a profession of faith and not was initially saved, then he's still not saved (unless of course he has repented recently).
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by trying2understand:

But he's saved - right?

Faith followed by works. He's saved.

If he never turns from adultry - he's still saved - right?

So then By their fruits you shall KNOW them...Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father who is in heaven... Matt 7.

Heb 6 makes it clear that if after coming to freedom in Christ - they choose to again be enslaved and return - they are lost.

Romans 2:13 says that "It is not the hearers of the law that are Just before God but the doers of the Law Will Be Justified"

The person may have been saved at one time - but they are now lost.

This is the consistent arminian view - that many non-Calvinist non-RC Christians take on that subject.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Trotter]

Topic: A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

At first blush, I would not have agreed with this statement. I mean, my understanding of what a 'personal relationship' with Jesus is a very personal, very intimate one. But, after reading the following posts, I see that not everyone shares my view.

Salvation is through the finished work of Jesus Christ, wrought on the cross on Calvary. That was, is, and will be the only work involved.

When we accept the facts of who Jesus is, what He did, and what He accomplished for us, salvation occurs. In other words, when we believe.

Salvation is through grace in that it was because of God's unmerited favor that He came as Jesus Christ to become the perfect sacrifice. We had done, nor could we ever do, anything to desrve this. It was by His own will and choice that God provided the Lamb.

Salvation is through faith in that belief is an act of faith. This is not a 'work' that we do, but it is a decision to act upon this belief. For example, I may know that a chair will hold me up, but until I exercise faith and sit in it, I have not trusted the chair.

Salvation is a gift of God. We canot earn it. We do not deserve it. It is not a right, but a priveledge. It costs us nothing, but cost God everything. There is no such thing as 'cheap grace'.

Salvation is not of works, so that no one can boast. If my salvation depended on me, then I would have something to brag about. But since it doesn't, I have no grounds for pride.

And if salvation was part God and part me, how do I know when I have met the requirements, or if I ever will? Those who say, "I'll find out when I get there" will never 'get there'.

We are created (remade) for good works, which are the natural outworking of salvation. Works come from salvation, not with, not before, but after. They are the 'fruits' of our salvation, not the 'seeds' of it.

As to the nature of this relationship, while marriage may show intimacy, it is not overly accurate. While I can be, and am, very intimate with my Lord, it is not as in a sexual relationship. There is very deep love, but it is not eros, but agape. He is the entire focus of my love, not the object of it.

This includes such things as pre-marital relationships, abortion, and sodomic behavior including purposely infertile relationships.

I do not understand the inclusion of these, as far as our relationship with Christ goes. The first two are sinful, and the third I find extremely offensive (comparing limiting the size of a family with homosexual behavior). My life should be a reflection of the relationship that I have with my Savior, yes. But including these (especially the third) was totally out of line. Outside of Catholic dogma, what difference would it make whatever choice that my wife and I make? It is a choice made based on her health, by the way (she wanted 12 kids).

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
By the way, I don't think Catholics believe that good works save you. If I am not mistaken, they believe that salvation is wholly because of God's grace.

In Christ,
Neal

OH? There are probably other things that you don't know as well. You're mistaken because of the use of similar language. Why do you think the Reformation took place?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
I don't understand why we Protestants emphasize Romans so much and neglect James, rather than reconcile both and give them equal weight, since they are both a part of God's Word.

In Christ,
Neal

Neal, there's no contradiction between Romans and James. The problem is with human understanding. Martin Luther struggled with James. However, it is easily understood and reconciled when one interprets James correctly. James is simple distinguishing between saving faith and a sterile cognitive belief or acceptance of fact. It is a matter of understanding what faith is. Works follow faith but have no part of salvation.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But works can never save, and is not part of salvation.

Absolutely, 100% agree!

As can faith never save (salvation is wholly of God's grace)! My problem is with emphasizing this "faith alone" bit when works are a very important part of a Christian's life. Protestants (especially Baptists) put so much emphasis on it that we tend to make people think that they should not worry about doing any good, just have an assent to truth of the gospel, and even if they don't have any works, they are saved. Works are somehow part of justification, thus the emphasis by James. I just haven't put it all together yet. (Please notice, I am diferring between salvation as a whole a the concept of being justified. Works most definitely do not save, which, if I am not mistaken, Catholics believe as well.)

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Neal, you're over-generalizing here. Your statement regarding Baptists is off base. This may be your preception but it's wrong. Also, you are wrong about what Catholics believe. They believe anything and everything since they are syncretic. Latin American Catholicism differs from Asian Catholicism that differs from European Catholicism that differs from American Catholicism.............

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by trying2understand:

But he's saved - right?

Faith followed by works. He's saved.

If he never turns from adultry - he's still saved - right?

So then By their fruits you shall KNOW them...Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of My Father who is in heaven... Matt 7.

Heb 6 makes it clear that if after coming to freedom in Christ - they choose to again be enslaved and return - they are lost.

Romans 2:13 says that "It is not the hearers of the law that are Just before God but the doers of the Law Will Be Justified"

The person may have been saved at one time - but they are now lost.

This is the consistent arminian view - that many non-Calvinist non-RC Christians take on that subject.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE] 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Trotter:
Topic: A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

At first blush, I would not have agreed with this statement. I mean, my understanding of what a 'personal relationship' with Jesus is a very personal, very intimate one. But, after reading the following posts, I see that not everyone shares my view.

Salvation is through the finished work of Jesus Christ, wrought on the cross on Calvary. That was, is, and will be the only work involved.

When we accept the facts of who Jesus is, what He did, and what He accomplished for us, salvation occurs. In other words, when we believe.

Salvation is through grace in that it was because of God's unmerited favor that He came as Jesus Christ to become the perfect sacrifice. We had done, nor could we ever do, anything to desrve this. It was by His own will and choice that God provided the Lamb.

Salvation is through faith in that belief is an act of faith. This is not a 'work' that we do, but it is a decision to act upon this belief. For example, I may know that a chair will hold me up, but until I exercise faith and sit in it, I have not trusted the chair.

Salvation is a gift of God. We canot earn it. We do not deserve it. It is not a right, but a priveledge. It costs us nothing, but cost God everything. There is no such thing as 'cheap grace'.

Salvation is not of works, so that no one can boast. If my salvation depended on me, then I would have something to brag about. But since it doesn't, I have no grounds for pride.

And if salvation was part God and part me, how do I know when I have met the requirements, or if I ever will? Those who say, "I'll find out when I get there" will never 'get there'.

We are created (remade) for good works, which are the natural outworking of salvation. Works come from salvation, not with, not before, but after. They are the 'fruits' of our salvation, not the 'seeds' of it.

As to the nature of this relationship, while marriage may show intimacy, it is not overly accurate. While I can be, and am, very intimate with my Lord, it is not as in a sexual relationship. There is very deep love, but it is not eros, but agape. He is the entire focus of my love, not the object of it.

This includes such things as pre-marital relationships, abortion, and sodomic behavior including purposely infertile relationships.

I do not understand the inclusion of these, as far as our relationship with Christ goes. The first two are sinful, and the third I find extremely offensive (comparing limiting the size of a family with homosexual behavior). My life should be a reflection of the relationship that I have with my Savior, yes. But including these (especially the third) was totally out of line. Outside of Catholic dogma, what difference would it make whatever choice that my wife and I make? It is a choice made based on her health, by the way (she wanted 12 kids).

In Christ,
Trotter

As the Bible portrays it, marriage is an excellent picture of our relationship with our Lord. However, the problem is with our modern understanding of marriage in primarily a sexual context. This is false. Sex is not the main thing in marriage. When two people fornicate, they are NOT married even though they have entered into a sexual relationship. Marriage is not even consummated by sex which is a Roman Catholic idea. Joseph and Mary were married (Matt. 1:20-25, Luke 2:5) even though they had no sexual relations until after the birth of Christ!

Marriage is a covenant of companionship. Furthermore, love of the Hollywood type (i.e. sensual-physical-emotional sense) has little to do with it. Read your Bibles.

 

[neal4christ]

Neal, there's no contradiction between Romans and James.

I glad you understand that because I agree that there is no contradiction.

I am sorry that you don't like my comment about Baptists. But I am one, and have been for a while, so that is more of my personal experience. Also, many of my held beliefs have never been examined and I have gone along with the crowd. However, I think it is high time for me to examine WHY I hold to certain beliefs. I can't help it that people don't like it when I examine and question common held beliefs. If they are true, there is no worry and they will hold up under scrutiny. Truth is like that.

You can say all you want about my misconceptions, but I have found things straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I find many half-truths and outright lies being spread about Catholicism. You must remember, up until a year ago I considered the Catholic Church the "whore of Babylon."

As for faith and works, I agree that works do not save. What is so hard to understand about that? I have said it before. But REAL faith is not void of works. So is it really faith alone (could you look up in Scripture where faith alone is mentioned, please)? Faith without works is not real faith, it is dead, right? So how can you say that it is faith alone? Faith is absolutely necessary and the means that God mediates his grace, but simple assent with the mind is not enough. Faith will work itself out, or it is not faith at all. I see works as more of a ratification of the claimed faith, but the faith is absolutely necessary or the work is meaningless.

I just saw a conversation on another website by an ex-member here and he said that living a good life will never get anyone into heaven and that faith is the key. He is Catholic. Now whose word am I going to take? His own, or yours telling me what he believes?

In Christ,
Neal

[ March 24, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[Johnv]

*deleted*

I understand you were making a point, but this board is to be child friendly and there are certain things children don't need to read about.
Thanks for understanding.
Gina

[ March 29, 2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Gina L ]

 

[Russ Kelly]

May I join this free-for-all?

James is saying that works are the EVIDENCE of faith. He is not saying that works contribute to justification. At least initially, a true born-again person should exhibit works as evidence of his true saving faith. Any subsequent sin brings him under the chastisement of God as His child.

We are forgetting that both Paul and James are bouncing their thoughts off Genesis 15:5 "Abraham believed God, and it (his faith) was counted to him for righteousness (justification).

Where does the Bible say "faith ALONE"? Genesis 15:5 and Ephesisans 2:8,9 DEMAND this interpretaton. When we add any amount of works to faith in order to be justified, then it is no longer faith.

Question? "If" works must be added to fiath in order for a person to be justified -- thne I ask you -- How many works? What kind of works? How long do we have to keep adding works?

The answer to this question, in the RC mind, leads to the doctrine of Purgatory, unless one had committed a mortal sin and died without confession.

 

[neal4christ]

At least initially, a true born-again person should exhibit works as evidence of his true saving faith.

You say "initially" and "should." Do you hold that there is a possibility that someone can go through the rest of their life after their confession of Christ and not have one iota of evidence that they are saved, and yet they really are? I am going to start a thread soon as to this topic (hopefully by next week) because there are many verses in Scripture that make me pause and think about this OSAS stuff.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[neal4christ]

Where does the Bible say "faith ALONE"?

The only time the phrase "faith alone" is mentioned in Scripture is James 2:24:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24, RSV

As to putting a number to works, I do not believe that is the case. Works are in keeping with the faith. A work without faith is absolutely useless. Just like faith without works is absolutely dead. You can try to separate the two, but neither do you any good then. People are good at just doing works to "earn" something. However, faith is the key and necessary. I see works as more of ratifying the professed faith, thus justifying the individual who claims to have faith.

As for Abraham, would faith alone been enough for him? Or did he actually do something based on his faith? If he never did anything, was that real faith he had? Or was it dead and lifeless? Even he did not have faith alone. But he did have faith and exercised it by doing something based on that faith.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
I don't know what you are reading, but Holy Scripture says that Salvation is not of works. Holy Scriptures tell me that Justification is what Jesus did on our behalf when he Died to take away the penalty for All the sins of the world, thus justifying us before the throne of God. Holy Scriptures tell me that FAITH in God is what Sanctifies us, that is, separates the sheep from the goats. Thus it is FAITH ALONE that saves us.

 

[neal4christ]

Sorry, but it is grace alone that saves. I will stick with what the Bible says.

Also, DHK, I don't know how to take your post, whether it was to refute me or you have an issue with Yeslew. If it is to refute me, could you comment on Abraham. If he just had faith but did nothing would that have been enough for him?

In Christ,
Neal

 

[Russ Kelly]

Neal
What about my other points?

Concerning OSAS, if you call yourself a Conservative Baptist and do not believe this, then perhsps you are really a Methodist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, or something else. Baptists should not waste their time arguing OSAS because it is WHAT BAPTISTS ARE!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Sorry, but it is grace alone that saves. I will stick with what the Bible says.

Also, DHK, I don't know how to take your post, whether it was to refute me or you have an issue with Yeslew. If it is to refute me, could you comment on Abraham. If he just had faith but did nothing would that have been enough for him?

In Christ,
Neal

My post was simply to use what Yelsew had already said in refutation of what you stated.
Any person reading Eph.2:8,9 and understanding it, cannot walk away from it and say that it does not teach that salvation is by faith alone. It is impossible to come to any other conclusion without spiritualizing or allegorizing the text.

The Bible, in Romans 4, teaches that Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. The Bible is plain on this.

Romans 4:1-5 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
--What has Abraham gained by doing good works? Do good works save?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
--If Abraham or anyone else thinks that they can be justified by their works they got something else coming to them (bad news). They can glory in what they have done. They can boast about it. That's called pride, and it's sin. So, yeah, go ahead and boast--but not before God. He doesn't accept it.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--What does the Bible say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to Him for righteousness. He was saved by faith in God, and by faith alone. This beleif was before he did any works. He believed in God before he left Ur of Chaldees, before any of the recorded works in the Bible are mentioned. It is not the works that justified him. He was made righteous in the sight of God simply on account of his faith or belief.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--What is the teaching here?
If you work, what is your reward? A gift? I should say not. It is a wage--something that you deserve. You work for 8 hours for $10.00/hour than you deserve $80.00 at the end of that 8 hours. You worked for it. You deserve it. It is reckoned to you (by your employer) as a debt.
But if your wife sat at home, not working at all, and your neighbor came and gave her $80.00 as a gift with no strings attached, then that would be grace. It would be something that she didn't work for and probably didn't deserve. Grace is undeserved favor. She received something she didn't deserve or work for.

Abraham received salvation--something he didn't deserve or work for. He simply received it by faith and faith alone.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Like the illustration with your wife--she didn't work, she simply received the gift believing his word that there were no strings attached.
Salvation is like that: Believing Christ on His Word--faith in his sacrifice with no strings attached; that is faith alone.
To him that does not work, but believes on Him that justifies the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.
That is how grace and faith work together. The gift is given by the giver in grace. The gift is received by the recipient by faith, and faith alone. There are no works involved on the part of the recipient. All the work is done on the part of the giver. That is where the grace is.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith."
DHK